AchingMan, I have very little tolerance for people who use the "it's just who I am" excuse to get out of solving their problems. I have always felt that way, have always been the kind of person who was willing to admit to a problem, especially when I saw that my actions might be hurting someone else. My father is an alcoholic, he hasn't drank in years but during the years he did drink life at our house was chaotic. My mother was one of those people who took no constructive steps to solve the problem. She was completely stagnant and unwilling to see what his problems were doing to her children. I can remember at 5 and 6 years old feeling a sense of frustration over the fact that this adult woman could not see how she contributed to the problem. Today she will tell you that she just isn't the kind of person to deal with those things. HUH? How can you not be the kind of person who deals with the problems in your life? How can you sit back, aware that who you are is hurtful to people who love you and not feel any motivation to change? It is people like that who destroy marriages and create vicious cycles of endless destruction. To me it is cowardice and self-centeredness and unacceptable.
No one can improve a relationship on their own. At some point the other person has to be willing to become a participant in solving the problems also. I think the only way that will happen is if the other person feels that what they are about to loose is worth fighting for even if it means admitting to some problems of their own. I've had to live with the fact that no matter how hard I tried or how willing I was to change some things about myself, in the long run my ex didn't feel I was worth it. I don't come to this forum often because of my history. I see so many people here struggle to change themselves, to make some kind of positive change in their marriage and all for nothing. Sexual dysfunction in a marriage is a killer and I see evidence that very few of these low drive spouses are willing to compromise. It just seems to me that, no matter what the gender, when you start trying to get someone to admit they aren't functioning properly in that manner that you are treading on dangerous territory and very few are willing to even go there.
My feelings about myself and my sexuality are self-imposed. It's a defense mechanism I have used to keep my heart safe. I fully realize this. It would be easy to blame my ex for the way I feel now but it isn't his fault. It's a choice I have made. I am an attractive woman. I'm not over weight, have a bright smile and a twinkle in my eye. I have all the things men are drawn to BUT I run for cover when it comes to actually letting someone in. Being a sexy, sensual woman means putting my heart in the game. I haven't learned yet how to do that without risking another heartache. I am in therapy, am trying to learn that loving and being loved doesn't mean giving away who I am or how I feel about myself to the other person. I will heal eventually and when I do, no one will ever take from me again the things I gave to my ex.
Being single I have learned something disturbing. There are some very shallow men in the world. There are men who equate a woman's value with the size of her hips or the lack of wringles on her face. It's like looking for a needle in a hay stack trying to find one with some integrity and self-esteem of his own.
Your response to my post was very sweet and sincere. I sit and scratch my head wondering why a wife would not want sex with a man who can be so open and sincere. Heck, I wanted sex with my ex and he is an emotional neanderthal. He runs from his own problems and especially the problems of other people. Life is a mystery to me.
Johhana, why did my ex leave? I believe he left because staying would have meant becoming a part of fixing the problems in the marriage. He was purfectly happy in the marriage as long as I was the one in therapy and on medications. In his mind, if I would only fix myself then all would be right. For 13 years I tried to communicate my pain to him. I read books on communication, beat myself up because I couldn't be happy with all the "perfect" things he did. Two days before he left he rejected me again. He stepped over my naked body and left me laying in front of a fire in the fireplace and went to bed. We had not had sex in nearly 3 months and that night I pulled out all the stops to try and create a playful atmosphere. He looked at me as if I were about to beat him. The next moring he tried to have sex with me. After sending me the message the night before that he would rather do anything than have sex with me, after showing me that his sleep meant more to him that having sex with me he tried to have sex with me. Normally I would have gone along with it. It was like the straw that broke the camel's back. I couldn't stand his touch that morning or the way I felt inside about myself any longer. Two days later he arrogantly ask me what I was so upset about "this time." When I told him it was the rejection he rolled his eyes at me and said, "not that again." He acted as if I were disgusting, as if I were a freak for being hurt. I started screaming. It was like I was screaming for me life. I told him he was killing, that he was destroying me. He picked up his car keys and left and never came back. That was nearly 5 years ago. Do I wish I had my husband back. Sure, a husband who loved me, desired me, knew that even though he didn't "understand what the big deal was about sex" that is was important to me.
I have learned that all that work I did, all the difference to his feelings and his needs were for nothing because when it came time for him to show some consideration for me he expressly showed me what I was worth to him. Nothing. That is what I fear when I read this forum. It's a fear based on my own experience and probably taints the way I look at things but I see so many people working so hard and I fear they will one day have to live with the same thing I have had to live with...that their spouse will not ever feel they are worth solving the problem.
The psychological aspect of it all is harder to deal with. Even if his problems were hormone induced he probably wourldn't be willing to use mediation to fix it. It's the psychological aspect that really causes a mental block. I see it as being a very positive thing that your ex will even go to therapy. Mine went once and walked out during the session. In no way could he ever admit to being a negative influence in the marriage in anyway. He was Mr. Perfect and if he couldn't play that role then he was gone. Your husband at least seems willing to admit to a problem. Now, the challenge is getting him to a place where he can untangle the mental mess that is causing the problem.
I'm glad your therapist has referred you to someone who specializes in sexual dysfunction. I do hate that word...dysfunction. Think about it DYSFUNCTION. If someone were telling you that you weren't functioning properly in that area you would probably feel highly offended. I like sexual "difference." Your husband is not dysfunctional, his appetite is just different from yours. When you are dealing with someone who is having a psychological block when it comes to problems I think you have to be very careful how you phrase things. Words can be a great motivator don't you think?
I question some of the DB tactics. I do like the idea of solving problems from a solution based aspect though. Most people might say that to solve a problem like your husband has one would have to delve into all the mental stuff that is keeping him from having a "normal" sex drive. I'm not sure that is so, I'm not sure that wouldn't only make the problems worse. The past is the past, no amount of rehashing why he feels the way he feels is actually going to change the way he feels.
I haven't read all your posts so this question may sound ignorant but I am wondering....he knows that you need more frequency. You, no doubt have expressed that to him. There has probably been hours and hours of communication about the subject. Has there been any action taken though. Have you gone to him and told him that you need sex X number of times a week and need him to be willing to give you that? Maybe it is something as simple as marking the calender, planning for sex on certain days and then just doing it.
Have you ever been thrown into doing a task that you weren't all the happy about having to do? Life puts us in situations at times where we are faced with having to do things we don't really think we want to do but once we get started and get into the habit of it we find that it really is quite enjoyable.
Somewhere down the line your husband was taught that sex was uncomfortable. He shies away from an extremely enjoyable activity because of some false belief that he adopted earlier in life. It sounds to me, from reading your posts that he has a fear the emotions that come along with physical intimacy. Sometimes we have to face our fears by jumping in with both feet and experiencing the thing we fear the most. If you could get him to the point of being willing to participate for your sake you might...in time be able to show him that it is a safe activity.
My big thing with my ex was that I wanted to be wanted. I stubbornly refused to ask for it because I wanted him to ask, to show desire for me. We can't show desire for something we don't desire and my ex had very little desire for sex. It really wasn't about me but about sex in general. I think my stubborness and unwillingness to ask for it only made the problems worse. If he were here today you can bet I would say to him, "Sunday, Wednesday and Saturday afternoon I want sex." I would ask for the opportunity to show my husband....3 times a week that sex was nothing to fear but something to enjoy. I would do everything differently than I did before.
I do know what you are experiencing and I do sympathize. I tried with my heart and my head to fix the problems but I can look back now and see where I made some huge mistakes. You need to stay willing to keep an open mind when it comes to different things you might could do to help him solve his problem. That being said continue to take care of yourself and please continue to have compassion for a man who is not able to experience the most enjoyable thing a couple can experience. Cathy~
I cried when I read about what happenned in your marriage, and fear that mine is also going in the same direction. I have told my H numerous times what I need and the frequency, but nothing. Generally twice a year for ten years and we are on nine months now. My marriage has always been important to me. I have tried to help him open up and address his intimacy problems for years, but was ignored until July when he was given an ultimatum. He is trying with tiny hugs, arm around my shoulder, but no sex or anything remotely sexual. I will not initiate because he draws back further. We will try the therapy option but if it does not work, I might be single and still looking for the passion and love that I need from another man. Why is it so hard for our spouses to understand that we should not have to beg for love and intimacy? We suffer though hell waiting for the lightbulb to go off in their head but no spark ever starts the flash of understanding.
You and Cathy rip my heart right out of my chest. I wish to God I had some words, some damn idea...but because I am not in your situation and never have been, I feel I must tread very carefully here.
I'm curious. Do you think your husband is a passive agressive? Do you think his absolute refusal to have sex with you may be a power play? The more I read your thread, the more and more I am thinking that perhaps this is a very strange form of abuse he is foisting onto you.
Have you ever tried seperation? I mean, could you emotionally and/or financially swing it?
I will say that I am all for keeping marriages together, but not to the expense of someone's soul. I almost walked out because my H had gotten so verbally and emotionally abusive I couldn't take it anymore. And for the longest time I just couldn't see my part in it. But I do have to say that he was the first one to back off just a bit, and long enough for me to remember that I really, really loved him. And then I found the book. Thank God.
I don't know how to fix your sitch. But I can tell you that the thing that finally jump-started my sitch is when both my H and I were honestly willing to chuck it all. Perhaps your H is in such deep denial of how serious your situation is, that he'd never realize it until you do something radical.
I have to say that reading Cahty's post to you makes an awful lot of sense to me, at least in your situation. I hate saying that, too.
Passive, yes. Agressive, no. He does not have the notion that his lack of interest in me is a power play for him. He just is not like that at all. And I truely do not see him using the lack of attention to me as a power play. Think Boy Scout about my H. I and many of our friends see him as a basically happy man that has an immature, childish attitude toward relationships. He is very afraid to open up for fear of rejection and being hurt. I still think that it stems from losing his dad in a car accident when my H was ten. He is the oldest of five children. Lots of pressure for a young boy to be told after his dad died that he was now the "man of the family." That is part of it. He refuses to acknowledge that issue, too.
But back to your questions. He just does not get it at all. Intimacy in his mind is to be feared not enjoyed and I do not know if that can ever be changed with him. I am seriously considering moving out and staying with friends for several months. They are very supportive and want to help both of us out. They understand that I am the one that views our problems as a crisis and that my H thinks that it will all get better eventually. After all of these years of trying on my part it just won't get any better. Unless he really deals with what is causing the blocking of all of his emotions. I'd love to know what has caused all this in him. I doubt if I will ever find out. He thinks that our life is fine, and "we do have sex." Okay, technically he can say that we have sex, but not for nine months now and I just can't take this.
Friday night was a killer for me. He invited me to attend a social business function with him, a bunch of his co-workers and their wives and families. I can easily say that I turned a few heads by dressing nicely but not out of line. New outfit, very sharp. He paid attention to me until a certain business associate came to the event and then I was abandoned by my H to talk shop. Another business associate of his noticed that I had been abandoned and made small talk with me on and off the rest of the night. I felt like a "window dressing." I would be much better off dressed as a schlep with some poor SOB that WANTS me than this. I don't have the desire to be an attachment on someone's arm, I have too much intelligence and self respect for that. I hope that this never happens to me again, but he does keep getting those promotions. I have no idea if I have anything to do with him getting promotions but it might have some bearing.
I had hoped that this event might break the ice for us. I was wearing a new outfit that he had never seen, and his comment was "it looks fine." I was hot and I know it. I was nice, good mood, talkative, but then it all unravelled for me. My hopes were dashed along with my guts. On the car ride back home he complained about how tired he was and just wanted to go to sleep. I knew that I did not stand a chance in hell in evoking desire in him, so we put on our pajamas, he went to bed and I came downstairs and cried for hours.
Saturday I spent all day with my friends. We discussed at length about me moving in with them for awhile until I could find a place of my own. I know that I need to look after myself but I worry about my H. I believe that he will withdraw further in his shell. But I could be wrong.
I have been in abusive relationships before, both mental and horrible physical abuse, so I know the patterns and signs. This situation is not that way, even have asked my friends if they see abuse. They see what I have described to you before, a very passive man that has a very childlike and immature attitude toward relationships. Lots of computer geeks are like this. Some aren't but most are.(Sorry if I am making a generalization, but I know lots of you guys)
Today I broke down and filled my antidepressant prescription. I have been trying to avoid doing that for about two weeks, but I just can't deal any longer, and I am drinking way too much. Clinical depression is a bitch. So I will see how this stuff works and cut back on the booze.
Johanna, my ex was a very passive man and would be totally confused by any accusation that he is or could be covertly aggressive. He never got angry about anything, loved "EVERYTHING" about me, yes sir he never had a complaint about anything. My friends envied me because I was married to Mr. Perfect who could do no wrong. Sounds a lot like your husband. Before he left no one would have ever suggested that he was being the least bit abusive to me.
He was aggressive though and in the worst way a person can be aggressive. He was very underhanded about it. I did things that drove him crazy but Mr. Perfect would never say anything negative to someone, especially not his own wife. He viewed romantic love in an immature way. If it was true love then it was smooth sailing all the way. The only way to keep it that way was to keep his feelings to himself.
After he left he told me he had been living in hell. The same guy who always said his life was perfect had actually been living in hell and it was all my fault for not being perfect. Yep, if I had been perfect there would have been sex every night, nothing but words of tenderness and love wafting through the air and little daisies floating down from the heavens. Sounds so mundane to me but it was exactly what he needed.
I want to ask you some questions about your husband. What is his relationship like with his mother? What was life like for him after his father died? What kind of demands were put on him by his mother because he was the oldest? Something is up with him and it has to do with not feeling safe with a dominant female in his life and more than likely it happened years before you came along. It probably does have something to do with his father's death but more than likely it a symptom of something he mother did or expected of him. Also, is his mother an affectionate person?
You mentioned not wanting to be an attachment and that is exactly what I felt like. Some chair or fixture that was there to look good or be the wife BUT I was never quite sure what being a wife to him meant. He never let me do anything for him. If he was stressed it was kept a secret from me, he didn't have a favorite food I could cook, he could go months at a time without seeing me and seem to do well. He not only could not connect with me intimately but not in any other way either. I think he needed to feel superior to me to feel safe in the relationship. I don't ever remember him telling me he was sorry about something and now he does his sons the same way.
I want to caution you to not miss some of the signs that you might be missing. I didn't see most of what was going on until my husband was gone. I look back now though and realize that he had some problems. Don't get me wrong I had my own set of problems. I was very insecure but I believe I was the type woman that a man like my husband is drawn to.
One of two things will happen if you leave. He will either withdraw into himself to avoid the pain of it or he will finally realize he has to take some action. I don't think how he will react should enter into your decision though. I don't believe in separation or divorce. I would have fought to the death for my marriage because I was just that dependent on him. I would have lived miserably out of fear of leaving. In his own way your husband loves you and what you represent in his life. He needs to learn another way of loving though but if he can't you deserve so much more than you are getting. Cathy
Being passive is one of the most aggressive forms of aggression.
Whew, girl, being an arm chair shrink, I'd guess that your H is keeping you at such a distance so he will never, ever, ever again have to feel anything similar to the pain he felt when his father died. You are up against a ghost.
The very best advice I can give you is hope to heaven you listen up to Cathy. I'm LD, girl, and even I'd say two times a year is nuts.
I personally think you need to get out. Now. Let your H be responsible for himself, you've been doing it for him way too long. You need to take care of you, now.
It's scarey. Change is always scarey. But it sure as hell beats dying inside, and I really think you've eroded away long enough.
God love you. You're in my prayers. Listen to Cathy.
Quote: Saturday I spent all day with my friends. We discussed at length about me moving in with them for awhile until I could find a place of my own. I know that I need to look after myself but I worry about my H. I believe that he will withdraw further in his shell. But I could be wrong. Yes, do leave, he needs a wake up call. Tell him you just need time to think, then be vague on coming back. Let him stew and think, and let him come to you, after he gets his wakeup call.
Tonight I re-read the entire SSM book to see if I have missed anything again. I have not forgotten much since reading it the last time and have tried most of the techniques. But I do fail miserably when I am so depressed as I am now. THe antidepressents have not kicked in yet. Did ask H how often would he like to be intimate. "Not very," was his reply. What an ego boost for me......
Cathy, you want background about his mother. Here goes: Wanted to marry a preacher but married a Marine Drill Sargent so she could get away from her angry, bitter and spiteful mother.(Who also had a bitter mother so we go back a few generations with bitter, angry women) Resented having five children in six years. Resented raising said children. Resented debts that her H left when he died. Very religious, extremely conservative, negative personality. Uncomforatable around people, including her own family. Solitary. Never remarried, not even dated after death of husband. Of the siblings, two have strong, intimate marriages. One has an average marriage. One is almost divorced due to spousal drug problem, and then there is my H and our pathetic excuse of a marriage. God I hope that I am not turning into his mom. I have talked to his sister extensively about growing up to find out about what happenned. Strong positive role with several men in H's life and he continually refers to the positive influences that they were to him. No sexual abuse experiance for my H that she knows of, and my H claims nothing ever happened. Yep, H's mom is a trip. We have little to do with H's family, just birthdays and major holidays even though four of us live within 50 miles of each other. They get along fine when they are together.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Thanks for all of the support. I would be even more insane without it.
WOW! I think I have found my female equivalent on this BB. I'm still married, still frustrated in the same way you are, and taking anti-depressants in order to make it as tolerable as possible! Ain't it grand, Johanna?!!
Now that I've read your entire thread, I wanted to mention that I have left home, back in February. Every night, I slept in my office, on an inflatable mattress under my desk. I would shower at the office, and have fresh clothes stashed in my office. My W knew this, and she was baffled by it. She wanted me back home so we could *work on it* together, and we then started therapy and I returned home. What I now believe is that my W wants the security of a man in the house, and a warm body next to her in bed. That's it!
I still have the mattress stuffed under my desk, and it's still inflated. I suspect it may come in handy soon. To paraphrase you: My W just doesn't get it.
