Where is God when it hurts?

[Chazz]

Another quick thought just occurred to me after I logged out...

Know when Moses was up on the mountain in his history-making moment with God receiving the ten commandments?

What were his people doing? Making a golden calf idol or something like that wasnt it?

Does this not suggest that a feeling of distance from God is a long-standing tendancy? Here they were being led by a pillar of fire and receiving manna from heaven for their very survival, and their leader is having a one-to-one interaction with God... and they feel so little presence that they make a gold cow and worship it.

There is a lot being said by this event, no?

Ciao.

Chaz

[chicki]

I still say the more you seek Him the more you feel Him and are in His presence.

As long as the enemy is living, there will always be temptation & its up to us who know Christ to do whats right.

The enemy even tried to tempt Him.
The enemy never sleeps and never ceases his tactics until the end of time.

[chicki]

Do you know what this means?-
"To enter into His presence with praise"?

1. When starting out your daily prayers, praise Him, thank Him, tell Him how wonderful He is, fill w/ compliments and thankfullness.

2. "when two or more are gathered" this is why he loves for us to fellowship w/ other beleivers.

3. Why do some churches get into the praise and worship part and let that part of service LEAD, b/c in singing and adoring He will be there & the entire place is filled w/ His Spirit.

I dont fast as much I should, but its another form of keeping in his presence adn staying w/ Him on yr mind.
I love to put christian music on @ the house, it really calms me & the entire atmosphere. One I love is Franklin, I got the Cd for X & one of the songs that talked about fathers leaving their children really touched him according to what the girls told me X cried.

[Chazz]

Chiki... I have had a variety of what I feel are authentic experiences with God. Unexplainable things. Moments where I felt that God was present. Nearby. I have felt led and directed at different times.

I feel I need to describe and express these experiences with my own language. I feel alergic to chruch vernacular and king james english. I have heard both so over-used and mis-used and abused to the point where I really struggle with it.

I get from the Bible that God is true, even if every man is a liar. So I think what I am saying is that I am looking for a fresh and genuine experience with God. One that is not filtered by the jargon and culture that feels empty and superficial to me.

Not wishing to blame or judge anyone. I just dont feel a connection with a lot of lingo or established culture. Nor do I feel God requires any specific lingo. Perhaps this is why new churches emerge from time to time.

So I would say, ya, I do know what entering his presence with praise means. I am just sucking at conformity at this stage of my life. So maybe I know it by a different description.

The Bible as I read it does not require conformity. Most gospel music as I have experienced is... well... lets just say it doesnt appeal to me either. I respect what they are trying to do yet what I have experienced seems all part of the big western culture church machine.

Yet Jesus himself I believe was a cultural revolutionary. Which I believe was one of the reasons he was resisted.

Anyway... I am all over the map here.

Ciao.

Chaz

[~Sol]

Chazz,

I felt the urge to seek God recently - especially after realizing that on my own I am not doing any good for myself, only cycling the wheels of the same old thing. That's why I am unable to distinguish a good R from a bad one, and I am very, very fortunate I did not get to sleep with this one gal that has gotten my head all tangled up. You could say that I am crying out to God, in hopes that he can hear me, and help to guide me again. I was once very spiritual, but young and naive. Now I am older, and I didn't think that I would need to reach out to God.

I am still unsure if I want to "join" any particular church, but I need to start somewhere. I have been invited many times, yet I resisted. I am now going on my own, it's my decision, with no pressure. It's actually kinda scary to go into a large church, with good people that are Christians, but strangers at the same time. I only know one person there, and he's an ex-coworker that helps with the kid's ministry, so he's not really around with the grown ups. Again I feel sorta lost, but I am trying to reach out in my own way. I once thought that one can be with God and never belong to a church or group. It's possible, but from what I see in the New Testament, fellowship is an important if not vital part of being a Christian. Not to mention all the support one can get from others. There's a power there when I see people giving of themselves, because they want to, and it comes from within. I'm tired of being alone. I know that I am not immortal, and one day I won't be here for my daughter, so I am seeking God again so I can find my purpose in this life, and I want to teach my daughter the truth about God so she can grow up and find her purpose.

I think God is working here.

[Chazz]

I have been invited many times, yet I resisted. I am now going on my own, it's my decision, with no pressure.

Sol...

In a world of unrelenting promotion flooded upon us.... including by churches, it sounds refreshing to me that you are seeking of your own volition. This to me sounds like a simple and pure motive.

I guess one of the things that I have been resisting in church is the continual pressure to evangelize. I am a little confused about this. The Bible seems plain that we are to spread the word. Yet, frankly, most people I have experienced doing so sound pushy or ignorant. Quite a statement I am sure.

I belong to a spiritual program that by its nature is based on "ATTRACTION rather than PROMOTION". In other words, we just do what we do and leave others to be attracted to what we experience if they wish. We do let people know we are there for them and that we have found a spiritual way of living that is working fabulously for us. But under no circumstances do we push our beliefs on anyone. If they are truly worthwile, why sould we have to?

How much time and energy do churches and Christians spend trying to promote God? Is God not impressive enough on his own? Would the world not be attracted to a truthful, happy, and effective way of living without us having to push it on anyone?

I believe this describes Jesus. In fact, Jesus at different times told people to say nothing of the miracles that occured. I presume he may very well have known that word would get out anyway. But was Jesus' influence not based more on attraction than promotion?

How many zillions of dollars to Mega-churches spend on TV programming, books, CDs, and "resources" as they call them? To what avail? Wouldnt just a simple successful selfless life not be that much more of a message than all the clever manipulations we can come up with? It would be to me.

Anyway.... am glad you are feeling some direction and discovery. I would agree that I think God is working with you as well.

Let us know how the journey unfolds.

Ciao.

Chaz

[Reincarnated]

Chazz--
I remember having a similar discussion with you about organized religion a few (more than a few?) months ago....I can see that you are still seeking.

I think that church is a vehicle toward God; it puts people in the proper frame of mind. But it is still an individual relationship that each person has to develop.
I think that church is a social structure, for and by people of like-mindedness. It helps get you were you are going, but its not the destination itself. Does that make sense?

With your search, I am surprised that your recovery program doesn't fulfill your needs, since it doesn't sound like you particularly need the social outlet. Again, the relationship with God is personal...
I didn't go back to a church until my spirituality was reawakened through the program. My choice to go back and learn more.

I still feel a distance to God. But I also recognize that there were too many things that happened in my recent journey to chalk it all up to happenstance. Too many good things. I don't know if it is a benign benevolence, or some kind of global interpersonal connection that we don't fully understand, but there was a plan, something that reached out to me when I was at my lowest, willing to leave this earth.
What am I saying here in the ramble.....well, in Church, I don't find God. But I find a lot of other people who try to reach Him, who are walking similar journeys, and it makes for better company along the way. I happen to agree with you, as far as the notion of attraction over promotion.

I usually pray only for His will. This last weekend, I prayed for a soft place to land, someone to come into my life and be that. We'll see what comes of that.

My own ramblings of the night....

[Chazz]

Hey Donna...

Chazz--
I remember having a similar discussion with you about organized religion a few (more than a few?) months ago....I can see that you are still seeking.

Yes Donna.... I am still seeking. It is a quest that I have been dialoguing about on the threads for some time now. I feel strongly that it is a journey of genuine discovery and something that I am meant to go through.

I think I am also expressing my issues with the Church Corporate Machine and culture. In doing so, I hope I am working through these issues. No doubt I am expressing some disappointment and perhaps even resentment. Both need to be dealt with.

My program has brought me to "Come to believe" .... well actually "Rediscover" is probably the more descriptive term. Yet I want more. The longer I am in the program and working my program, the more vividly clear the truths of the Bible are to me. Scriptures spring alive with new meaning. It feels like revelations of truth all over the place. This feels like the beginning of my spiritual awakening.

I simply cannot believe what appears to me to be so amazingly and thoroughly true in the most practical ways. Yet my issues seem to continue to be....

1. A feeling of non-relevance with organzied churches as I have experienced them.

One big reason probably centres around my XW's involvement in a "Ministry" (frankly, I even find that word tired and empty). There are ridiculous double-standards. I guess I am hurt by it still.

Another reason is how unrealistic I feel the organized church is in dealing with contemporary issues. I beat this issue to death with my previous thread. No need to get into it again.

I was in a recovery organization one time where a bunch of old ladies came to "Minister to you street people". This was about the most ignorant thing I had ever heard. They didnt even realize that most of us were working suburban people. Or some of us professionals with educations, careers and families. I had been driven to the church-based recovery centre by my millionaire friend in his Lincoln the day before.

So my question to this kind of an effort is... who is this ministry really for? You or the people you are "Ministering" to. Well first off ladies.... you dont even seem to know who we are. You just presume that we are "street people". I felt they were there to fulfill their own sense of worth rather than actually do something meaningful. They were there to take for themselves rather than do something for someone else. This pattern I have seen over and over with "ministries". They so often appear to exist for the sake and perpetuation of the ministry itself, not for the people they presume to serve.


2. FRankly.... I cant even think of my second point.

Oh well.

With your search, I am surprised that your recovery program doesn't fulfill your needs, since it doesn't sound like you particularly need the social outlet. Again, the relationship with God is personal...

You are correct, I dont feel I need the social outlet. I have a ton of social contact. Great friends, a very busy workplace life, lots of interactions in The Program.

Yes, I miss a personal connection with God. I carry guilt. I find myself using his name in vain and am having a hard time forgiving myself. This is a big one.

I commited other sin as the Bible describes it too. I dont yet feel forgiven. I feel like a bit of a black sheep. Yet I know that God is forgiving. It is a strange paradox that I feel I am on a journey to discover a greater truth.

I appreciate your dialogue. It is not peppered with "Christianese" which is something I also struggle with hearing. "Christianese" wreaks of conformity to me. It feels like empty verbage. So thanks for speaking plainly.

Maybe what I need is more fellowship with a few more wayward believers who have been to the same edges I have been to. I am sure God will put in my path what I need.

For now, suffice it to say that I dont disbelieve. I probably am just looking for a comfortable and satisfying way to believe.

Make any sense?

Thanks for your meaningful reply.

Ciao.

Chaz

[~Sol]

Hey Chazz...

I also don't like "Christianese" or what I like to call "flowery Christians" who act a little loony like everything is just dandy - the tv evangelicals turn me off, and that to me is not real. There are some people out there that take advantage of the masses, and are purely profit driven. Maybe that's why I have been also reluctant to jump right in with just any church, so I am doing my homework this time.

The best thing that I do is to visit the churches that appeal to me, not once but several times, and soon I find out what they are about. I like this one church I found, they are non-denominational (don't like denominations at all), so this is my first requirement. But even then, I have to scrutinize what kind of leadership they have and also look at the kinds of members that attend regularly. I've been burned out from church before (it was a non-denom) but it was just this one particular church. Still, it made me look at Christianity in a different way, so I am cautious.

[RMG77739]

I usually pray only for His will. This last weekend, I prayed for a soft place to land, someone to come into my life and be that. We'll see what comes of that.

Donna,

I am one who firmly believes God rewards those who do what is right in His sight. Based on what I have read about your sitch, your heart was in the right place.

God will bless you with so many things in His time. I believe one of them will be the right man for you... NOT to complete you... You need to be "complete" with God... Rather, to enhance you and your children's lives...

Take Care,

RMG