I screwed up again

[VeronicaV]

NW626,

You are priceless, that was too funny. Thanks for the chuckle, it really helps.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

AN,

I am strongly in favor of exposing affairs to the cheating spouse's family, but ONLY if they are pro-marriage and pro-YOUR marriage, and you think they'll be supportive. But if they are, then "a", they should know the truth, and "b", maybe they can bring some pressure to bear.

Of COURSE it will piss your wife off. But that's neither here nor there. Mine got over it, and actually THANKED me later, for fighting for her.

Puppy

[AnotherNightmare]

Thank you for all your opinions and input, NW, Beth, and PDT. Currently, I am not planning to bring the subject up with her family. They are already grieving the aunt who is passing away very soon. That would just be insensitive on my side.
But I am very sure they are all pro-marriage and pro-MY-marriage, at least that is what they said 11 years ago. The other point is that my W does not think she is cheating. When I read the e-mails though (which is how I found out), the topics of conversation did not leave any room for doubt. If things do not improve over the next couple of weeks and she actually pushes things forward, for example by telling her family that she is getting a divorce, I may have to use this to knock some sense into her. I want her to understand in the end (I know right now she is lightyears away from admitting any of this) that we are both responsible for the mess we got ourselves into, but that she is responsible for her decision to again start an A. In the meantime, I will definitely work on me and getting my PMA back.

I hate to make you all feel guilty about your exercise. I think I mentioned it before, I was planning for a marathon last Sunday, until I pulled a calf muscle a little over a week before the race. So I usually run between 8 and 12 miles a day (6 days a week) and on Saturday I run somewhere between 16 and 22 miles. Yesterday was my first run after the injury and today I did another 9 miles. When I cannot run, I do not really feel very upbeat, and then my W dropped the bomb almost the same day I got injured, it was definitely a new low for me.

One of my problems with DBing is that I do not really need to GAL, no need to lose weight, no need to start exercising or finding a new hobby. I could go out a little more, but with the travel job I eat dinner with colleagues three times a week, meet with friends for lunch on Fridays every once in a while and meet with my running clubbers once a week. That is essentially how I pulled emotionally out of my M. Unfortunately I only realize that now and not when I was doing it.
What I failed to do (at least that is what she says) was to spend quality time with the kids and her. With the kids, I honestly disagree, but I will nevertheless work on improving that, maybe just ensure better that she notices, with her, I completely agree, but that was mutual, and if I want to seriously DB, that will and cannot change anytime soon.

There are also a few games that she has played with me constantly, and I have no idea how to work on those. The one game is "mind-reading", the other one I call "getting historical".
When she plays the "mind-reading" game, she typically says: "You have done this. Do you know how that makes me feel?" If I say "yes", but have no idea, it makes me look dumb. If I say "no", she thinks I am insensitive, and she is not going to tell me anyway. So I lose either way.
In the "getting historical" game, she takes advantage of my weak memory. She brings up things from years ago to prove her point that I am this or that. For the most part, I simply cannot remember. Sometimes I feel she makes things up, and when I disagree, she simply points to my memory weakness. Stupid games, but they drive me crazy, so I typically try to avoid playing them, which of course did not help the situation either. How do I work on something like that?

AN

[techguy]

But somehow I need to make it clear to my W that if she pulls the trigger on the D, I am going to tell them the entire truth including the EA.

Hi AN,

You should think carefully about this. Trying to threaten your wife with bad things if she divorces you doesn't seem to be in the spirit of DBing. The only way this works is for you to get her to love you again.

So there are appropriate ways to talk to wife about OM. For example, many people set boundaries (i.e. I won't let you openly communicate with OM when you live in 'our' house).

Other people might tell relatives about OM now (i.e Puppy). But that is something that would just be 'done'. It wouldn't be used as a threat against wife.

Personally, based on your situation, I wouldn't involve relatives right now and I certainly wouldn't threaten wife with telling later.

[healthydad]

Hi AN -
Just read through your thread...and, well...you strike me as a fixer...and sometimes the role of a fixer (which so many of us play here) just doesn't happen to work in a lasting way with someone that needs more validation.

You mentioned that you didn't need to GAL - and that made me wince a bit - not because I doubted you - but because I thought the same thing about me and my situation. I play soccer (fussball) on Sundays and would practice on Tuesday nights - I also run at least four days a week...and the problem here was that I didn't realize just what it meant for me to GAL - or to find myself...

Reading your thread, I just kept thinking that you're putting a lot of the "blame" for the situation on your W - and perhaps aren't fully considering what brought you (not both of you, just the singular you (du, dich, dir)) to this situation.

My W played the same games you're talking about - and also asked the same kind of yes or no questions. Dudess - in another thread - talked about no longer giving in to her H's questions that were framed with "authorized answers" - and it made a lot of sense to me...that said, I still think there's a lot of work to be done in all marriages in terms of validation - and listening without trying to fix things. Sometimes validation isn't about saying yes or no - but mores about just repeating what is said as a way of letting her know that you've heard what she's had to say...

Have you read the Divorce Remedy book? I found it just slightly more useful than Divorce Busting. Especially when rereading the book after being in my situation for over a month...oh...and in case you haven't come across it yet - read Coach's sticky post in newcomers:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1629724&page=1#Post1629724

[gucci loafer]

There are also a few games that she has played with me constantly, and I have no idea how to work on those. The one game is "mind-reading", the other one I call "getting historical".
When she plays the "mind-reading" game, she typically says: "You have done this. Do you know how that makes me feel?" If I say "yes", but have no idea, it makes me look dumb. If I say "no", she thinks I am insensitive, and she is not going to tell me anyway. So I lose either way.
In the "getting historical" game, she takes advantage of my weak memory. She brings up things from years ago to prove her point that I am this or that. For the most part, I simply cannot remember. Sometimes I feel she makes things up, and when I disagree, she simply points to my memory weakness. Stupid games, but they drive me crazy, so I typically try to avoid playing them, which of course did not help the situation either. How do I work on something like that?

You have been married for 17 YEARS and you really don't have a clue on what your wife may be thinking or feeling?(shame on you)You have to remember that many women want you to be so in tune with them that you DO seem to read their mind. Women HATE it and resent it when they feel they have to TELL you what to do or how they feel. I think you should put much of your effort into LEARNING how to "read" your wife. Trying to educate HER so that she "should" just learn to tell you these things seems to not helped too much. I would recommend learning to be in tune with her feelings. (and you CAN)

For example, when she says "You have done this. Do you know how that makes me feel?"

Your answer should ALWAYS be something like this...

"yes, I know that I have been insensitive to your feelings and it probably makes you feel like I don't care about them. I'm sorry and know that when I "do this" it makes you feel bad."

That's it. Agree with HER view of you. Apologize, be sincere about it, and let her know that you understand that it makes her feel bad. It isn't rocket science. I don't even know her and I can tell you that when a woman says "do you know how that makes me feel" means that she is feeling not heard or that you don't think or care about her feelings and are not thoughtful and are not in tune with who she is. If you really don't know how the things you do make her feel after 17 years, then it is no wonder she is feeling this way.

Become wise. Be thoughtful of her feelings in whatever you do or say. Let her see that you DO take her feelings into consideration. Let her see that you are in tune with her moods and feelings. Women just want to feel and know that you care and are thoughtful of their moods and feelings and wants and needs. Strong and silent works well.

In the "getting historical" game, she takes advantage of my weak memory. She brings up things from years ago to prove her point that I am this or that. For the most part, I simply cannot remember.

Here is how to deal with the "historical" game.

First stop calling it a game. It very may well be a serious issue with her. Why are you downplaying what she feels of things in the past? It points back to you are not in tune with "do you know how that makes me feel" issue.

Simple answer again...

"Yes honey, I know I did that and I am sorry for hurting you.
I know I am insensitive to how you feel and I need to stop doing that".....

Agree... be sincere.. Just keep saying this same mantra over and over and over if she keeps bringing things up. What you are going to discover is that when you tell her and keep telling her that you are a DAM, she will start to soften. She may even start to tell you that you are NOT always that way, but there are times when she feels you are. Just agree that, "yes, you know you aren't always that way, but you do understand her point and agree that you NEED to stop...

Stay on this track.. Consistent. Sincere. In touch with HER feelings....

These things WORK with women....

[AnotherNightmare]

techguy,

I agree that I cannot threaten her. She is in denial that there is an EA right now and believes she has done nothing wrong. It was her "right" to make this step. I guess she will have to come to the conclusion on her own that she is about to destroy more than the M she does care about anymore.

somberbrow,

You made a couple of good points. I agree with you I have always tried to help solve her problems. I was not a good listener. I honestly thought that was what she was asking for. I guess I have been wrong all these years.
Regarding GAL, I am going by what a lot of people here seem to start doing. I am doing all these things. What I was looking for in my M was some down time that I could spend with my W and my kids. But that happened less and less, and I felt completely powerless to do anything about it. In the few days I have been posting here, I am starting to realize thanks to you and other people what I could have done differently and what I need to do differently now. For me, I do not believe, it is the typical GAL stuff, but I have not quite figured what it is. So if you want to elaborate on your ideas, that would be very welcome.
I am trying hard not to blame her for anything that led to this point. What I do blame her for is the fact that she decided to pursue an EA without coming to a conclusion with our M. Again, maybe I should not even do that, because I should not have ignored the writing on the wall.

GL,

Thank you for opening my eyes a little more. You point out some very good points. How can I spend 17 years next to your W and not understand her? Based on what she is saying I have lost that capability. She keeps telling me that something changed after the first couple of years. I guess I changed, but I cannot seem to answer the question why I changed. Maybe the answer does not even matter, and I just need to follow your advice, even though my own hurt feelings and the heat of the situation try to get in the way sometimes.

Many thanks to everybody for your feedback.

AN

[gucci loafer]

Stop worrying about the past. What is done is done on your end.
The key here is to get on track NOW. Be observant. Be consistent.

GL,

Thank you for opening my eyes a little more. You point out some very good points. How can I spend 17 years next to your W and not understand her? Based on what she is saying I have lost that capability. She keeps telling me that something changed after the first couple of years. I guess I changed, but I cannot seem to answer the question why I changed. Maybe the answer does not even matter, and I just need to follow your advice, even though my own hurt feelings and the heat of the situation try to get in the way sometimes.

Same answer and same routine that I explained to you earlier. Go back and read my advice and then follow it.....

Here is your "standard" answer to her on most anything she says about the past or your past behavior...

"Yes honey, I can see that something did change after the first couple of years. It seems to me that I didn't let you feel heard or that I made you feel like I didn't take your feelings into consideration and that probably made you feel as if I didn't love you or care about you. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been that way to you.. You are right. I can see why you feel that way. I would feel the same way if someone did that to me." (notice how often you need to say things worded with "how she FEELS or FELT)(women associate with FEELINGS, so use that word or variance of that word)

That's it. Tell her she is right. You most certainly agree with how she would feel that way. You are sorry. You are wrong.

Be consistent. Be sincere. Drop the subject and move on and be nice...

Over and over and over... No relationship talk. NO talk of "can't you see how I have changed", no groveling or feeling sorry for yourself, no "what about MY feelings" and so on.. You are a big boy and you can handle anything life has to offer. Strong, silent... (and YET.. in touch with how she feels)

Get it?

It works.. Get started... No time to waste feeling sorry for yourself or overanalyzing. It isn't rocket science once you get the grasp of it. You will actually be wondering why you didn't know this stuff sooner. It takes all the pressure of knowing what she wants or what to say.... Works like a charm. I have been using it successfully for years and years...

[gucci loafer]

How can I spend 17 years next to your W and not understand her?

I would hope you haven't spent 17 years next to MY wife... LOL...
(just kidding to lighten you up)

I know what you meant.. (sound kinda familiar to how maybe you should be learning to read your wife?

Good for you. The first step is admitting that you have not been paying attention, but should have. NOW get started....

Based on what she is saying I have lost that capability.

How about we change that to "based on what she is FEELING I have lost that capability?"...

That is about to change... NO?

[AnotherNightmare]

GL,

Thank you for your encouragement and excellent words of wisdom! I guess I get the theory, and now it comes down to "practice, practice, practice", something I should know how to do.

The good news today: my W called on her own account to check in on me and the kids (at least that is what she said). I am really upbeat today about this. I asked her about her mother and her aunt (showing my genuine interest - no "acting as if" necessary here) and told her that I am glad she went to spend some of the last hours of her aunt's life at her side and I could only imagine how important it would be for her to be with her mom at this difficult time. She did not say anything, but she sounded like she truly appreciated me saying that.

I think all this would be a lot easier if there was not OM. But I know I need to stop thinking that I could impact the EA directly. I need to focus on what I can do and that will eventually impact what she does and feels.

Thanks again for opening my eyes!

AN