Max, how I wish I could tell her that I was wrong...that I should have never placed them above their father in my heart....
Why can't you? What is preventing you from telling her this?
The description of how you viewed children versus your partner...
Originally Posted By: DQ
what actually happened was that I put our children as an intimacy buffer BETWEEN myself and my ex-husband.
And now in retrospect, this was not "right". It was not true initmacy with my own children EITHER because I "used" them in this way. I "used" them to pour all my love and devotion upon, while I did not pour the same love and devotion upon my ex-husband. I "used" them to "fill me up" with love...instead of being a mature person who makes herself happy.
...I feel this could have come straight from my wife's hands, if she had some awareness. It is exactly what she did, what she does. And it is exactly what her mother did.
also...
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I could not be completely faithful until I could be completely intimate. This took me years to understand and not until I was divorced and with a new partner did I finally start to "get it". My new partner pointed out to me very clearly the ways in which I was "blocking" intimacy with him early in our relationship. As I explore "yeah, he's right...I really am blocking it...why would I do that?"...over time, I kept sorting through and sorting through it all.
Blocking in what way? can you give an example or two? What did this look like, to you?
" You will have to find a real man to take you away like that "
Soooo is this pain i am hearing. Is he now considering himself a failure as a man because I had an affair. Can you relate to these feelings SPM? Hope I am not analyzing or asking to much of you !
I don't think your question is out of bounds, nor is it too much analyzing. I think there is a balance between obsessing about his thoughts and actions, and looking deeply to empathize and understand. You are on the right side of the balance, in my mind.
I felt a little of this, yes, but it was only very early after the discovery, and it faded pretty quickly. I knew the guy, didn't think much of him, and didn't feel inferior to him in any way. So that helped. Also, some mutual friends learned about it - they knew both me and OM - and they immediately told me they never liked the guy, or they came to me with some old anecdote about how he was dishonest all along. So this kind of helped me feel better about this part, although I am not sure it helped my wife at all.
For me, it was not loss of face, or feeling less of a man. We had (have) 4 kids, so the thing that troubled me was looking over the cliff of divorce. I felt a solemn commitment to provide a loving stable home for the kids, and I knew the affair was a threat to that. That is the thing that scared me the most. That is the thing that still bothers me - the thing I feel worst about. My kids will suffer for our inability to reconcile. I promised myself I would provide a stable, safe home, that I would save for college for them, that I would make enough money to go on family vacations to the beach, etc. All this is out the window now, and it pains me.
From your hubby's reaction, it sounds to me that he is suffering from very low self esteem. This is not your fault although it is true that an affair did not help matters. His self esteem problems are likely rooted in childhood, not in anything you have done.
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Do you recognise any of my behaviours and thoughts in your wife?
Yes, absolutely. The things that you and DancingQueen and Sandi described are all very similar to the patterns my wife exhibited. We had four kids - she loved and doted on them. But she neglected me, from the minute the first child arrived. I loved my kids, too, but I always thought the adult relationship was primary. She didn't.
She also had few close friends. She had friends - lots of people liked her - but none were "best friends." None who were really close. And when the tough stuff started happening, she avoided them, shunned them even, where my inclination was to turn toward my friends. She was very close with my family - I have four sisters who love her - but she has "divorced" them all along with me. I don't know if this is an intimacy problem, or just shame.
She also had problems telling the truth to me, about her affair. I guess that's normal, though. At first she rationalized it as "protecting me" but later it was clear that she was just hiding from me.
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I thought I was independently strong, I am definitely capable and up until this year H had never seen me cry. And when i did cry he turned his back.
Max - "not crying" in a 20-year relationship is not a sign of strength. It is a sign of refusal to be intimate. And him turning his back - that is his own fear of intimacy. You both have it.
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It is hard to approach a C when i you unsure of what you need to know. I can see the waste if you dont get the right C.
Sounds to me like you have some hesitance about counseling. Maybe you are concerned about costs. (you said "Waste"). Maybe though, you are just afraid to get intimate with a counselor, because you are aware that you'll have to have some pretty intimate talks.
Counseling isn't for everybody, but it helps. It's a little like this board, but more immediate and professional and personal. IF you think the forum here is a positive experience, then counseling would probably also be good for you. What could you do to break down this hesitance to learning more about counseling?
In my area, counselors are very willing to have one-hour conversaions - free of charge - to get to know you, explain their philosophies, methods, approaches, personalities. Maybe you couls schedule some conversations and see where it goes? I found that interviewing a bunch of different counselors, I was able to find one who I felt comfortable with.
About your prior question Do you recognise any of my behaviours and thoughts in your wife? - my wife was also resistant to the idea of counseling. And when in counseling, she didn't open up.
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My wife's mother never had another long-term relationship after the affair that ended her own marriage. This was when my wife was 6 years old, coincidentally, the same age as my youngest daughter is now. My wife learned at the knee of an expert, how to hide from intimacy, how to effectively avoid mature love between adult partners.
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Any suggestions about how to find yourself most welcome.
Max I really feel for you. I sense that for you, the affair looms large in how you view yourself. But it isn't the thing that defines you. You're a good person, facing some challenges. That's all. You have done a ton of good things, and you have a lot to be proud of. Don't beat yourself up.
We are all, all of us here, finding ourselves. We are all going through what you are going through - getting a life, making ourselves happy rather than looking for someone else to do it.
I don't know how to do it except to say - go out there and do stuff. Try stuff, see what you like, and do it. Embrace things. Take risks. Learn to salsa dance. Learn to sky dive. Learn to speak Mandarin. Volunteer at the local clinic. Sink your efforts into work more deeply. Whatever. Just go and embrace stuff and see what really spins your propeller. It takes time. But over time, if you ignore what other people think, if you safely avoid thinking "I need a man to...X", if you keep watching your own feet, you will find that you are happy with yourself.
Then you will be strong and independent enough to have a good healthy relationship.
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It is not the physical things or financial things i need from a man. I think I need a man to pay attention to me and care about me - watch my back so to speak.
You don't need a man. You need you. A man might be "nice to have" but you don't need one.
Great answer. you are very good at pointing out the underbelly of my thinking.
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I knew the guy, didn't think much of him, and didn't feel inferior to him in any way. So that helped. Also, some mutual friends learned about it - they knew both me and OM - and they immediately told me they never liked the guy, or they came to me with some old anecdote about how he was dishonest all along. So this kind of helped me feel better about this part, although I am "not sure it helped my wife at all.
Exactly like us. Lots of OM and OMW friends are mutual friends but over the course of the past 4 years when my H would not attend the same functions as them , our friends have slowly excluded them and have made similar disparaging remarks about OM.
AND it does not help me. It makes me feel more responsible and more dirty ( for want of a better word ) and strangely a little protective of OM.
During the years that I was lying about extent of affair, I have felt like I shared a secret and therefore a bond with Om. So I would extend to anyone reading this, if you think you have broken contact but still share secrets, then you have not broken all ties.
As I said before H will confront OM . I swing from horror of that , to, well it will make H feel that OM has nothing on him and he knows it. I can understand to a certain extent.
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From your hubby's reaction, it sounds to me that he is suffering from very low self esteem. This is not your fault although it is true that an affair did not help matters. His self esteem problems are likely rooted in childhood, not in anything you have done.
Absolutely and his C pointed this out and H followed her advice to the letter apparently. He has done things for self esteem, and I have no doubt have helped with all my begging and crying and he says he has learnt to listen to his feelings now.
I think CRAP. I sense the low self esteem and I think his feelings are being supported by negative and ugly thoughts. Once they go - who knows. My fear is that I would of given up the good fight and that more and more destructive behaviour by H would put paid to any type of reconciliation.
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but I always thought the adult relationship was primary. She didn't.
And you are right. My friends that have the marriages we all would envy portray this behaviour. Yes they love their kids, yes they do all the extra activities, support them, look after them but they do not put it above themselves. Yes they may choose to eat McDonalds with kids instead of a nice romantic meal for two UNLESS either one of them felt it was their time. They would have no problem saying no to kids. It is a general sense in the home. Mum sees to dads needs and visa versa. These kids are leaving. This is the right thing to do.
We all need to aim for that in our relationships in the future. Find the balance.
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Max - "not crying" in a 20-year relationship is not a sign of strength. It is a sign of refusal to be intimate. And him turning his back - that is his own fear of intimacy. You both have it.
I suppose I felt I had nothing to cry for. Get on with it - kind of mentality.
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You don't need a man. You need you. A man might be "nice to have" but you don't need on
SPM - I am just not feeling that right now. I wish i could.
I feel ok at moment but I have a nasty suspicion it is because H is on the up. He is showing a tiny bit of interest. i know it wont last and we will all go crashing back down. Thing is , I have to stop pinning my emotion and happiness to him - I can hear you from here SPM.
H Raised the subject of Sunday BBQ with friends. Asked if I was going.
I said "not if it made him uncomfortable". He said "they are your friends to"
So we are left hanging I guess.
Not a big deal in the big picture of life i suppose.
SPM has your realtor been able to make any headway with your W ? I hope and pray that you can soon make some advances in communication. I think you are doing well in your limited resources so deserve a break.
AND it does not help me. It makes me feel more responsible and more dirty ( for want of a better word ) and strangely a little protective of OM.
Yes, the same with my wife. She was protective of this guy. He was an unemployed drunk, and she actually thought he should get the kids in their broken marriage. It was unreal. (he didn't get the kids, and last I heard, does not bother to visit them.)
I didn't want to tell anyone of our situation, but weirdly, my wife told everyone. Like it was nothing. "oh, what's happening with me? Well, we got some new car insurance, and I had an affair." I thought, how insensitive can you be?
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Thing is , I have to stop pinning my emotion and happiness to him - I can hear you from here SPM.
Ha! yes yes yes. Who cares if he is up or down. You have your own moods and emotions and they don't depend on his.
I think you'll probably get some good insight from Sandi, too.
No headway with the realtor. But like you said, this is a long process. Even if we get communication, that is just the start of being able to find a solution to the foreclosure. I don't have a great deal of hope that communication, once established, will lead to fruitful conversations.
SPM...You asked: "Why can't you? What is preventing you from telling her this?"
I did lightly try already once...thought I made a point, and then she said something later that made me sure she had not gotten the point.
I will have another opportunity coming up soon, as they plan to get married and I know she will be willing to listen to some good old advice - especially from me, being that I am divorced from her father...she is marrying a man quite like her father, and she will want to know what is ahead for her.
But this will have to wait another 6 months at least.
I don't know if you have grown children or not, but it is very difficult to tell them "don't do as I did" especially when they are happy and well adjusted, and when they have no idea how deeply you regret some of your own choices. In order to have fuller, more honest conversations with her about this, I would have to drag her father's image through the mud and I am not willing to do that.
However...as I said...as she approaches her own wedding, there will be an opportunity for me to tell her more. I may have to find a "dangers of a child centered marriage" type of book for her and preface my advice armed with marriage and relationship professionals who do not advocate putting your children between you and your spouse.
So my opportunity has not come just yet...I am biding my time until then.
Or DQ you could be the one to quietly encourage couple time and date night. Be available for babysitting and taking kid on holidays and having them over for the weekend.
My mother was staunch about this with me , but I did not take it up. Mainly because she has a great marriage and no one did it for her , so I suppose I did not see the benefit.
You on the other hand have experience and can use that to point out pitfalls of neglecting spouse.
I dont think you have to run H name through the mud to make a point. Share the responsibility of your marriage breakdown and tell her .. I wish that i had of done ....... we may of had a better marriage and hey we may of not..... but daughter it was an area we did not do well in.....dont make our mistake.
Marrying someone like her father may be ok. She is probably different from you , she may be better suited to someone like her father. Don't doom her marriage before it has got off the ground. Give her every bit of support and encouragement even if it means biting off your tongue sometimes..... ha ha
I don't know what to say to help you. Maybe it is time to go see what is out there for you. I don't think you will have a satisfying relationship with anyone until you are over your wife.
Also you have to be careful with your time. You are in the early days of establishing more time with your kids. Get them into happy pattern so that you acn determine what spare time you ahve to invest in another relationship.
I wonder how your W would feel if you did start dating woman. Without you realising she could be confident that you are available to her.
When my H went an got an apartment in the city and was going out , I never cared BECAUSE in my heart of hearts i knew that he was still caught up with me. He did not say a thing, his actions spoke of the life of a single man BUT I KNEW THIS WAS NOT TRUE. Don't ask me why or how. It is something in the attitude that cannot be fake.
When he left a few months ago it was very very different and I worry every day that there could be another woman entering our lives. Again nothing in what he said , it is all in the attitude.
I dont know what to suggest because I know you dearly want your family in tact. I forget how old you are but I am sure that you have many years ahead to enjoy a fantastic life with the right girl. It may not be your W.
Nope, I don't feel low today. I am still cruising on a wave of happiness from the weekend with my kids. It is true that I am not particularly hopeful that I will see immediate changes in the W. The foreclosure we are facing is tricky and obviously laden with guilt for her. It wouldn't have happened if we had stayed in the same house.
But I am not concerning myself with stuff I cannot change. I have some friends coming into town in a couple days, and I have my kids again tomorrow. I am looking forward to stuff.
Without you realising she could be confident that you are available to her.
So far I have given her no indication that I have moved on, to a new relationship. If she knows me, she knows I will not. She had her friends ask about me earlier in the year - checking up on me.
Wanted to add that I decided not to pursue a relationship with the goal of "seeing if it affects her." That's not my style. I'll pursue a new relationship when I want one.
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When he left a few months ago it was very very different and I worry every day that there could be another woman entering our lives. Again nothing in what he said , it is all in the attitude.
I wonder how much of this was YOU and how much of it was his actions. Seems like it was something that changed in you.
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I am sure that you have many years ahead to enjoy a fantastic life with the right girl.
Thanks for the words of support! The way I figure it, I have a good life ahead of me, right girl or not.
The way I figure it, I have a good life ahead of me, right girl or not
Just the exact answer I expected from you.
Ha Ha you desreve better than what you have been dealt.
Knowing my h wouldn't as well is eaxctly the problem .To a certain extent you know you have your H in the wings.
No - nothing to do with me. It was definitly in the way he spoke, he stopped talking about future, using the word ours and us. He started making plans about his future and I was not included. Lots and lots of little things.
I think you should try it. Not thinking you should take up with someone if you are not ready and you definitly dont want to use anyone. Just somehow get some hints out to her.
You got nothing to lose now.
I think your wife sounds like me in some ways. Would like to see where head is at. i know she needs to stand on her own 2 feet and feel in control of her life and maybe once all the yuk side of divorce is over , things will become clearer. Shame kids lose there family home tough BUT you never know it is a small price to pay if there parents can get back together.
