Where are we?

[jay]

I guess the best place to start is when I was hit by the bomb. Boy did that day hit me hard. I had earlier clues but I had to face reality on that day. My W told me she was not in love with me. She told me about meeting a guy on line who was more depressed than her. With his help she was able to overcome her depression. I think this was an OEA and I my gut told me a trip to an out of town conference she was thinking about attending was really a chance to meet him. I have no proof and have not ever asked.

What were the earlier/other clues? I am not sure of the exact order they occurred but here are some.

I had always tried to tell her ILY whenever we departed . I remember one day when she was walking down the path to her car and when I said ILY she started tearing up and mumbled something and kept walking without looking back at me.

Several times in the past she told me she believed in marriage and she would let me know when I was in trouble. Well I guess that was her way of telling me I was in trouble.

In the mid 90's I started to become very active in a hobby. I knew I was going overboard and asked myself many times if it would be worth giving up if we could ML more often. I always decided my wife did not want to ML more often so why try. I did start to cut back more each year until by 2002 I was not doing much of it at all.

I was in the hospital for heart failure in 2003. At times when I was in the hospital I felt abandoned by her. I had time to say many prayers for her and for me to be a better husband and father. During my recovery at home she gave me a second chance and even initiated ML which I don't remember her doing much if ever before. I did not know how to respond and not sure it was a positive experience for her but I could tell she was trying.

After that we started ML less often. It seemed that she couldn't wait for it to be over. She would quickly get up and leave me in bed alone. Many weeks later after ML she would lay there and not get up. I began to think that maybe things were getting better. Then one time I felt a little more comfortable and did something I had wanted to do and she got very upset and got out of bed telling me that I just blew it and we would not ML again. I had a “little temper fit" aimed at me” which I am not proud of. Just like a “little kid stomping up and down”. Well she has kept her word. There has been no ML or sex since then.

I found myself getting upset at her and questioned the way she drove, the routes she took and a lot of other little things. I never verbalized what I was feeling but I would not be surprised if she felt it. At this point I realized I was too into my self and needed to change. I made an effort to be nice and think of others. By doing that I was able to change the way I was feeling and no longer was finding her “faults”. I don't think my W noticed.

One time my kids and I were being very quit at dinner. She got up and went up stairs crying. I followed her and asked what was wrong and she said “get out”. We never argued with each other. Later she told me that I was not talking to her much. I would just come home and grunt or speak in one word sentences.

After writing this so far I wonder why she put up with me. I was very good at the time dismissing a lot of this and though we were doing OK.

Its amazing what being told by your wife that she would not ML anymore can do for your motivation to seek self help. I started to search the net and bookstores for self help info and books. Thus started my reading to try to understand what happened and what I could do to fix it.

I started a self help program to improve my marriage as a “Lone Ranger”. I think it would have helped if I had done that 10 years earlier. I am not sure it existed then. When I started reading its book I could not put it down. I read it cover to cover spending much of the day in tears. I asked my W to read it. It took her much longer and all she could say was that it was a lot of repeated simple definitions. I had hoped it would be the answer to fix our marriage. She refused to do the program with me and also said I was not ready for MC. Later she said we were not ready for MC. I took the program to heart and jumped right in doing what I could to be the kind of H she deserved. The only problem was she did not want that from me anymore. She was content to be room mates. I did many things wrong at this time. The one thing I did right was to stop saying ILY. I still think the ILYs. I was able to absorb many of the good points of the program by listening to the CDs over and over again. Most of the points were burned into my mind. Maybe it was just an escape but I felt good while I listened to them.

We went on a trip with our kids and I tried to be affectionate while we were at a play. She could not take that. Later that night I felt like walking to the bus station to take a bus home. Instead I spent the night on the bathroom floor in tears. The next morning while the two of us were alone in the room she told me that she thought that she could ever be intimate the way I wanted again. She was in tears.

Since then I have read many books looking for one that could explain what was going on with my W, me and our R. Last July I came across the SSM book by Michele. If I could not have sex I could at least read about it. I thought the book might explain what we were going through 10 years ago. I was impressed with it but knew it could not help us right now. That book led me to this web site and the DB book. I have been trying to practice DBing the last few months.

A lot has happened in the last year and a half. I still don't know what point our R is at or how I should treat her at this point. Not long ago she told me I was trying too hard. Last week W give me a hug and said she does like me. Several days later I asked if we were doing better. Her reply was we were doing OK. She had her arms around my shoulders at the time.

I hope to give more details and to reply to several of the threads I have been reading. My W has said the same phrases others have heard from their WAW and/or S in MLC.

I am very impressed with the folks on the BB and I wish I could have found it last year.

Me 56
W 48
S and D in college
Married 23 yrs
W emotionally detached 1996?
OEA late 2006
INILWY early 2007

[Brandon Kirk]

Brandon -- This was an inappropriate post. I have deleted it. Your words were crude, rude and not helpful to anyone. Consider this an official warning to clean up your act and to be respectful to other members of this on-line community. You must follow our board rules if you wish to continue the privilege of posting here.

[craig54]

Jay, sorry to hijack your situation. Brandon, we had this same communication a few weeks ago.Why must you continue to write such garbage? It certainly is not funny. please refrain from commenting in such a juvinile way to an adult situation.I am sure Jay does not appreciate your sense of humor.

[Michele Weiner-Davis]

Brandon --

This was an inappropriate post. I have deleted it. Your words were crude, rude and not helpful to anyone. Consider this an official warning to clean up your act and to be respectful to other members of this on-line community. You must follow our board rules if you wish to continue the privilege of posting here.

[nw626]

Hi Jay
Sorry to see you here, but you will find lots of good advices and supports from folks here.
Your DBing is working for you in a positive direction.
You don't have to ask her "how are we doing?". She will show you with her action, like that hug. Don't even say anything about your R or your changes unless your W brings it up first.
Please be patient and keep working on yourself.
I think try treating your W as a good friend should be a good starting point.
Keep on DBing...you can do this.

NW626

[craig54]

Jay, treating your wife like a friend is a huge start, anything to ease the tension. no r talks, no pursuing. back off, and show her the changes in you. Don't tell her, show her. Don't ask her how your situation is doing. Any talks need to come from your wife. Let her lead.Time is your friend.Pray for guidance.

[ramcharger]

Jay I am new at this but I believe that what the others are saying is true just keep working on changing you for the better and W will see the changes and react. Let W come to you to talk and be patient. That is the hardest thing in the world to be but we are here for you.

[jay]

That is the hardest thing in the world to be but we are here for you.

I have found that out!

I have backed off a lot. My W has been working on a project near my kids schools. In the past when I picked her up at the airport I would show up with single flower to give to her.

I use to bring her her favorite flowers at least once a month. It felt good to do those things and I look forward to the day I can do that as her H. I knew it wasn't working when I came home to find several new vases full of artificial flowers. It has been months since I gave her flowers.

She will be coming back from a trip soon and I just plan to welcome her home as good friend would. This is the first trip that I have not called her most days. I am looking forward to a chat with her tomorrow.

[jay]

Thanks nw and c54 for stopping by.

I knew I should not have asked “how are we doing?” right after I said it. When things start going well I slip up. I am doing much better at not pursuing now days.

[sandi2]

Hi Jay, found your thread and thought I would rspond to a couple of things said and wanted to ask you to clearify something also. But first, this one thing your wife said about finding a man on line that was more depressed that she was and how he had helped her more than anyone else? How crazy is that? One depressed person helping another.....I don't get it. Do you think that was just an excuse she was giving you for her talking to this man on line in order to continue her EA with him?

I think this was an OEA and I my gut told me a trip to an out of town conference she was thinking about attending was really a chance to meet him. I have no proof and have not ever asked.

Has she ever gone out of town to a conference before? Does she have the type of job that sends people to conferences out of town? I can tell you what to look for if she is having an online EA. If you walk into the computer room and she suddenly clicks off the page she was on and finds another one or if she acts jumpy or looks guilty. If she gets defensive if you ask her any quesions about the computer or who she has been talking to or how long or any quesions at all, she will be defensive about it out of guilt feelings. Also, it is addictive and she will spend more and more time on the computer instead of spending with her friends, family, or doing the things she used to do....instead the computer becomes her life. She will get more secretive and if you have a computer in a seperate room or if she has a lap top.....then she is probably doing things you would be very unhappy to know about. Just b/c she doesn't seem to be interested in having sex with you does not mean she doesn't care about getting the attention and amiration of other men. I had an entire list on "my friends" list who were all men. I talked to them and my H would come into the room and never know the difference. But as time went on and I became more daring in the things that I did, then I became more secretive about it. The first thing my H noticed was that when I was going to get online, I would always make sure my hair and make-up looked good b/c I was using the webcam and wanted to look good for my "fan club". He went a long time before he finally confronted me about the issue. He should have said something a lot sooner than what he did.

Since you wife has said that she does not want to ML......then do nothing to make her feel that you are pursuing her. For an example, just telling her that you love her is putting pressure on her b/c she knows that you want to hear her say it back to you and she doesn't want to say it.....so just don't go that route for now.

The fact that she says she wants to be roommates is actually a good thing even though I'm sure you don't see anything good about it. That is a lot better than her saying she wants a S or a D. Living under the same roof and being room mates is difficult but if you can keep a postivie POV then you can see this as your chance to really show her how much you have improved yourself and actually cause her to fall in love with you again. But first, you need to think back about what you were like when she fell in love with you the first time. We all change over the years and tend to get lazy in certain areas of our person grooming habits or we get slack in our personality traits.....things like that that can begin to rub against the grain over the years until finally, it has really rubbed down into the raw nerves and suddenly the one S does not find the other S looking very attractive. When emotional needs are not met......that is one of the first things that, I believe, causes a S to turn to another person.

If you do feel that your wife is or has taken the EA to the next level, then how do you feel about that? Are you still willing to work harder than you ever have before? Will you take a good long hard look in the mirror and see what changes you need to make about yourself? And, will you do this with the determination that it will be for you (not her) and that it will be to make you the best man you can be and that it will be for the rest of your life and not to just reel her back into your arms?

You may have seen this list I have passed around to several people, but if you will follow it, I believe it is a wonderful short version of the DB guide (or a "quick list") to look over every day. I am going to post it to you and hope that you will look it over and make goals for yourself and make them "detailed" and how you are going to get them accomplished. Make notes about what you need to improve in your personal appearance, clothes, habits, personality, etc. Talk to us about it and let's share this thing to gether and work together to try to bust this divorce before it even gets that far.

I hope and pray that she did not go away with him to have a PA, but if she did, realize that it isn't always a "good" thing for them. They are often disappointed in the results b/c most of the attraction for the other person (especially online) is all in the imagination anyway. When they finally meet face to face, it is often not the desired effects they had hoped for. Anyway, here is that list of things you can be working on while the two of you are room mates.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc.
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make
matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it too......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life!
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the
conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or
short on words, but don't sound rude. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home!
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!)
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse
happiness and contentment. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time.
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse.
35. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

Good luck on these goals. Take care.

Sandi