Myself I think there are a lot of other options. However, one thing I was not clear on.... whats the ultimatum exactly. What do you have to do in those 2 years, or are you out anyway??
If that's the case, then Id say option #3 is take your power back! From the sounds of it you are emotionally abused. I'm sorry if that is harsh, but no one has the right to talk to anyone that way, no matter the circumstance. :S
Ask yourself, is this the life you want? Is this how you want to be treated, and how you want your marriage to continue. Can you settle?? Is this what you want for the rest of your marriage?
Why the ultimatum? In 2 years, our youngest child will graduate from high school, and presumably move off to to college. At that point, my wife will no longer need my income. So at that point, in her estimation, I am a disposable asset - and she will dispose of me. She is using me to pay for the upkeep of her children, and once that task is done, she is done with me. That is the harsh reality that I am facing.
No, I do not like being treated this way. No, I am not a masochist. Yes, I want to take back my power. Now, how do I do this? I have been trying for several months now, and I have made little or no progress.
"Now she has hit me with an ultimatum: either I need to leave in the next 2 years, or she will throw me out. Effectively, she has given me a timeline, until she will divorce me. I have two years left, and after both of our children are out of the house, she is going to toss me aside. She doesn't care what I think, at this point.
What should I do in these circumstances? Should I go back to the weak, passive man that I was before? Is this the only way to save my marriage, under these circumstances? Or should I continue this process, and see my marriage slowly deteriorate to nothing? Those seem like the only 2 options at this point. Any other suggestions?"
No, you should not go back. You and your self-respect are far more important than your "marriage". You must never trade the first for the second - or you will end up with nothing. What's so great about this marriage anyway - what joy, happiness, fulfilment etc has it truly brought you? As you will have read in nmmng, becoming an integrated man is NOT about trying ideas out for a few months in the hope that your wife will notice and reward you (covert contract). Its about taking back control of yourself, your thoughts, your manhood and your whole life. Now that you are doing this, now that your marriage is being steadily stripped of all your niceguyisms and denial, its becoming quite obvious that your wife (previously put on a throne by you) is in reality a bitch.
"Why the ultimatum? In 2 years, our youngest child will graduate from high school, and presumably move off to to college. At that point, my wife will no longer need my income. So at that point, in her estimation, I am a disposable asset - and she will dispose of me. She is using me to pay for the upkeep of her children, and once that task is done, she is done with me. That is the harsh reality that I am facing.
No, I do not like being treated this way. No, I am not a masochist. Yes, I want to take back my power. Now, how do I do this? I have been trying for several months now, and I have made little or no progress."
Harsh reality ? No, exciting. You are on the threshold of momentous life-change. Harsh reality is what you were before i.e. fearful, desperate and emasculated. You really don't want to go back to all that do you?
Little or no progress? No, you have made tremendous progress. You know it. Your wife cannot handle the fact you are changing, because it puts the onus on her to deal with her own issues (which until now you had been excusing her for). So she is squirming big time and trying to threaten you. Your wife clearly has no interest in any kind of a proper marriage with you, hence she is not worthy of you. She is showing her true colours. Its not pretty, but its better than living in delusion. You can either tolerate this bull for another 2 years (giving your children an appalling example for their future relationships), or you can be strong and start talking to an experienced and tough divorce attorney.
If its any consolation, the marriages of all recovered nice guys either develop into healthy and fulfilling ones, or they end because their wives don't have the courage to work on themselves. It looks like yours is the former - but that's a reflection on her not you.
You have to keep going.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
I'm not nearly as pessimistic about her reactions as S&A seems to be: she's been at the helm of the relationship for a long time, so it's not surprising that her initial response to your taking some of that control back would be anger and rebellion. I would take her reactions right now as temporary and somewhat knee-jerk: I'm not excusing them or saying that you should just roll over and take being cussed out by her, just that this initial 'storm' on her part may blow itself out once she realized that you *really mean it* and that these changes are permanent.
Can you tell us what changes you have made so far? What is it that has her so up in arms? Either way:
KEEP IT UP MP -- YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!
I'll offer you the same advice that I gave to StillHope:
(1) Continue your reading, and continue to look for and meet her needs in the relationship: show your love for her in the language that SHE best understands it -- i.e. don't withdraw and isolate yourself (retreat into the 'man cave').
(2) Continue to listen to and try to understand her complaints and criticisms. Acknowledge them and even repeat them back to her -- without being defensive or argumentative. Just accept her point of view (POV) as such, and make sure she understands that you accept it.
BUT, but, but:
(3) Stand up for yourself (WITHOUT being angry, critical, or defensive) and tell her your point of view: quietly, calmly, confidently. If she starts to raise her voice or become too demeaning, tell her to stop or you will leave the room, and if she continues anyway, disengage from the conversation. DO NOT let her abuse you verbally or draw you into a shouting match or battle-of-criticisms. Simply, listen to her POV, let her know that you've heard and understood her, state your POV (calmly), and let it go. Address her concerns and accept her influence/suggestions when you can, but firmly stand your ground when you can't. Admit and take responsibility for your mistakes, when you make them, but then learn from them and move forward. Be the bigger person and stay 'above the fray' as much as possible, keep your cool and your confidence, and stand strong.
(4) Continue living your own life, for YOURSELF. Every one of us here on these boards has a tendency to make our ->spouse<- the center of our universe and focus so much on them that we lose ourselves, but this is very unhealthy and unattractive to our spouse. Set up a GAL process and stick with it -- start doing things for YOU, for your own benefit and pleasure. The more you do, the better and more confident you will feel, and the more appealing you will be to your wife.
A two-year window isn't really a bad one to deal with -- it gives you both plenty of time to make and adjust to this new life-style you are trying to adopt: one in which you have reclaimed your life for your own benefit and happiness, and one in which you are inviting her to join with you in. It will be HER CHOICE as to whether or not she accepts the new, stronger you, or not. Keep making positive changes in yourself, and put that ball back in her court.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I agree with Bagheera on this one. Your wife sounds like the girl in the Exorcist as the priest was getting closer to success. The only thing missing is her head turning all the way around...
From what I have read of your situation, I don't know that there is any hope for your marriage or not, but I think you need to proceed with becoming Mr. NotPathetic for another reason. Assuming your marriage ends, do you want to look back and be ashamed of not being the man you could have been? Also, if it does end, if you don't fix these self-esteem habits now, you are going to likely end up connecting with another woman who will treat you crappy and let you be Mr. Pathetic in your next relationship.
Either you save your marriage by changing your ways, or you re-enter the single world a better man. Either option is better than continuing as Mr. Pathetic.
CB
Me; 42, W; 43 M; 16 yrs S12, D9
3/13 - "I want to move to XYZ City (four hours away) and it might be without you, not sure" 5/13 - "Not sure I meant that"
DOOOOOOOD!!!! I don't post too often but your sitch has drawn me out of the wood work. If YOU don't leave in 2 years SHE will kick YOU out!!?? Hold on. You work a terrible job to keep her in her extravagant lifestyle!? How about telling her, if she doesn't lose the attitude SHE can LEAVE? If you are the provider, you are the MAN. It is YOUR house. How can she kick you out of the extravagant life....THAT YOU PROVIDE? Has it occurred to you that perhaps your wife is nothing more than a bully and if you stood up to her she might crumble like a house of cards?
What do you provide exactly? How about taking the next bunch of cash earmarked for her extravagance and buying a Harley for you...and parking it in the garage where her car usually goes.
How about quitting that crappy job and doing what makes you feel good.
I might sound a bit militant but you are married to a school yard bully. I suspect if you manned up, and really believed it, she would change and quick. You have nothing to lose. You are miserable now and have no self-respect. Grow a pair, and stand your ground and see what happens. At best, she straightens out and you have your self-respect. At worst, she leaves and you have your self-respect. The current course will result in her leaving in 2 years and you have NO self-respect.
I am so pro-marriage but your case is crazy, though, I think possibly solveable. Have you read divorcebusting? There is a story of guy who took it for so long and then finally blew his stack. His wife fell in love with him....
Good luck, please, please keep us posted on your situation.
PS, I am wondering, you were good enough to marry and have two kids with. You WERE good enough at some point, what changed?
Last edited by DownNotOut...yet; 11/11/0808:30 PM.
Me 44 She 46 S13 D9 M18 T23 3 years DB'ing Successfully busted
DOOOOOOOD!!!! I don't post too often but your sitch has drawn me out of the wood work. If YOU don't leave in 2 years SHE will kick YOU out!!?? Hold on. You work a terrible job to keep her in her extravagant lifestyle!? How about telling her, if she doesn't lose the attitude SHE can LEAVE? If you are the provider, you are the MAN. It is YOUR house. How can she kick you out of the extravagant life....THAT YOU PROVIDE? Has it occurred to you that perhaps your wife is nothing more than a bully and if you stood up to her she might crumble like a house of cards?
What do you provide exactly? How about taking the next bunch of cash earmarked for her extravagance and buying a Harley for you...and parking it in the garage where her car usually goes.
How about quitting that crappy job and doing what makes you feel good.
I might sound a bit militant but you are married to a school yard bully. I suspect if you manned up, and really believed it, she would change and quick. You have nothing to lose. You are miserable now and have no self-respect. Grow a pair, and stand your ground and see what happens. At best, she straightens out and you have your self-respect. At worst, she leaves and you have your self-respect. The current course will result in her leaving in 2 years and you have NO self-respect.
I am so pro-marriage but your case is crazy, though, I think possibly solveable. Have you read divorcebusting? There is a story of guy who took it for so long and then finally blew his stack. His wife fell in love with him....
Good luck, please, please keep us posted on your situation.
PS, I am wondering, you were good enough to marry and have two kids with. You WERE good enough at some point, what changed?
What changed? The key event was this. My wife, circa 1996, began having extramarital affairs, with another woman. I found indisputable evidence of this, circa the spring of 1997. I never confronted my wife about this, or even mentioned it. I made the calculation, that I did not want to destroy my marriage. So I took the physical evidence, and threw it away.
In retrospect, it was a bad decision. I have forgiven my wife for what happened. But ever since then, her behavior has become increasingly more brazen. She routinely spends nights away from home, with her female paramours. And she takes trips with them, to which I am not invited, of course. She didn't even bother to tell me about the last one; I only found out about it, when I saw the bill for the plane tickets.
When this all began, I didn't want to destroy my marriage, because I still had small children. I didn't want to see them grow up in a single-parent household. And maybe from that perspective, it was the right choice. I have 2 children that are both intelligent and self-sufficient, and both are entering adulthood soon.
However, my relationship with my wife is a train wreck. There is no trust or intimacy, and my wife is resisting efforts to make changes. She already is calculating that she is better off single, so she can spend more time with her lesbian friends.
That is what happened. Sure, other things transpired, but this is at the core of our problems.
You my friend, I think, have been "living in limbo". You should google that phrase. More than ever, I think you need to make a stand. 14 years of the same cheesless tunnels has led you nowhere. You need to try something different and perhaps drastic. It may work, it may not but in 2 years you are out of luck if you do nothing.
I think you should get your affairs in order. No matter what happens, you should get yourself in a position to defend yourself legally and financially so in 2 years, or sooner, she doesn't surprise you with divorce papers and a well thought out case to take WAY more than the 50% she might deserve.
Stand up for yourself. It may save you. Both of you, or at least yourself. Either way, it won't be pretty but your current sitch sounds pretty "unpretty".
You need to set some limits and boundries and take back some of your dignity. You need to start putting your money in your own account ASAP to prevent against things like her using your money to buy tickets to visit lovers. Be careful, she could wind up using YOUR money to hire a laywer to take the rest of YOUR money.
I know this sounds harsh but I am really, really, feeling for you.
Me 44 She 46 S13 D9 M18 T23 3 years DB'ing Successfully busted
You really and truly have to keep standing up for yourself and protecting yourself. Even if you opt to keep the marrage together "for the sake of the kids" for another two years:
(1) Start protecting yourself financially, as DNO suggests.
(2) Don't take ANY abuse, verbal or otherwise. If she gets verbally abusive, give her a warning, and then walk out. Don't engage in it yourself, simply dis-engage from her.
(3) Keep your own behavior stellar, towards her and the kids, as well as maritally. If you stray now, it WILL be used against you, no matter *what* she's doing.
(4) Collect the evidence of her own overnight trips and infidelity, and don't throu it away this time.
And above all, start living your life for YOURSELF. Get yourself into, or continue to stay in shape. Pick up some new or old hobbies and keep yourself occupied in your off-time. Set new goals and apply yourself to your work. Nurture your relationships with *other men* and develop some new ones if you're missing in that department. Stop focusing on her, and focus on YOU for a change.
And no, you aren't a laughing stock of a man for having your wife give you up for other women. If that was her nature from the beginning, then she hasn't been honest with you. If it's something that developed over time, she's still been the unfaithful one, and she has handled it VERY, VERY poorly. Hold your head up, get up, and dust yourself off....life goes on, so start making a better one for yourself and your kids.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
What changed? The key event was this. My wife, circa 1996, began having extramarital affairs, with another woman. I found indisputable evidence of this, circa the spring of 1997. I never confronted my wife about this, or even mentioned it. I made the calculation, that I did not want to destroy my marriage. So I took the physical evidence, and threw it away.
In retrospect, it was a bad decision. I have forgiven my wife for what happened. But ever since then, her behavior has become increasingly more brazen. She routinely spends nights away from home, with her female paramours. And she takes trips with them, to which I am not invited, of course. She didn't even bother to tell me about the last one; I only found out about it, when I saw the bill for the plane tickets.
-- OK, I am dropping by again even as I thought you were well out of the woods. Are you even stil reading this thread???
Let's get real for a minute. I see you are stil with the moniker "mrpathetic" and that makes me displeased to say the least.
I have forgiven my wife for what happened.
When this all began, I didn't want to destroy my marriage, because I still had small children. I didn't want to see them grow up in a single-parent household.
-- This refers to her so-called possible lesbian affair you built up in your head, right? Again, excuse me but I am going to say in a quite stentorian voce: "BS!
You did not forgive her. Your lingering resentment is quite clear. STOP being so damne dself righteous. Did you confront her with your discovery? Did you verbalize this so-called "indisputable" evidence?
No. I thought not. You "threwe away" the "evidence." Hence resentment. Hence her feeling an ill wind from you probably.
Mrp,she may have actually felt respect for you had you taken her to task with your so-called indisputable affair evidence.
Why not: "Hey, what's this plane ticket expense? Hmmm? If I'm going to jet off somewhere on our shared dime you cqan be damned sure I have enough respect for you to discuss the matter first."
I was glad to see you seeing a Christian counselor and assumed you were on that path but your words say otherwise.
Listen to me. This is going to sting. You are ... STILL a DOORMAT. WAke the F up!
Two years? Sez who??? Her??? Of course, cuz she can push you around like a littel boy. Stop that! Be the man!
She wants two years? Hm, well baby how about two weeks? "I'm sure I can have plenty of willing females helping me get over you in that time frame."
Do you understand me? Women normally like men who are in control of their own sexual/overall attractiveness. Not some sap who is willing to sit there and take an unfair and irrational beating and some ridiculous two year time frame that she yokes onto you like a good little plow horse.
Look dude. I am not saying you must threaten the woman you love so much. I am saying you need to be the man. She is rebelling and throwing a tantrum b/c you have distanced yourself from any type of leadrship role with your woe-is-me and my issues attitude for so many years. She had led your household longer than her subconciousness felt to be rightt or fair and she has awakened.
And guess what??? Her subconscious is right. It feels cheated she linked herself up with a man who is not leading the way as master of his own kingdowm and domain. Can't blame her. What woman wants a milquetoast for her man?
She has zero respect for you mrp. You need to understand this right now.
And maybe from that perspective, it was the right choice. I have 2 children that are both intelligent and self-sufficient, and both are entering adulthood soon.
However, my relationship with my wife is a train wreck. There is no trust or intimacy, and my wife is resisting efforts to make changes. She already is calculating that she is better off single, so she can spend more time with her lesbian friends.
That is what happened. Sure, other things transpired, but this is at the core of our problems.
-- Look mrp, this pains me to the Nth degree. I hear you. You are so worried about the nuclear family structure remaining intact that you are willing to put up with ANYTHING. Do you see? She may not even be interested in other women but because you have such an insecurity over it she chalks you up as a garden variety insecure man who won't take charge no matter what ridiculous scenario she throws at you.
What you think she thinks is fantasy. You say she is "calculating she is better off single?"
Really? Do you have a pocket "my wife is gay" MRI? Unless she has said this in no uncertain terms I wouldn't recommend you attempt to mind-read my good man.
What is at the "core" of your problems is your apparent inability to stand up for yourself in your own R.
MRP, who the hell were you before she came into your life? Did you not look after yourself and direct your goings-on? Self-directed/driven?
Why the hell are you ceding control of your owhn wants, needs, desires to a woman who doesn't want to be in charge, dammmit?
Sack up. Tell her to stop with the ultimatums because she is hnot the boss of you and your family. Period. Life is preciouss and fleeting. If she can't work with you then she is wasting your time and your children's time.
Stop letting her dictate any terms. You are an equal partner at the very least. Give her a piece of your mind for a change instead of lolligagging around in this passive-aggressive resentment muck in which you find yourself mired.
DRIVE your life pal. Bring her along for the ride. Stop being such a whipping boyy at the expense of keeping your family and M intact at all costs. Criminey!
At the very least you owe it to your children. There's no excuse for one parent to steamroll the other parent when it boils down to generating a child's respect for his/her mom and dad.
Get mad mrpathetic. You have the balls in your family so use them. Lead your family my good man.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
