That's an interesting line of thought you bring up there, RMG. You make the argument that the actions of the WAS are due to the makeup of that person -- this is "who they really are". You also said they had the "potential, desire and ability to ruin their M all along." Am I to take your meaning to be that these WAS were always of this mind, that it was merely a matter of time before they acted on these impulses?
I'm also intrigued at the same time by your objection to the "alien" analogy bandied about here. I consider the "alien mantra" just a very handy means for lending perspective to this all-too-common situation with the WAS. "Alien mind-bending", "Demonic possession", "Midlife Crisis", etc. -- All are attempts, some accurate, some not, to characterize what the LBS and outside parties can only describe as a sudden break from what was perceived to be the morals and value system at one time professed by the WAS.
Perhaps "Alien" is a bit too easy of a label to describe the phenomena. I sense you have a particular objection to the term because you think it demeans or dehumanizes the WAS in the mind of the LBS? I can assure you that is not how I perceive it at all, and I agree that to take it too literally would be an act of "unhealthy denial." Still how else would one express the common observation that the WAS has suddenly abandoned their own principles? Don't forget, not many of the WAS' you hear about here in this particular forum exhibited a complete lack of fidelity all throughout their M. You will indeed find stories about never-faithful spouses in other venues, but what is keenly vexing about these WAS' is that they are often faithful, moral-bound people in long-term relationships with their spouses for many years when all of a sudden they seem to have a switch thrown in their psyches that causes them to abandon their spouse, the children, their families and their ideals to pursue another person.
I will concede that in a lot of cases the transition is gradual, taking place over years even, and love can indeed be blind, but in most of the cases here, such as my own, the change came swiftly, in a matter of weeks, if not days. Sudden is not too strong a word.
But you also used the term "free will" here, alluding to the choices made by the WAS... Now the question is: Did the choices these WAS take make them into the person they are? Or did the person they are determine the choices they made? You see, you're touching on a "nature versus nurture" debate here to describe sociopathic human behaviors (on a clinical level) or a fall from grace (on a more spiritual level).
Please elaborate further, if you will, but if I read you right, would you say that these WAS' are like the scorpion and the LBS' are like the frog in the parable of "The Scorpion and the Frog"? Or do they truly have "free will"?
Am I to take your meaning to be that these WAS were always of this mind, that it was merely a matter of time before they acted on these impulses?
Yes.... It could be emotional or physical issues.. Or meeting the "wrong person".... Someone who encourages them to leave the M instead of working on it.... This could be same sex friend or OP......
Not to toot my own horn.... But, a Catherine Bell clone could have shown up on my front porch... Wearing only a trench coat and flashed me her "goods"......... And told me she wanted to waste no time... She wanted to go at it in my foyer.... I would have told her I am flattered... But, I am a married man AND I love my W VERY MUCH! No second thoughts........ My M is too important......
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
Perhaps "Alien" is a bit too easy of a label to describe the phenomena. I sense you have a particular objection to the term because you think it demeans or dehumanizes the WAS in the mind of the LBS?
No, the "alien" analogy places the blame for the WAS on a "third" party... That is the denial aspect.... Instead of assigning responsibility where it squarely belongs... On the spouse who leaves.....
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
You will indeed find stories about never-faithful spouses in other venues, but what is keenly vexing about these WAS' is that they are often faithful, moral-bound people in long-term relationships with their spouses for many years when all of a sudden they seem to have a switch thrown in their psyches that causes them to abandon their spouse, the children, their families and their ideals to pursue another person.
Hmmm.... I do not get this..... Faithful is faithful for life... Not faithful for five, ten or twenty years....... Again, this sounds like an excuse...... So, one gets "brownie points" for being faithful for 12 years.... AND running off with his smoking hot 23 year old secretary? In my opinion, flawed thinking.... Faithful for 12 minutes or 12 years AND unfaithful..... Still unfaithful..... It is like being "a little pregnant"... This is VERY black and white.....
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
But you also used the term "free will" here, alluding to the choices made by the WAS... Now the question is: Did the choices these WAS take make them into the person they are? Or did the person they are determine the choices they made?
They simply are who they are.... Their character, morals and values determined their actions......
Make no mistake, the WAS has "free will"..... He or she could have had the stones to decide to work on the M...... They just decided to put aside any integrity they formerly may have had and took the coward's way out.....
RMG
Last edited by RMG77739; 10/30/0802:53 AM.
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
Well, I am glad that the selling of the house will bring you some relief as well. You need it. You really put yourself last in the deal, so your wife and children could stay comfortable. I commend you for that. You committed to making it inconvenient for you for the sake of the ones you loved, and didn't even know how long it would be, or how much it would cost. You are a man with wonderful morals and a heart of gold.
You will indeed find stories about never-faithful spouses in other venues, but what is keenly vexing about these WAS' is that they are often faithful, moral-bound people in long-term relationships with their spouses for many years when all of a sudden they seem to have a switch thrown in their psyches that causes them to abandon their spouse, the children, their families and their ideals to pursue another person.
NCB,
I have to make one more comment. This all boils down to one thing:
Selfishness
They feel ENTITLED to do WHATEVER they choose.......
When my wacko exW was spewing her cr@p, she made MANY "Me" statements....
It is time for me to have fun....... It is time for me to be happy.......
Funny... I wanted to ask her when MY turn is coming for these... I guess they skipped my turn....
Take Care,
RMG
Last edited by RMG77739; 10/30/0803:23 PM.
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
Thanks for following up on this philosophical debate. By "debate", I don't necessarily mean between you and me so much as the debate I continue to wage within myself over these unanswered questions. Questions I'm sure we all struggle with as we try to come to grips with this turn of events.
I don't think we're far off in our positions. I do believe it is indeed by the choices of our spouses that they betray us. I think we can argue as to whether and to what degree each of these WAS either do so out of their nature or out of their free will. We can argue to which end of the spectrum -- the predisposition of their nature versus their free will -- drives their actions. And it may certainly vary with the individual.
What I think we can agree upon is that, however you slice it, the WAS is ultimately responsible for their own actions. "Every man's (or woman's) soul is his own", to paraphrase Shakespeare's Henry V.
Quote:
When my wacko exW was spewing her cr@p, she made MANY "Me" statements....
It is time for me to have fun....... It is time for me to be happy.......
My STBX said practically the same thing, and many more. In fact this and many other actions and utterances by any one WAS are very often echoed by countless other WAS's, though there is no direct relation between these individuals.
That brings up the other part of the WAS' behavior that is intriguing, that their words and deeds tend to be so similar while being independently derived that we, the LBS' comparing notes afterwards, will remark about the seeming "playbook" or "script" they appear to be following. You can see where the wonderment from this observation naturally leads to asking just who (or what) wrote this "script" and how is it being delivered to them. That's where the "alien mothership" or "Beelzebub's minions" tend to get offered.
Now, I know that there are very few original thoughts anymore, even in general, but it is continually amazing how uncannily similar some of the words and rationalizations these WAS come up with. And as a Christian, I don't really have to look too far to understand how there might really be a common source for these coincidences. I'll just say that Satan has obviously been playing this one card for so long that he doesn't bother to come up with any original material anymore.
Having said that, I still firmly believe that it is still the responsibility of each of us to resist temptations in life, and so it matters not that the Devil is leading these WAS' astray -- they have the free will and they have the responsibility to use it wisely, to ignore the lies of the Great Tempter and to hold to the commitments they made before God. There are no excuses. Even if (big if) it should happen to be more due to nature than nurture -- there are no excuses.
Now, I know that there are very few original thoughts anymore, even in general, but it is continually amazing how uncannily similar some of the words and rationalizations these WAS come up with. And as a Christian, I don't really have to look too far to understand how there might really be a common source for these coincidences. I'll just say that Satan has obviously been playing this one card for so long that he doesn't bother to come up with any original material anymore.
NCB,
I am a Christian as well.... The truly disturbing thing is the vast majority of WAS KNOW what they are doing is DEAD WRONG.... Yet, they do it anyway.... Again, I have to question their commitment to M and Christianity........
I simply came to the conclusion my exW did not value her alleged Christian beliefs, M, our families, her commitments, the time we spent together or me.... It is pretty simple....
RMG
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
Tal, I am glad you're doing better -- I hope you and your S's get completely free of this sickness. So many people I know, all over the country, are suffering the "lingering crud" of this cold season.
Lwb, I did what I did, but because W proceeded to negate any offering of love or good will I gave her and the boys, I can now say that I shouldn't have bothered. Aside from me and God, no one else seems to care. I don't expect a medal or anything -- I'm just recognizing this is the way it really has been for a long, long time now. Time for me to just walk it off.
Hey, chicki. I appreciate you dropping by.
RMG, I don't have much more to add, other than I am still pondering this matter very heavily. In fact, I have placed a copy of Steinbeck's "East of Eden" on reserve at the local library. It has been almost 30 years since I first read it, when I was a senior in high school. I was sooo green and naive back then -- I know I grasped a lot of the subtleties of the morality tale at that time, but I also know much of it was lost on me. It will have a whole new feel to me now.
I also want to retrieve my copies of C. S. Lewis' morality books from W. I'm sure she boxed them up tight and locked them away somewhere.
---
I can't say as I am sad to see Halloween (and October) gone. Took the boys trick-or-treating last night in the "old" neighborhood -- probably for the last time. W couldn't wait for me to meet her down at the house to exchange the kids, she came straight to my apartment instead. Though she veiled it well from the boys, I got the impression she was anxious to dump them as soon as she could.
The boys went as Transformers Autobot characters. S7 went as Optimus Prime, S3 as Bumblebee. They were so cute -- I need to ready pictures for the "alternate universe."
Once there I saw and spoke with all the neighbors. Briefly traded info about what's going on. I let them know we had someone going through the actions to buy the house. I didn't mention anything about how I regretted it or how all of this was turning out.
After we covered our street and a couple of the adjoining streets, W called to see if S7 was still interested in visiting her apartment to trick-or-treat. So I took the boys over to their mother's apartment-- it was "dead" for such Halloween activities (not unexpected) but W got to see the boys all dressed up. She seemed happy to do see them.
Oddly, S7 then said he wanted to stay the night with his mother right there on the spot. W told him he couldn't do that, that he had to go with his father. That made obvious to me that W was planning something else for the remainder of the night, so I encouraged both of my sons to head on back to my place, with promises of hot chocolate while we sorted through our haul.
So now here I am still pondering my life and how in the world I got into this situation. How do I keep from ever getting into such straits ever again.
Lwb, I did what I did, but because W proceeded to negate any offering of love or good will I gave her and the boys, I can now say that I shouldn't have bothered. Aside from me and God, no one else seems to care. I don't expect a medal or anything -- I'm just recognizing this is the way it really has been for a long, long time now. Time for me to just walk it off.
Well you deserve a medal that's for sure! I kind of think that a lot of the WAS just don't appreciate us for who we are and the kind of person we are. But I think there are people out there that would appreciate us a lot more than our WAS. Once we're open to the possibility maybe that will happen.
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Though she veiled it well from the boys, I got the impression she was anxious to dump them as soon as she could.
Probably.
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The boys went as Transformers Autobot characters. S7 went as Optimus Prime, S3 as Bumblebee. They were so cute -- I need to ready pictures for the "alternate universe."
I can't wait to see!
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So now here I am still pondering my life and how in the world I got into this situation. How do I keep from ever getting into such straits ever again.
Well I'm thinking my strategy will be waiting until after the marriage to date of course, then trying to really go slowly just dipping my toe into dating, don't want to do a rebound or anything. More focus on the kids than a dating life (they already have one parent that is more focused on dating I figure). Plus, if I see any teeny, tiny hint of selfishness or meanness in a person I date, I'm outta there! Karen
I wanted to ask her when MY turn is coming for these... 