Maybe we shouldn't take it personally, but unfortunately I think most of us do. I think this often becomes a downward spiral. Wife doesn't want to, we see it as a rejection and take it personally. Pull back a little which causes them to pull back a little. Etc, etc.
Sex is such a taboo subject and often difficult to talk about, so it falls by the wayside and lurks in the shadows. I know in my situation, I rarely got upset about anything and wouldn't argue. If something irritated me, I would just push it to the side and get over it. Sex was one thing I would make a point of bringing up when things weren't going right. She would get mad at me for always bringing this up. I think she ended up viewing this as sex being the only thing that I cared about. Communication is key.
I guess it depends on a few things...I think guys do take it personally, and that's understandable, but it's how it's handled I think. Obviously if she's suffered sexual trauma, it's a very complicated sitch, and I don't know what to say about that in particular.
I feel like my H doesn't take things I say at face value. If I'm really really tired (like when the kids were very small), I AM really really tired. His take: I don't want him, I never want him, I'm never going to want him. So to counter his insecurity I do it anyway, and then I don't feel good about it.
Also..and I'm sure you guys have read this somewhere at this point, nasty comments about how "you never want sex" are counter productive! LOL. Also, my H will exaggerate. If we haven't had sex in a week, he'll say it's been a month, or the ever popular "never." Just causes the defenses to go up and it's a fight about the fight.
So, in agreement with others, communication is important. So is wearing a suit apparently!! Sometimes it's the little things too, LOL. Do what works!!
'So to counter his insecurity I do it anyway, and then I don't feel good about it.'
Apparantly my W did this as well, on our counselor's advice, until her resentment of me was unbearable.
Of course, I wasn't fully aware she was just putting up with it, but I sensed it and it was not very interesting to have sex with someone who seemed to be unresponsive.
Communication ? What's that ?
Sometimes it's like we do actually speak a different language. I think it is because my W reads my 'tone' ( which she often misinterprets) instead of my actual words.
My 'tone' may actually be adding an additional layer of meaning, but not the one she interprets it to be.
And sometimes I have actually pulled out the dictionary to read definitions, bc IMHO she is confused. She seems to takes cues as to how a word has been used in her expereince and that definition can differ from what the dictionary says, and from what I mean to say.
It gets complicated.
I have suggested a Retrovaille weekend as a possiblity to help us with our communication. I doubt she will ever do it but its worth asking.....
Last edited by native; 10/16/0810:04 AM.
Me 47, W 32,D 6, Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7 Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09
I just read the first few entries on you first thread and it brought back all the feelings of bewilderment I had just b4 and during the bomb. Only my W never had a PA/EA, as far as I know.
It is such a profound betrayal when our spouse makes the decision to throw away their vows. I wonder if they will ever have a lucid moment to understand what they have done to us, and how they could have addressed their frustrations (with us, with the R, etc) differently.
Sometimes I think that when it happens to them they will understand, but I doubt they will ever fully face up to their part in the matter, or the pain they have caused by not taking responsibility for their own emotions/needs.
Me 47, W 32,D 6, Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7 Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09
Seriously, my H is half crazy. So, if I didn't "do it" he would pout and hold it against me for days. So I let that influence me instead of just calling him on it. Y'know? So half my fault. The flip side for me, is that, in true passive-aggressive fashion, he criticized me a lot for not "initiating" enough..so I made a point of doing the whole waiting in the bedroom thing, as a surprise, scene set in an UNMISTAKABLE way...and he came in, glanced at me, and then acted like I wasn't there. Went about his business and then left the room, went in the kitchen and started doing dishes. Guess how many times I initiated after that? Has never been able to explain why he did that. He doesn't know. To punish me for existing is how it feels. (I told you he wasn't a normal person!!)
On the tone thing, this seems to be a major issue for us. I listen to you guys and I think...they really don't know how they sound I guess. It's hard for women to separate that, I am struggling to understand this from your POV. Another anecdote, H called me one day at lunch and we had a terse conversation, he immediately started ordering me around and I got mad and we hung up. The answering machine had recorded the convo! In an act of God, H actually listened to those messages (he normally acts like we don't have an AM)..and when he heard himself, he came and apologized to me immediately. He said he had no idea he sounded like that, and he didn't mean it that way. I was stunned. But he still does it. It is going to take en enormous leap of faith for me not to "hear" his tone, but I guess I could give him...half the benefit of the doubt...LOL. So much to think about!!!
W just moved out yesterday. I was extreemly angry about the whole thing. Still am. Though I don't explode on her, I do give an earful to my buddy at work. I still cannot accept the betrayal of our vows (though there is no OM. If there was, I don't know how I would act).
She even implied (by her voice and tone, never by actual words) that she needed my help. I helped pack a bit the other night, but I had planned to work, so I could not drop everything to help her today.
The night before, when she was packing up, things got so tense at one point, bc she is not interpreting things in the way I mean them (that tone thing again, or she is interpreting everything throught a lens of guilt), that I threatened to call the cops and have her removed.
That felt good for a moment, but only created a very defensive, nasty response. Went upstairs for 15 min. and came back down, apoligised and we worked through the issue, and I did help her pack. (BTW, she will never forget that I threatened to call the cops, nor will she forgive me for saying it, if I know her.......unless the forgiveness fairy smites her on the head).
About noon the next day she calls and asks if she can transfer some $$$ to turn on gas, water, elec. She has already borrowed close to $4000 from her brother and mother, with no means of paying them back, much less paying her rent, utilities, etc.
I authorized her initial request of $100. She later tells me she transferred $300 and hopes it did not mess me up. ( could have, but I am actually making decent $$ again for now).
I had plans for that $$, and it wasn't to finance her 'freedom dream'. But I want her to see she needs me on some level, and that I can provide for her.
Anyway, mixed feelings, but I call later around supper time and invite her to go out to eat with D6 and I.
Although we have some $$ talks to work through, I think the small peace offering of dinner was appreciated, though she was in the middle of unpacking with the help of her M and D.
Whats the point? I have to decide if I want to slam the door closed as she walks out, or keep it cracked, so she can come back if she decides to.
Me 47, W 32,D 6, Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7 Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09
The night before, when she was packing up, things got so tense at one point, bc she is not interpreting things in the way I mean them (that tone thing again, or she is interpreting everything throught a lens of guilt), that I threatened to call the cops and have her removed.
That felt good for a moment, but only created a very defensive, nasty response. Went upstairs for 15 min. and came back down, apoligised and we worked through the issue, and I did help her pack. (BTW, she will never forget that I threatened to call the cops, nor will she forgive me for saying it, if I know her.......unless the forgiveness fairy smites her on the head).
hi native...
I want to say this really gently.
But dude. You say W misinterprets you all the time, and calls you a bully even though you don't think you are a bully. However you just admitted that "it felt good" to threaten her with the cops, but just for the moment. (And say a little sharply that she's never going to forget that. Well. No. I doubt she will.) That speaks to me that perhaps you say hurtful things that make you feel good for a minute but create, in your own words, defensive nasty responses. How do you predict someone, anyone, to respond to that? And then immediately say she won't forget it. My H thinks he can say anything he wants to me under stress, and that I should just "forget about it" because "he didn't mean it."
I am telling you this sincerely out of a desire to help. I'm not sure you are really really in touch with your feelings and how angry you possibly are. Maybe a lot more resentment is coming out in your "tone" than you realize. Is that possible? Are you sure she is misinterpreting you? Misinterpreting the feelings behind the words? Really think about it.
I know how angry I am. And I can see how you might think that this is what caused this situation.
But the thing that started this whole episode was a simple question: ' Hey, are you taking the Dr. Phil 'Family First' book ? My tone was slightly surprised.
My hope was that maybe she was going to read it and that this was some glimmer that she was considering working on our R.
She got defensive and angry immediatly bc she interpreted it to mean that I thought she was ' such a bitch that she didn't care at all about' our family. That was her interpretation of my surprised tone.
I have been dealing with a whole hell of a lot of anger since she dropped the bomb. That I have been able to contain it as well as I have and remain helpful and friendly is I think a minor miracle.
Before the bomb, we both had moments of anger over various things. Things that were not getting addressed, things that had no answer at the time.
BW, my W abandoned me and my D emotionally for almost 5 yrs and left me to take care of everything outside of her work. And we both worked full time.
She is only now abandoning me physically.
The first two yrs of our M were very difficult due to some intimacy issues she brought into the M and my being unprepared to know how to respond.
She would explode into frequent violent episodes sometimes breaking things (about 3x a week) until she was diagnosed with PTSD and got on medication.
I never would understand what set her off at the moment, but it certainly had a lot to do with her inability to communicate her needs in an effective manner so I could be brought alongside as a helper and not make things worse or feel hurt by her accusations.
I appreciate your concern re my anger, but I do feel she has jumped ship after I tried to jump through every hoop she put in front of me.
Its a long story.
Me 47, W 32,D 6, Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7 Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09
native...sorry if I came off as accusing, because I didn't want it to sound that way. I know you're trying really hard to deal with a lot of trauma. From what I know about people with PTSD, is that the people around them, especially mates, are generally stripped of their own feelings while dealing with this loose cannon in the midst of the family. So I do appreciate what you're going through.
Sometimes it's the little things too, LOL. Do what works!!
It's hard for women to separate that, I am struggling to understand this from your POV. Another anecdote, H called me one day at lunch and we had a terse conversation, he immediately started ordering me around and I got mad and we hung up. The answering machine had recorded the convo! In an act of God, H actually listened to those messages (he normally acts like we don't have an AM)..and when he heard himself, he came and apologized to me immediately. He said he had no idea he sounded like that, and he didn't mean it that way. I was stunned. But he still does it. It is going to take en enormous leap of faith for me not to "hear" his tone, but I guess I could give him...half the benefit of the doubt...LOL. So much to think about!!!