I love my wife dearly. We have been married 17 years. I am just now realizing that I guess our sex drives have been very different from the start or at least that is what she is telling me. I purchased the SSM book in hopes of improving our relationship. We have talked more openly about our feelings in this area of our relationship and others. But some of this has been very hurtful.
I think she has been trying to understand my desires but last night was difficult. I had read in a magazine about a challenge in the same article that I heard about this book. The challenge was to make love for seven days straight. Well this week I thought willingly she agreed. Monday night was incredible. Then as we talked Tuesday things seemed to slide down hill for me. She told me that our lovemaking was predictable. Now this would not be hard to overcome except she is in control of this part of our relationship. I think I would try anything she wanted accept having another person in our relationship but I don't think she wants this either because of her conservative nature. I asked her to think on how we could make things less predictable. Well her comment ate on me all day. I personally find it hurtful that she does not want me. I understand what the book says but come on I am a MAN or at least I thought I was. I workout to keep in good shape. I give her flowers, poetry, help with the housework, help with the kids (all of this she agrees with). Last night when we went to bed we talked some and she did tell me a couple of things she "might" want to try. I was thinking ok things are heading in the right direction. Then she said I don't want to make you mad but I don't really want to make love tonight. I just cannot understand why if we are offered a chance to win a trip for making love seven days in a row then posting our comments to questions how this could possibly be negative. We are being given an opportunity to be paid almost for one of the most exciting things in my opinion. Even under these circumstances it was not worth it to her.
As far as I can tell she is not interested in other men. She agrees that I am romantic and that I am making a strong effort to help with things she wants help with. Yet she does not understand how it makes me feel for her not to want me. I mean really want me.
I am a christian so divorce is not even a consideration. However, I don't know what else to do to help our marriage be what I want it to be. Maybe my expectations are too high. However, I have never been one to be in a situation where things were not right and I was not willing to do something to fix them. Yet it seems I have opened pandoras box and the more I try the more I end up hurting myself and frustrating her. I am rambling so I am going to stop this post now. But I am hurt to the core and I told her that last night. Why can't I rekindle or maybe just establish a truly passionate relationship with the woman I love?
I'll offer up a few suggested based upon your post, and hopefully we can help more as you correspond with us and share more information.
(1) Let the magazine 'contest' go.
In the overall context of things, it's pretty small potatoes, and your relatiionship is far more important than a free trip somewhere. Such things, like their idea to make love for seven nights straight, are best left for the WOMAN in the relationship to initiate, anyway: they tend to be much more sensitive to context, setting, mood, your overall connection level and so forth.
(2) Consider it a BLESSING that your wife is talking to you about sex, and act on what she says.
You can't fix what you don't know is broken, so take what she's saying seriously and work to improve things with her. If you get too upset of feel 'crushed' over what she's saying, she's likely to shut up and keep it to herself -- then where would you be? In DanceQueen's latest thread, you'll find an entire discussion about men's reluctance to talk about emotional issues in general, and about their inability to handle sexual criticism in particular. If you're going to make your sex life better, you're going to have to learn how to talk about it, and take some criticism too. No one is a perfect lover, and old lovers do tend to get into ruts and 'predictable' patterns.
(3) Look for ways to improve your sexual relationship *outside of the bedroom.*
And no, I'm not being contradictory -- it's just that how a woman feels in the bedroom, and how willing she is to go there, is based A LOT on how things are going outside of the bedroom. Since you mentioned your being Christian and conservative, I'll recommend a book to you: The 5 Sex Needs of Men adn Women, by Gary and Barbara Rosberg. This is NOT a sexual techniques book (although you might want to invest in one of those too at some point), but a book about how men and women approach sex very differently from each other --> and yet how we can understand and work within those differences for a great sex life as a married couple.
(4) Start taking the lead.
You mentioned:
Quote:
She told me that our lovemaking was predictable. Now this would not be hard to overcome except she is in control of this part of our relationship
That bolded statement right there is a sexual turn-off to most women: it signifies that you are letting her run the show sexually, and are thereby emasculating yourself in the process. Women (generally) are sexually attracted to masculinity, and want a man who can take the lead, take her into his arms, and make love to her. Without knowing more about your situation, I won't say more than that, but this is an area not covered in The SSM that may apply to you.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Dear Passion...I second everything Bagheera said (but that is not unusual).
As a woman, please let me describe something for you that I don't think a lot of men understand.
We women want to be seduced. Seduction is an art and a process. It is not a road map. It has nothing to do with how we want to be stroked or what makes us have an orgasm. It has way more to do with our MINDS than our bodies...however if done correctly, our bodies will follow along with a turned on mind.
Men are normally more than happy to do whatever a woman wants and to seduce her. However, many times a man wants a road map for this. He wants her to tell him what to do in order to seduce her.
This causes a quandary because, a woman doesn't actually KNOW how a man is supposed to seduce her. All she knows is how it makes her feel when it is done correctly.
So a conversation like this may result from the above quandary:
Husband: Gosh baby, I sure would like sex more often, but you don't seem in the mood very often.
Wife: Well, I'm just not that into it lately.
H: Hey - tell me what you need to get into it, I'm open for anything!
W: Um...well, I'm not really sure...I just need it to be exciting and not predictable.
H: Ok, well how can I make it unpredictable?
W: If I tell you how, then it will be predictable when you do it.
H: But I'm here, willing to do anything you need....but you won't tell me what it is.
W: (losing patience) I don't know what to tell you!
Now...in the above example, the husband thinks the wife has some magic formula all laid out in her own mind about what she wants and needs in order to get into the mood. He thinks she has this formula but is just refusing to give it to him.
In reality, the wife truly doesn't know! She knows that she needs "something" or that "something is missing". There is some ingredient missing, but because she is NOT A MAN, she doesn't know what that ingredient might be.
So here it goes, I will tell you what that ingredient is: YOUR OWN INNER MASCULINITY AND STRENGTH.
She doesn't know this because she isn't a man, she doesn't experience the full rush of masculinity...but she does and will (most likely) sexually RESPOND to that masculinity.
There is a lot of reading and learning for you to do on this subject...Bagheera has become nearly an expert on it so please do heed everything he says about this topic.
And I will give you a direct suggestion - one which I have given to many of the guys on this forum. Some of the guys have had success with this suggestion and others have gotten just a weird look from their wife...so be warned, it may or may not work but here it is...
Sometime when you are passing your wife in the hallway...make sure she has nothing in her hands and is not on her way to the bathroom or to do any task. The point is, do NOT do this when she has her mind fully on a task she is about to perform. So unexpectedly as you pass her in the hallway, gently but purposely and slightly forcefully, grab her by the shoulders, lightly press her up against the wall, and plant a 10 second deep passionate kiss on her. Then let her come up for breath...pat her on the butt, tell her she is beautiful and then go on with your business.
The point of this kiss is not that it will lead to sex. The point is to leave her breathless, and to show her your passion toward her while using your innate masculinity. The slight force of being pushed up against a wall is a very thrilling rush for a woman to experience coming from her beautiful, passionate and MASCULINE husband.
We do know and understand that you would love to be kissed like this too...we can help you get to that point over time...but start with YOU taking the lead and taking a risk on planting that deep kiss on her without her even knowing it is coming.
I've been reading this board and others for several years now, but until DQ came here, I never really "got" the seduction thing and how important it is. This is just bang on the money:
Quote:
We women want to be seduced. Seduction is an art and a process. It is not a road map. It has nothing to do with how we want to be stroked or what makes us have an orgasm. It has way more to do with our MINDS than our bodies...however if done correctly, our bodies will follow along with a turned on mind.
Men are normally more than happy to do whatever a woman wants and to seduce her. However, many times a man wants a road map for this. He wants her to tell him what to do in order to seduce her.
This causes a quandary because, a woman doesn't actually KNOW how a man is supposed to seduce her. All she knows is how it makes her feel when it is done correctly.
So a conversation like this may result from the above quandary:
Husband: Gosh baby, I sure would like sex more often, but you don't seem in the mood very often.
Wife: Well, I'm just not that into it lately.
H: Hey - tell me what you need to get into it, I'm open for anything!
W: Um...well, I'm not really sure...I just need it to be exciting and not predictable.
H: Ok, well how can I make it unpredictable?
W: If I tell you how, then it will be predictable when you do it.
H: But I'm here, willing to do anything you need....but you won't tell me what it is.
W: (losing patience) I don't know what to tell you!
Now...in the above example, the husband thinks the wife has some magic formula all laid out in her own mind about what she wants and needs in order to get into the mood. He thinks she has this formula but is just refusing to give it to him.
In reality, the wife truly doesn't know! She knows that she needs "something" or that "something is missing". There is some ingredient missing, but because she is NOT A MAN, she doesn't know what that ingredient might be.
So here it goes, I will tell you what that ingredient is: YOUR OWN INNER MASCULINITY AND STRENGTH.
She doesn't know this because she isn't a man, she doesn't experience the full rush of masculinity...but she does and will (most likely) sexually RESPOND to that masculinity.
There is a lot of reading and learning for you to do on this subject...Bagheera has become nearly an expert on it so please do heed everything he says about this topic.
And I will give you a direct suggestion - one which I have given to many of the guys on this forum. Some of the guys have had success with this suggestion and others have gotten just a weird look from their wife...so be warned, it may or may not work but here it is...
Sometime when you are passing your wife in the hallway...make sure she has nothing in her hands and is not on her way to the bathroom or to do any task. The point is, do NOT do this when she has her mind fully on a task she is about to perform. So unexpectedly as you pass her in the hallway, gently but purposely and slightly forcefully, grab her by the shoulders, lightly press her up against the wall, and plant a 10 second deep passionate kiss on her. Then let her come up for breath...pat her on the butt, tell her she is beautiful and then go on with your business.
The point of this kiss is not that it will lead to sex. The point is to leave her breathless, and to show her your passion toward her while using your innate masculinity. The slight force of being pushed up against a wall is a very thrilling rush for a woman to experience coming from her beautiful, passionate and MASCULINE husband.
We do know and understand that you would love to be kissed like this too...we can help you get to that point over time...but start with YOU taking the lead and taking a risk on planting that deep kiss on her without her even knowing it is coming.
Decisiveness, Risk-taking, Passion, Physical Strength (but used in a loving way) and a dash of Ruthlessness (as in I've enjoyed kissing you, but now there are more important things to be done). That is a potent mix for getting a woman worked up. The problem is that most men (including me until recently) are waiting for the woman's permission to bring these qualities out. But that misses the point. The man should not need permission from his woman to be decisive, risk-taking, passionate strong and a bit ruthless. He should be all those things already. So don't wait for permission - as DQ says, when you see a suitable opening just go for it.
Before I go, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) DQ referred to the "full rush of masculinity" - what things do you do that give you that surge?
(2) What books have you read about men, women and sex?
I'm glad you came here.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
I have a post over in Newcomers(dated 10/15/08) that explains my sexual difficulties. I won't paste it over here because it's rather long and I haven't figured out the pasteing thing yet. Some good points have been made here. I think the idea of being a little forceful/seductive/masculine/confident is a fine one. However, if you're a man who's been conditioned to have absolute respect for a woman's rights regarding her own body, such an approach can strike you as bordering on rape. Some men, including myself at times (I'm struggling), are so afraid of ANY accusation of sexual misconduct that they wait for blatant signs of the woman's willingness or even for her to directly request sex. Of course, this does nothing for the woman's sense of self-worth or desirability. Though DanceQueen and I have disagreed elsewhere on these forums, experience has taught me that DQ is absolutely correct in this thread. (Hello, DanceQueen. I won't say anything else of our previous disagreements.) Now a few points:
1)about some of Bagheera's comments: I own a copy of the 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women and completely agree as to its quality. Also, B makes insightful reference that letting a woman run the sex side of a relationship can turn the woman off. B, what if a woman won't permit the man to take the lead a significant portion of the time?
2) about DQ: DQ's post is filled with truth. Sometimes, a man becomes cut off from his inner masculinty and strength (excellent turn of phrase, DQ). If that's your situation, things like exercise, pick-up games of whatever sport you enjoy, etc. can help you reconnect to that.
I'm no authority, but I felt like I had to share with you because it seems our situations are similar. My wife, to her credit, has been trying on her end to be more responsive and in touch with her femininity. But I can tell she has to try and it doesn't come naturally and this turns me off and then that discourages her. I have to fight my own emotions. Check out my post over in the check in here thread in newcomers for more detail.
P.S.: Some women send a guy mixed messages like "Be more sensitive to my needs" and 1 minute later "Why won't you just be more of a man?" Don't feel bad if you're confused a lot of the time. God knows, I am. Good luck and I'll watch this thread as often as I can and contribute more if something helpful occurs to me.
I think the idea of being a little forceful/seductive/masculine/confident is a fine one. However, if you're a man who's been conditioned to have absolute respect for a woman's rights regarding her own body, such an approach can strike you as bordering on rape. Some men, including myself at times (I'm struggling), are so afraid of ANY accusation of sexual misconduct that they wait for blatant signs of the woman's willingness or even for her to directly request sex.
The above statement would have described my thoughts on the matter perfectly about a year ago. I was always uber-considerate of my wife with regard to our sexual relationship...to the point that she had complete control over it and was never really seduced by me: more like, politely and somehwat timidly asked. In order for our own SSM recovery efforts to continue, my wife finally had to sit me down and explain how that approach was turning her off. She is a strong, independant woman by day, but by night she doesn't want to take the lead, she doesn't want to be in charge or in control --> that's my role: if I want to make love to my wife frequently I need to romance her during the day, seduce her by night, and occasionally just take her and ravish her against her initial resistance. In essence, in order to really turn her on and keep her coming back, I had to find my confidence, take the risk, and 'be the man.' And this tectonic shift in our sexual dynamic has opened up entire new vistas of mutual enjoyment and pleasure for the both of us.
From the woman's perspective (which I still struggle to 'grok'), and as DQ explained above, it is highly exciting and arousing to FEEL your husband's masculinity, strength, and yes, dominance in this aspect of your relationship. It also requires a very high degree of trust, especially on her part. BEFORE a woman can truly surrender to her man and enjoy doing so, she must FIRST feel respected, supported, cared for, and cherished by him -- a deep emotional bond must be there. That, to me, is the key difference between ravishing my wife (who willingly surrenders to me and loves it) and rape.
Originally Posted By: TnGuy
Some women send a guy mixed messages like "Be more sensitive to my needs" and 1 minute later "Why won't you just be more of a man?" Don't feel bad if you're confused a lot of the time. God knows, I am.
In today's world, the women are just as confused as the men. I personally think it's a case of the more modern, "thinking" centers of the brain desiring one thing (I want a man who always treats me as an equal; and is kind and considerate at all times, even in the bedroom), and the more primative, emotional / instinctive centers of the brain responding to and become aroused by a man who is strong, dominant, and masculine -- even when he contradicts her 'stated' desired traits. For example, from what I've read there are many strong feminist out there who secretly fantasize about some strong man who will simply 'take' her and to heck with her feminist views. Obviously, most will keep this fantasy bottled up and stick with men who meet their 'thinking' standards, but even today, those masculine 'bad boys' still have thier appeal to many.
Isn't being human fun?
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
You used the phrase "ravish her against her initial resistance". How do you tell such resistance from the real thing? I'm very afraid to do anything against my wife's will with regards to sexuality. I certainly don't want to go to prison.
Also, it's been my experience that many men's greatest fear from early childhood is rejection by a woman. No doubt a follower of Freudian psychology would trace this to a fear of one's mother's rejection. In my case, I often avoid making advances towards my wife because I don't want to hear another "Now?" or "I'm tired." Then after a few days to a week she might say "What's wrong?" or I might notice her looking at me secretly. I know she's wondering why I haven't approached her sexually. I believe that if women want a man to "just be a man" they must build in him a trust that he will be allowed to "just be a man."
To PR: Hang in there, friend. It sounds like you've got a decent woman who's struggling to learn things about what she likes and is probably very embarrassed by exploring this side of herself. I think that's part of my wife's problem. In my wife's case, a 10yr older promiscuous sister and a runaway alcoholic father is the probable source of her trouble. Think on this: Is there anything in or about your wife's past that may have turned off her natural sexual urges? Not necessarily abuse, but perhaps someone she might have looked up to who was caught in some sort of sexual indescretion?
