The Bumpy Road to Recovery #2

[diane74]

Thanks for answering......... and I understand completely, I do. I just think its going to take time for me to understand it for myself and apply it. I'm guessing that for me at this very moment I am still very much in the " why " part or the blame game end of it, so I can't get all the way there yet. In listening to you and reading all that you have written it does give me hope though. I will also say that I think after all this even if for me it doesn't end up with a happy ever after as I'll put it, at least I tried it the right way this time.

Ill admit, wow, this is going to take a TON of patience like none before, and a lot of reminding myself to slow down.

So thanks.........

[Bagheera]

This week's episode: Not the best of Weekends, or How Bagheera Screwed Up

In last week's post, I talked about the most recent issue that my wife and I are dealing with in the sexual arena. Part of that issue (her inability to respond positively to some spontaneous show of passion on my part) stems from the fact that she feels like she is already being pushed -- HARD -- to maintain a sexual frequency that is significanlty higher than her 'natural' desire (for now, at least). To her great credit, she's been able to Just Do It! and enjoy it, letting me take the lead and set the pace, but in my enthusiasm I pushed things TOO hard and kept her tachometer in the RED a bit too long.

Typical male, or typical Bagheera (or both). She really needed me to back off a notch or two, and give her some breathing room. Which, last week, I tried to do. Until Friday night.

Date nights always get me. We go out, we have a good time together (with no kids around), we connect emotionally, and I want her -- plain and simple. I don't intend for it to be or feel like an 'obligatory' thing, something that has to happen (which admittedly ruins the romance of it): it's just how I'm feeling after a night out with her. And last Friday night, it didn't happen, and I got miffed by it. And if I had just shut up there and let it go, we could have had a nice weekend anyway. But NOooooo....for whatever reason, I got really pissed off and broke out my laundry list of complaints about her: everything that I had been keeping to myself over the past few months came out in a nice little tirade.

I know better than this. I've read the books, I understand now, after all the years of doing it wrong, how to bring up disagreements and handle them in a non-destructive way. I talk about it here. My temper tantrum was wrong on a few levels:

(1) The root issue was about sex: her desire to curl up with a book for the evening, and my desire to cap the evening off with a nice roll in the hay. Everything else was superfluous.

(2) I broke out the first horseman, CRITICISM, and attacked hard. This hurt her and made her very defensive, and, of course, resolved --> nothing <--.

(3) The issues were primarily ones that I consider to be what the Gottman's call "perpetual issues:" things about her personality and the way that she does things that I really need to just accept and not ask her to change. And I thought that I had done that: we have both been working on the things that are most important to us to change, and have been learning to accept the rest (at least for now...baby steps).

So yeah, I was a jerk, and deserved a night...or two...on the couch. It's also an indicator that I still have too much of the "Nice Guy" in me --> in that as long as I'm 'getting laid' I tend to keep all my other complaints / issues to myself, rather than discussing them (outside of the bedroom) in a calm, honest way with her, and allowing her the chance to air HER issues with me. So meanwhile, the issues quietly stacked up, and when the 'getting laid' part got threatened, they came blasting out in a not so nice way.

By Saturday night, I was ready to talk and make-up, but she wasn't. We did, at least spoon and sleep in the same bed.

By Sunday night, she was ready to make-up, but I had 'shut down' my desire so hard (after Friday and Saturday night failures), that I turned her down. The woman *rarely* initiates, but I just couldn't get myself into the mood to respond properly.

So now it's Monday, and we're still out of step. Hopefully, we've both had enough of a "time out" to get back 'on the road' again soon.

Also, it rained...all weekend, and it's still raining today.

So yeah, guys. Chew me out for not being able to follow my own advice and supposed knowledge in this area. I've still got a long ways to go toward being the man I want to be, and the man who really turns her on.

-- B.

[DanceQueen]

Hi Baggy...as you know, these are common marital mistakes, not just sex-starved mistakes, and not just Baggy and Mrs. Baggy mistakes.

Its so hard when - even WE can see we are behaving like a child and just slinging sh*t because our feelers are hurt - and yet we can't stop ourselves from doing it!

My fiance and I have just finished out a very rough week-long fighting extravaganza where I slept in the guest room for the whole week. We finally got a little better and closer over the weekend, but we are not back to 100% yet...and as usual, being that we are/were fighting, he wants nothing to do with sex, and me...well I could do it in the middle of a fight if he would let me....it never stops me from wanting it with him. But I already know that it will take him another day or two after making up before he is emotionally ready for it again. (Sigh). Poor me.

However, I am getting really good at standing up for myself - in a way that he has to face as reality, instead of just me being a bitch. In other words, usually I do have a valid point about some behavior of his, and if I could effectively communicate it to him, he would (possibly) just say "oh I see your point and I will work on that". But instead, I usually say it in a critical way (which is due to my own hurt feelings) and therefore, he won't listen to it at all and just gets defensive, fight ensues, etc. Anyway, that's my usual M.O. but I AM finally now getting better at saying it in a constructive versus a critical way.

However, the past week full of events all went wrong on both our parts. We know we need counseling to help us with the fighting tecniques and some other issues...so my task this week is to sign us up for an appointment by the end of the week.

I am sorry to hi-jack Baggy....I'm just telling you, I suppose, that even though me and Mr. DQ have really got it going on most of the time, the passion between us causes not only the good sparks, but also the dangerous sparks, too...so I HEAR YOU. I do know what you are saying, how easy it is to backtrack, and how quickly I get sexually frustrated (like within a matter of days) and how this affects how I communicate to him.

He has his side of the equation and his communication problems too, but I only feel right about sharing mine here on the forum.

Baggy, you and Mrs. Baggy are so in love...the passion is building....the coals are almost so hot that they will keep burning without adding any more lighter fluid....you are almost there. It won't take that much more time before you will always know what to say, what not to say, and she will be more and more open to her inner burning coals....

xoxo,

DQ

[Bagheera]

Update;

We're back on a (somewhat) even keel this week, and today I took a risk that worked out rather nicely. I got into work this morning and realized that I had left my decent glasses at home, and only had a very lousy pair of 'backups' with me. I decided to head back home at lunch time and work from the home office during the afternoon.

[light bulb] (and something I would never have tried in the past)

Around noon, I called my wife up and told her the situation. I indicated that I would be walking in the door around 1:30 PM and that I expected her to be in bed, naked, and revved for me. She (predictably) protested, said she had plans to go into town for a couple of hours, etc., but I simply stated my request again as a firm command and said good-bye cheerfully. I gave it a 50% chance that she would actually comply, and I was ready to be in a good mood either way it went -- after last weekend, I wasn't about to pitch another fit. I treated it like the playful game that I meant it to be.

When I got home, her van was in the driveway, but the house was quiet. After settling the dog, I went upstairs to the master bedroom, and she was waiting for me, as per my instructions. It was a fun afternoon indeed. I'm still in 'afterglow.'

This afternoon was also a nice lesson in where we currently are in our sexual relationship dynamic. She has clearly stated that she wants me to take the strong lead, and demonstrate that strength. It's part of what turns her on in a man. At the same time, she regularly protests when I do, sometimes strongly, which sets off all of the old REJECTED!! TILT!! alarm bells in my head nearly every time. So rather than firmly breaking through her natural resistance like she needs me to do, my natural reaction is to skulk off, feeling hurt; that is, rather than being the strong male she can respond to, I end up looking like a hurt puppy.

Truthfully, tossing out decades of Nice Guy training and attitudes, and getting past the pain of over 20 years of sex-starved marriage and sexual rejections is definitely NOT an easy thing to do. At least not for me. I also think that my wife, while generally delighted when it does work, is likewise going through a bit of "be careful what you ask for (or dream about) in your man" feelings sometimes. Nice Guys may not be sexy, but they are predictable and don't make you push your envelope. That said, this spring / summer HAS brought about a rather amazing transformation in our sexual relationship. It's still pretty rough sometimes, and has us both operating outside of our comfort zones, but at the same time, it's worth it.

Take care,

Bagheera

[Bagheera]

Oh, the joys of middle age, or, The Loss of the Auto-Erection.

In a previous post, I surprised myself and talked about how, over the past year, I worked to overcome a life-long problem with Premature Ejaculation. This is still an ongoing process, as ejaculatory control still requires a good deal of conscious effort on my part, rather than occurring more 'naturally' or without much conscious thought. I'll also admit to setting pretty high standards for myself (perfectionist that I am), in that I won't be satisfied until I hit the 'porn-star' mode of staying nicely hard for as long as we BOTH like, and then coming 'on demand' when we're both ready for it.

There has been, however, an unintended consequence of all this, in that we have now seen the other side of the coin, in the form of the occasional erection dysfunction (ED) problem. For the first time in 20 years of marriage, my sexual arousal cycle no longer follows the 'hyper-arousal' curve that it did before; that is, previously I would be almost instantly hard the moment sexual activity began, and my wife never actually touched me (that she recalls) in anything but an already erect state. She, of course, always found this sexually exciting and very flattering to herself. However, with increased ejaculatory control has come a much more female-like arousal cycle for me, meaning that the initial 'excitement' phase leading to the 'plateau' phase is much more gradual, under control, and no longer hyper-active. Since men don't become fully erect until about 50%-60% arousal (where 100% = orgasm), this means that now when she's ready to take me in hand, I will likely NOT be fully erect yet (only 'chubby,' as it where). I am also more likely to lose some arousal during the act of love-making if, for example, I focus all attention on pleasing her for a while (i.e. I'm not being actively stimulated at the time). In other words, by 'solving' my PE problem, I've revealed what pretty much ALL men go through as they hit middle-age.

This has been disconcerting for both of us. We both got pretty spoiled to it always 'being there,' no matter when or what was going on. And it's hard not to take it personally, for both of us too. I start to develop performance anxiety and get frustrated when it doesn't behave "as advertised," and she starts to feel unattractive and like she's not turning me on any more. And the more we both worry about it, the worse the situation gets. It turns into a nice psychological knot.

Ironically, this psychological knot is quite similar to the one that women get into when they feel PRESSURED to becoming aroused and reach orgasm themselves. Such pressure works very much against her ability to do so, and will frequently shut my wife down. I've had to learn to relax and take the pressure OFF of her, and just let things flow as they will -- relax and have fun, whatever happens or doesn't happen.

The same thing now works for me. What we both have to do is to RELAX, and go with the flow of our mutual arousal levels --> to let them wax and wane as our love-making evolves and progresses. I have to learn not to become alarmed if she touches me in a not-so-hard state, while she has to learn the same thing --> to 'romance' and enjoy the 'soft-on' as much as the hard-on. The less pressure there is to perform, the more likely it will be that I'll reach or return to a high level of arousal.

The one thing that we do have going for us is that, thanks to my PE days, I've never left her high and dry, or wanting for attention because I'm done. I take a great deal of pleasure out of pleasing her, so regardless of my own particular state, she'll always get a nice ride out of it. We don't tie her pleasure to mine, but frequently swap giving and taking as we go.

I also don't want to fix this occasional 'problem' with pills, if it can be avoided. It's primarily psychological (for both of us), and we know it. So in perfect irony, I've now shifted from one chapter of exercises in Bernie Z's book, to another chapter of exercises.

I think I want my 30 year old body back...this one is starting to require way too much maintenance...

-- B.

[Cinco]

Hey B,

I have not read the Bernie Z book yet (still on my list though). Our being the same age B, I'm experiencing the same loss of auto-erection. I can also on occasion experience the opposite of PE which is delayed ejaculation (can't quite get there). What I have found (and my wife now knows the right things to do) is that a little extra stimulation helps to get things back to attention and the juices flowing, so to speak. One thing that does it for me every time without fail is if she (Ummm... this is a little embarrassing) plays with my nipples....oops I said it. Whatever it takes right? At least it is a holistic approach.

You may discover some erogenous zones of your own that you hadn't thought about using/stimulating before.

I need to get that new male sexuality soon and start working on those exercises.

Cheers,
Cinco

[Jayce]

Ahhhh, yesssssss, my little chickadees, the 30 year old body indeeeeed! Jayce here, and you know how old mine is.

First and foremost: if either of you smoke, for the sake of your necessary um-abilities-stop it right now!!!! Forget about your lungs & your heart! Those tiny little blood vessels that nicotine wrecks aren't only in your heart, brain & lungs. Guess where else?? Uh huuuuuh. It took a really long time for that to affect my H. First came the heart attack & he still didn't really quit. Sneaky devil. Came across a book, I think its "the hardness factor" or something similar. Can't miss it, white cover w/wide bright red band around the middle. It'll be in the 613. section of the libe. A good diet & exercise aren't just for your hearts. Start now; in only 13 yrs you'll be 60. (And who says a SSW doesn't still have her sense of humor?)

Given my situation of an LD H, the lack of his "being happy to see me" without manual stimulation is not exactly reassuring even tho I know its age more than anything. I keep thinking his brain's not into it since that's where the whole thing starts, right? Have discovered, tho, that some time spent watching a little porn helps. (No, it doesn't make me feel inadequate. I kinda like it, too. The right camera shots....) Not a complete fix, but a good start. We did this once in awhile years ago. Why did we stop? Who knows. Kids were at their dad's every other weekend. Did you ever have dinner nude? Oops. TMI, sorry.

Two months of no smoking made a difference in the ED. Three, even more. Libido still very low, but function is way better. Don't use a pill that often which is good since he doesn't like to. I'm guessing it makes him feel inadequate, tho he'd never tell me. It does allow for a more relaxed, fun experience, tho.
Jayce

[Bagheera]

Greetings Jayce,

No, I don't smoke, and am not overweight. I do exercise regularly and eat in a relatively healthy manner (some improvement could be made there). The issue is partly mechanical (I'm 47 now, not 20), and partly psychological: (a) the nearly-instant, level 8-9, 'hyper-arousal' of my past is no longer there, and (b) neither my wife nor myself are used to this new mode, yet.

On the up side of this, I can now usually last as long as we like, and through as many positions / activities as we like. My control isn't perfect yet, but it's one heck of a lot better than it was in the past and continues to improve.

On the down side of this, my arousal cycle now more closely follows my wife's. The ramp-up (excitment phase) is more gradual and more controlled, and takes more time. But it gets there -- as long as I can relax and enjoy the ride, and don't feel pressured to "get there NOW, what's wrong with you!!" (pressure either from myself or her).

You wrote:

Given my situation of an LD H, the lack of his "being happy to see me" without manual stimulation is not exactly reassuring even though I know its age more than anything. I keep thinking his brain's not into it since that's where the whole thing starts, right?

Yes, BUT having read Bernie Z's book, you should also understand that while (mental) sexual arousal and having an erection are linked, the two are not exactly synchronized and reflective of each other. One can easily have an erection without being sexually aroused, as every high-school boy can attest to ("Where the hell did THAT come from?!"). One can also be sexually aroused (mentally) and NOt have an erection, especially as one grows older.

There is some irony here. For nearly all of my adult life, I have been working with and catering to the fact that the female arousal cycle works differently from my own. I've never had any trouble taking the time and putting forth the effort necessary to bring my wife to full arousal and enjoyment -- I derive great pleasure from it. I don't expect her to be in a fully ballooned, level 6-7 arousal state (plateau phase) when I first reach between her legs, and I thoroughly enjoy getting her there from wherever she's starting.

And yet, I am expected to be in a fully erect, level 6-7 arousal state before she has even touched me: and if I'm not, she feels like there's either something wrong with me (physically or mentally) or something wrong with her. Jayce reflects this same attitude above.

What you ladies are doing, with your expectations and subsequent disappointment, is making the situation WORSE. If my wife starts to reach down and I'm not raging hard yet, I feel guilty about it, and I feel pressured to 'get it up' NOW. "What's wrong with me? Why isn't it behaving like it used to?" I don't want to disappoint her or make her feel insecure, either about me or her.

And as Bernie Z points out repeatedly: penises don't perform well under pressure.

The more I worry about it and the more she worries about it, the worse things become. And the next time we're about to make love, now I have a dose of performance anxiety in the back of my head, before things have even gotten started. The problem becomes self-perpetuating.

If my wife would instead take the situation in stride, and work with me to build and maintain my arousal (and erection) state, then we'd get past it and have fun. I don't think it's too much to ask that now that we're middle-aged, that she start to put the same kind of effort into arousing and pleasing me that I've put into arousing and pleasing her for YEARS. Neither one of our bodies are what they were when we were 20...so what! We adapt our tactics and techniques and keep sex enjoyable anyway!

If this were a female issue: if my wife was having trouble becoming aroused and reaching orgasm (and she sometimes does, actually), you'd be all over me about keeping the pressure off her to perform and giving her ample time and stimulation to become aroused and reach orgasm on her own terms (not mine).

But for the guys, the male mythos continues -- if you don't have a constant 'rod of steel' then something's wrong, and she shouldn't have to do anything about it. See? The Porn-Stars don't have any problems! (despite the fact that they're using penis pumps, fluffers behind the scenes, and probably pop Viagra like candy).

Alright -- end defensive rant. I feel better

-- B.

[DanceQueen]

Hi Baggy....I just wanted to chime in and lend my full AGREEMENT....

My fiance sort of IS like a porn star in his control of the final release. He tells me he worked hard on this process back when he was pretty young in his bad boy days, and he does have it perfected (and some of what he describes sounds just like some of the PE exercises and other exercises you have talked about).

However, like you are describing, his age has now come along and dictated that he does not have auto-erections any longer, or very rarely anyway.

When we first met, he explained this to me, confidently and assuredly...he has no feelings of being inadequate about this, because he knows it is a physical boundary his aging body is placing upon him...he knows it has nothing to do with his skills or prowess or his feelings for me.

So...he explained to me pretty much what you said here:

"I've never had any trouble taking the time and putting forth the effort necessary to bring my wife to full arousal and enjoyment -- I derive great pleasure from it....(snip)...I don't think it's too much to ask ...(snip)...that she start to put the same kind of effort into arousing and pleasing me that I've put into arousing and pleasing her for YEARS."

Obviously he was not explaining it as if we had a past together, but he was saying the same thing as you are saying...that he knows he is going to ENJOY and LOVE bringing my body up to the highest arousal state through a process of foreplay, caresses, connecting with each other....and that he has no shame in asking for the same effort and enjoyment from me toward his body and rising his arousal. Also, he loves the long arousal process because it forces more intimacy into the picture, and eventually, the intimacy is what actually causes the arousal...versus just physical or visual sensation, or just mental arousal, causing the erection (as it usually is for younger people).

He explained it so well, and then he had to teach me how to do it...because I literally didn't have enough actual experience to know what to do....also I hadn't had any new male lovers since I was very very young (when they all were walking hard-ons) and therefore, I was just simply naive to how everything works.

Luckily though, I didn't have a pre-conceived notion that it was "supposed to always be hard"...I was an eager and happy learner and didn't really stall our progress in this issue by my own feelings of "well if he's not like a rock he must not like me". Somehow, I had already at least read enough general sexual stuff, that I knew that if a man didn't have an erection, it didn't really mean that he didn't want you. In fact I think I had read an article telling women not to pressure a man in this situation, because it will make things worse. I could relate to that completely, due to what you said...if I am pressure to have an O, I am certainly NOT going to be able to have one. At the time I read the article however, I was and had been sexless for a very long time, so I just tucked the info away in my head somewhere.

So again...I just want to offer total agreement that for a man to take longer to "get there" is really no big deal, and can and SHOULD be a lot of fun to "get him there"...it creates closeness and intimacy and gives the woman's body time to heat up, too. Also, we can literally go for hours, because he can rise and lower depending on what we are doing at that moment...but we rarely have any trouble rising him back up again after the lowerings...its all good and fun.

One thing though he can't seem to handle is heat...if he gets too hot and has no way to cool down during sex, he will lose his erection and its very difficult or impossible to get it back. This is why we have a box air conditioner in our bedroom window year round. Hee hee!

Cheers Baggy...

DQ

[Jayce]

Diane, how lucky you are to have a guy who knows what's going on with his body and is able to talk freely to you with no hang-ups! I knew a lot of that stuff a long time ago also, and learned waaaay more about it from my "summer reading program" involving -well- everything one ever wanted to know (& some things one didn't want to know) about male plumbing and psychology. I wish my H knew more or wanted to learn on his own.

The curve ball for me is H's admitting no libido AND not caring and the ED coinciding. Even in his 50's w/BP meds there hadn't been a problem after he quit the beta blocker. Didn't usually begin with erection anyway but now came the inability to regain erection if he lost it. I know that bothered him even tho I'd continue stimulation & he would still come. I didn't say anything. I'm sure he was afraid I would.

I will never know if it bothers him that he always needs manual now or if he knows that's natural. If he's concerned about me finding him soft at first touch he'd never say so. Even tho function is better as blood vessels recover from effect of nicotine, he may have some anxiety, but again, he'd never say so. The pills kinda serve to take any anxiety he might have away. But he'd never tell me. As it is, he doesn't say much about any one experience. It was OK or fine or whaddya think? As I've just discovered, it isn't that he's not one to talk after, its because he's a passive-aggressive.

P-A's pretty much never share intimate feelings. (I wonder if he even has any regarding sex since his loss of libido didn't concern him). If he does have intimate feelings, he can't share them. Its part of a P-A's defensive thinking. According to the psych's it is possible to get them to change some of their behaviors, but they probably will never share intimacy other than the act itself. I'm having a problem with that. I need him to be able to express feelings other than anger or dependency. Being together so many years, I'd think the trust issues a P-A has shouldn't be a factor anymore.

At least he seems to be defrosting some with regard to frequency. It seems to be only an accomodation of my expressed needs. His affect is still sorta flat. I don't perceive much enthusiasm or feeling of mutual fun and closeness. Its not "I want you to want me" anymore, its "I want you to want to want me." Sad state of affairs.

Bagh, sorry you felt the need to be defensive. That was in no way meant as personal attack, but a general caution. Did you miss the part about a sense of humor? Oh, I forgot. Guys don't have one when it comes to performance issues. Sorry. Well, a lot of us women don't have one when it comes to feeling our desirability's down the tubes. I'd like my 30 yr old bod back, too.... Altho, come to think of it, it was no match for a bunch of radio controlled model airplanes at the time. (sardonic tone of voice for that last sentence). Of course, back then I was still attractive to other guys. Dating wasn't a problem. Now? this former ironwoman doesn't have the guts to find out.

Anyway, accept my apologies for the unintended insult. That book about the hardness factor was pretty good tho.
Have good weekend, everybody.
Jsyce