Hello everyone. I'm new to this site, still getting the hang of these darn abreviations. I've read SSM and SSW. Absolute gold. I'd like to know where you all think I should post. My problem in a nutshell is that for the first few years of my marriage (8 yrs next March), I was a typical HD man. My wife (a typical LD woman) was very accomodating and was of the mindset that it's the husband's part to take the initiative in sex and the woman should just lay there and let him do his thing. I didn't care because we had taken each other's virginity (Me:23,Her:21) and I was finally getting sex. As a note, I realize that's unusual at those ages, but I was raised to believe that sex is reserved exclusively for marriage and my wife (who is less religious than me) saw the example of her promiscuous 10yr older sister and the trouble that flowed from her behavior and so turned away from that side of herself. Then I came along, patiently wooed her, didn't expect sex, and she admits she was floored and didn't know there were men like me.
Now, to the problem. For the last couple of years, I noticed my sex drive slipping, at first imperceptibly. I started blaming my wife; there have been many heated arguments about why I want her to do so much new things, can't I just be happy with what I get, and so on. I'm not asking for fetish sex, multiple partners, or anything else unusual. Just for her to initiate sex once in a while and be more than an immobile if willing vessel in bed.
The other part of the problem is that I decided to see a urologist to see if my trouble with getting an erection or even wanting sex was because of something physical rather than beginning to find my wife more and more sexually boring. Blood pressure, pituitary hormones, and many other things checked out normal. All except testosterone. The doctor said my testosterone level was about 2/3 of what it typically is for my age group. He said that's not low enough to worry about medical problems and that he doesn't like to prescribe hormones unless a man is 1/2 or less normal levels. Instead, he gave me a Cialis prescription. It's helped somewhat.
The main points of my problem are these: 1)I changed, my wife didn't. 2)She probably feels cheated from having a "normal" man who will take whatever sex he can get. 3)I dearly love my wife and completely trust her; she would never betray me at all because of the example of her sister and she is a very honest person who considers keeping promises a point of honor. I don't want to leave a good woman like her. 4)The only thing we argue about is sex. We completely agree on finances, changes to our house, visiting family, all those kinds of things. I feel that if we could just get the sex thing right, our marriage would be perfect. I know, no such thing.
Please help me, people. I need to know where to go with this. Where should I post? God help me, I love her. Please help me not to leave her.
Married:nearly 8 yrs no children (neither of us wanted them) live near my side of the family wife has somewhat frequent contact with her sister now that her sister has changed her behavior due to health problems and even gotten married (real change is possible, sometimes after much pain)
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew, Chapter 19, Verse 9, NIV)
Welcome to the SSM forum.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
You used the phrase "ravish her against her initial resistance". How do you tell such resistance from the real thing? I'm very afraid to do anything against my wife's will with regards to sexuality. I certainly don't want to go to prison.
This is re-post of mine from the First Chapter thread, but I think it answers your question above:
I see four basic 'models' that husbands follow in initiating sex with their wives, some of which work better than others:
(1) The Indirect Approach: commonly used by oft-rejected, insecure husbands. This method usually takes the form of an indirect question such as "Are you tired tonight?" This leaves the woman having to first 'mind read' and figure out the question behind the question, and promptly puts the initiation 'ball' in her court without warning or warm-up. It's a turn-off for her, and rarely works.
(2) The Hand-Off: this is a more direct question, such as "Wanna go upstairs?" While certainly better than (1) it still plops the initiation 'ball' in her court without warning or warm-up, and can still be a turn-off, or more properly stated, it isn't a turn-on. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't.
(3) Seduction: Recognizing that women frequently need time and motivation to warm-up to the idea of making love that night, men should begin their seduction that morning, by emotionally connecting with their wives in non-sexual ways. Build up that connection throughout the day, and once the kids are off to bed, make those connections more sexual, i.e. more seductive. Be confident, and don't be in a hurry -- let her savor the warm-up period. For the husband in a sex-starved marriage, the above is very difficult to do. It means taking a risk, and making himself quite vulnerable to rejection yet again. But if you can find the confident nerve to do it, it will yield far better results for you than approaches (1) or (2).
Most women are content with seduction, but there are a few who would like their husbands to go a step further, and a bit 'darker' on occasion.
(4) Taking Her: even ignoring some initial resistance or refusal. Doing this requires a DEEP bond of trust between husband and wife, and some careful pre-arrangement: as you aptly points out, this does get you into potential 'rape' territory, and BOTH partners need to feel protected and safe in the arrangement.
Three things are a MUST in order to use (4), and need to be discussed openly outside of the bedroom:
(a) The wife must approve of and verbally consent to this form of approach for her husband. In most cases, it really ought to be the wife's idea to pursue this in the first place, NOT the husband's. Thus, permission is indeed given, but well outside of the act.
(b) A safe-word must be established, usually something silly, easy to remember, short (usually two-syllable), and completely unrelated to anything in the bedroom: such as "French Toast!" If at any point in the process the wife uses this safe-word, it means GAME OVER -- STOP IMMEDIATELY: i.e. permission is removed. In addition, any particular 'hard' boundaries need to be openly discussed and agreed to ahead of time (i.e. "Never do XXXX to me").
(c) Trust. The wife must be able to trust that her husband, at ALL TIMES, will respect her boundaries and monitor her physical (and mental) safety --> if the safe-word is used, or even if it isn't but he still feels like a boundary has been potentially crossed, then he stops immediately...period. The husband must trust his wife to monitor herself and inform him immediately if a boundary is approached: he is trusting her to keep them BOTH within the acceptable limits.
As I said, this is an exploration of the 'darker side' of human sexuality, and isn't for everyone. For most women, they're probably better off with this just as a fantasy, and it is not something they would want to adopt in their actual relationship. I definitely WOULD NOT recommend it for a strained relationship, where the bond of trust and the emotional connection between husband and wife are both weak. This ONLY works for a couple with a strong emotional connection and a very high degree of trust between them. I also recognize that (4) is a very politically-incorrect topic to even bring up these days, so hopefully I've covered it in a responsible manner.
One final note TnGuy: as someone who suffered through nearly 20 years of strained marraige and frequent sexual rejections, my own sexual self-confidence is still very much on the mend. I frankly can't take much in the way of initial resistance from my wife, before my own sexual desire plummets, and I call it off before any safe-word is reached (I think she's used it once in the last few months). However, those times when it has worked, and worked well for BOTH of us, have been wonderful for both my self-confidence in approaching my wife, and her self-confidence in her desirability to me. The experiences have been therapudic for both of us in that sense, beyond just the fun and the 'play' of it.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I was a typical HD man. My wife (a typical LD woman) was very accomodating and was of the mindset that it's the husband's part to take the initiative in sex and the woman should just lay there and let him do his thing. I didn't care because we had taken each other's virginity and I was finally getting sex.
....my wife (who is less religious than me) saw the example of her promiscuous 10yr older sister and the trouble that flowed from her behavior and so turned away from that side of herself.
For the last couple of years, I noticed my sex drive slipping, at first imperceptibly. I started blaming my wife; there have been many heated arguments about why I want her to do so much new things, can't I just be happy with what I get, and so on. I'm not asking for fetish sex, multiple partners, or anything else unusual. Just for her to initiate sex once in a while and be more than an immobile if willing vessel in bed.
2)She probably feels cheated from having a "normal" man who will take whatever sex he can get.
The above description raises an alarm flag with me, although it doesn't sound unusual for your backgrounds/beliefs. It sounds to me like she is simply doing the "wifely duty" bit --> permitting you to have simple intercourse until you have your orgasm....done. To that I would say:
BOTH of you are missing out on the wonderful, God-given, pleasures to be had between a married man and woman. The primary purpose of sex is not procreation, and it isn't a duty a wife performs for her husband so he can 'get off.' The primary purpose of sex is to bind the man and woman together as a couple in pleasure, in love, and in a level of physical and emotional intimacy that nothing else can surpass. To that I would add that NOTHING is sinful or dirty that goes on between a husband and wife in an exclusively monogamous, married relationship, as long as coercion or abuse is not involved.
How would you answer the following questions (and yes, these are personal, so don't answer if you feel too uncomfortable:
(1) Has she, past or present, explored her own sexuality in any way? (2) Does she masturbate? (3) How do you feel about masturbation, yourself? (4) Does she touch and try to pleasure you during sex? (5) Does she permit you to try to pleasure her to orgasm? (6) Have you been able to successfully stimulate her clitorally to orgasm? (7) Do either of you give / receive oral stimulation?
These will give us some idea as to where you / her are sexually at the moment. My initial thought is that the two of you should seek out and start seeing an AASECT certified Sex Therapist in your area, preferably one with a pro-marriage viewpoint and also an experienced couples counselor. It may take the input of that third party to convince her that change is necessary AND will be very beneficial to your relationship.
Finally, you mentioned having a copy of The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women, in addition to a copy of The SSM. Has your wife read either of these? Would she be receptive to the idea of reading them if you asked her?
Take care,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
In answer to your questions (yes they are personal, but that's the good thing about an anonymous website):
1) I'm not sure exactly what you're asking with this one. Please clarify. 2) She says no, and I've never caught her doing so. 3) Nothing wrong with it, but an obsessive focus on it is harmful. 4) If you mean while we're having intercourse, I don't see how that is possible. Please clarify. 5) This has never been a problem.She usually has 2-3 orgasms before I have mine. We are somewhat different in size, so the skin/hair/muscle above my genitals is pressing into and stimulating her clitoris during intercourse fairly consistently. 6) If you mean manually, yes. This was more frequent when we were dating, as we did not have intercourse until a week before our wedding. 7) She'll do it for me briefly (not to orgasm) if I ask. I have done so for her in the past, but I've never been able to bring her to orgasm orally. My jaws tire out first.
To your last question, my wife isn't interested in reading as a general rule. She did so in college as was necessary for coursework, but she hardly ever reads of her own choice. However, she's mentioned that from time to time she has flipped through some of the books on the shelf that I've given over to marriage, sexuality, and so forth.
Finally, what is AASECT? I generally don't click on links without knowing where I'm headed first.
Thanks for your answers, TnGuy, and sorry for the ambiguous questions. Let me give you some comments on your answers and clarify the ones that I didn't make clear.
(1) Has she, past or present, explored her own sexuality in any way? (A) I'm not sure exactly what you're asking with this one. Please clarify.
I was being rather general with this one, but what I was wondering was: would she consider herself to be a sensual/sexual person? Has she, now or in the past, taken an active interest in sensual/sexual pleasures (either with herself, previous partners, or with you) or has she explored or experimented with anything new over the years?
(2) Does she masturbate? (A) She says no, and I've never caught her doing so.
This fact works to your disadvantage, if you're trying to get her to be more sexually frequent and explorative with herself (and you) now. She needs the ability to figure out how her body works on her own, which will then spill over in a positive way into your own lovemaking. Have you ever tried buying her a vibrator? As a gift from you, that is, if it has your blessings, she might try it out. DanceQueen and I have our personal favorites to recommend, but I won't go into that at this moment.
(3) How do you feel about masturbation, yourself? (A) Nothing wrong with it, but an obsessive focus on it is harmful.
Fair enough --> there are lots of religious folks who would disagree, so I thought I'd check.
(4) Does she touch and try to pleasure you during sex? (A) If you mean while we're having intercourse, I don't see how that is possible. Please clarify.
I define "sex" as anything from foreplay to post-play and everything in between. Does she touch, stroke, or kiss your body, particularly in erogenous zones? Does she touch your genitals and stroke your penis? Does she ever do anything to bring you to orgasm outside of intercourse?
(5) Does she permit you to try to pleasure her to orgasm? (A) This has never been a problem.She usually has 2-3 orgasms before I have mine. We are somewhat different in size, so the skin/hair/muscle above my genitals is pressing into and stimulating her clitoris during intercourse fairly consistently.
You're one of the lucky ones, then. Only about 25% of women can reach orgasm through intercourse alone (without direct clitoral stimulation).
(6) Have you been able to successfully stimulate her clitorally to orgasm? (A) If you mean manually, yes. This was more frequent when we were dating, as we did not have intercourse until a week before our wedding.
Again, good for you. The fact that she is orgasmic is a huge PLUS on your behalf, and bodes well for further exploration.
(7) Do either of you give / receive oral stimulation? (A) She'll do it for me briefly (not to orgasm) if I ask. I have done so for her in the past, but I've never been able to bring her to orgasm orally. My jaws tire out first.
Doing either of these (giving and receiving oral stimulation) varies greatly from woman to woman. Providing oral stimulation to you may be something that can be developed (and that she can enjoy). As for you pleasuring her this way, you might want to pick up a copy of Ian Kerner's She Comes First and give it a read -- it's a VERY informative read on female anatomy, the female arousal cycle, and oral techniques that work well and DON'T kill your jaw.
AASECT, by the way, stands for American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. It the certifying agency for sex therapists, and their website has a search feature that will let you find therapists in your area. If you don't like my link, then Google them.
My impression, TnGuy, is that you and your wife have fallen into a regular pattern (an oft repeated 'sex script') of intercourse-oriented sexual encounters. And like many couples, you've found that over the years, this gets to be predictable and somewhat boring --> one or the other or both of you begin to lose interest in sex...it becomes 'stale.' I'm not saying that *every* sexual encounter has to be unique and exciting -- 'predictable' sex is safe and comforting and works a lot of the time -- but perhaps it is time to start introducing some variety and spice on occasion: be playful, try new things, develop new skills, change it up every now and then.
Pick up a copy of DQ's favorite: The Guide to Getting it On, by Paul Joannides. I prefer this fat volume over the revised classic The Joy of Sex, which tends to be a little shallow in coverage of topics.
In the meantime, make sure that you are romancing her, making her feel cherished, and practicing the art of seduction when it comes to trying to tumble her into bed. You already have a copy of The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women, so you know what I'm talking about.
That's enough for now -- I hope that gets you started, or at least thinking (or debating with me -- that works too).
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
1)No, I wouldn't say that she considers herself such a person. And I may have been unclear, but I think I mentioned that we took one another's virginity, so she's had no previous partners.
4)Very little of this sort of touching. And no, no orgasms for me outside of intercourse.
Thanks for the AASECT info. I'm sorry if I offended you. It's not that I don't like the link; I'm just now learning the internet and have heard all sorts of horror stories about bad sites, viruses, etc. I spent nearly a 100 dollars on some security software. Again, I apologize if I offended you. And good advice about The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women: I've read it but never really made an effort to put its advice into practice. I've no doubt that I can be an unbearable b*st*rd when I'm not happy. Even if I just work on meeting one of the 5 needs consistently, it'll probably make a big difference. Thanks again.
TnGuy...just my two cents, but if you two took each other's virginity away, then she simply has no way other than within your sexual relationship to "know" what she likes, doesn't like, who she really is sexually.
And "who a woman really is sexually" is a difficult thing for each woman to sort of "grow" into. Many women don't really get into their own sexual self until they are in their 40's...after children, after their careers....basically after they take care of everything else in their lives, THEN they will focus on their sexuality.
So...you are at a bit of a disadvantage that you two were virgins when you met, because this means she has had no way to experiment a bit with her feelings, emotions, and sensations....and it also means that she relates "sex" with only what you and she have done thus far. And because so far, she has basically only been a willing partner but not enthusiastic, she has "learned" that this is what sex IS....how else could she define it or feel it or experience it?
The good news is that even if this doesn't change in the short term, it MAY change in the long term on her own as she gets older and moves forward in her life, as I described above.
The bad news is that unless you both are willing to be brutally honest and WORK TOGETHER on this issue, then she is unlikely to change and you will have to just accept the so-so sex with her.
Hi, everyone. Sorry for taking so long to reply. The last few days have been taken up with lots of busywork. Nothing momentous, just the little tasks that can pile up all at once.
DQ: Your observations are quite good, as always. Your statement about brutal honesty is interesting in that it's a character trait that is quite often mentioned by those who know me. I've heard statements similar to yours that women later in their 30s and into their 40s become more sexually responsive, all other factors being equal.
You said that my wife has no way of knowing what she likes sexually. Wouldn't the physical sensations of sex teach her what's pleasurable and what's painful? Perhaps I'm missing a deeper meaning in your statement.
As for news and progress, a few things have happened recently.
1)Sunday I came home from work around 2:30 pm. My wife had the day off. We talked off and on, nothing consequential, until around 6:00 she joined me on the couch in front of the tv. I'd been there since about 4 pm after doing a few house tasks. She had finished hers by 6. She occasionally made small talk, then with increasing frequency, which I remember thinking that "she's not usually this talkative." After a while, I would notice her looking at me in a secretive fashion (she didn't think I noticed). I wondered "what the h*ll have I done now" but said nothing. Then around 8pm, she suddenly stood up and said sort of in an annoyed tone "I guess I should cook before it gets any later." We had ribeyes and french fries (she's an awesome cook).
2) Then Monday night, I made some small advances. I don't work on Tuesdays, so I usually feel less stressed on Mondays. My moves were nothing out of the ordinary: foot massage, hugs, a kiss on the neck (in that order). After the kiss, it was like I had slapped her. She turns and says "why should we do what you want if you didn't want to yesterday when I was in the mood. You were so nice then you didn't do anything but talk and lay on the couch." I was floored. I was like "you wanted to? Make it more obvious next time and I guarantee I'll be there."
So I think it comes down to a matter of differing styles. In hindsight, I did feel SOMETHING unusual in her behavior that night; I just didn't realize what it was till too late. I swear to God, if she initiated sex once in while and I realized it, I would lose my d*mn mind I'd be so aroused.
She just has a problem with sexual forwardness, I think because of her older sister's behavoir years ago that embarrassed and disgusted my wife a great deal. I've told her on several occasions that the difference for her(my wife)is that she can hold her head up high that she didn't indulge in those same behaviors and saved herself for marriage. "You should reward yourself now by enjoying sex within the accepted relationship of marriage" I've told her on occasion. She usually says some version of "I know, I'm trying." I suppose my role as a husband is to be more perceptive to her subtle advances and to make her feel as safe as possible with me.
Tn, you asked: "Wouldn't the physical sensations of sex teach her what's pleasurable and what's painful? Perhaps I'm missing a deeper meaning in your statement."
Not really. That's how it works for a man, they feel it and they know what feels good, so that's how they go forward with sex.
For a woman, its a lot more convuluted. A woman doesn't directly "feel" as much as she emotionally navigates through the sexual experience, especially the first experiences.
She may even block herself entirely from feeling the physical sensations...which is why most very young women in their first sex experiences don't have orgasms. Sometimes they don't even "get" what other women are talking about.
So in other words, a woman's mind is at the forefront of her sexual experiences, not her genitals.
For a man, I believe the opposite is true, for early sexual experiences.
Over time, both men and women learn to incorporate more of the mind (men) and the physical sensations (women).
However...if a woman has only learned that sex = one thing, she will tend to not explore further than that. She will tend to just make up her mind what sex is equal to.
So in your case, your wife has learned that sex = her being willing but not enthusiastic.
With your encouragement to help her see that it could be so much more fun for BOTH of you if she can learn that sex = her being enthusiastic, then she will probably make an effort.
I do want to comment on the things you keep saying about her sister...I know you have very strong opinions about this, but from the way you are describing things, and especially if your wife feels the way you do about her sister....then you are both doing yourselves a disservice.
Regardless of the consequences her sister may have paid for sleeping around or whatever the story is, this should have NOTHING to do with your sex life in your mind OR your wife's mind.
And if it is in either of your minds to the extent that I fear it is based on how many times you have brought it up....aye aye aye. Its just really unhealthy for you two to have a fascination about how her sister's sex life has messed her up so badly.
Please try to understand....I am not exactly sure how I got in this position, but I know a LOT about sex now....and one of the things I know is that how you perceive other people's experiences will affect YOUR experience.
It would be best for you to stop mentioning the sister, in either a good or a bad light, so that you can let that whole issue slide out of your mind - - hopefully forever.
Hopefully it will slide out of your wife's mind more and more as years go by...but the reality is that, hey, I've known a lot of wayward wild oats sewing folks in my life...and they don't always end up in a bad position. Some of them just like a lot of good sex with a lot of different partners!
Regardless of how you think your opinion on the subject of her sister matters, all that really matters is that you are causing a mental connection issue between your wife and her sister in your mind and in hers, because you are focused on it sooooo diligently. Please let it go.
