First of all - how are you? I think you said you were having a rough time at home - I hope you're working through it. I for one think you're posts massively jazz up the board. I have just been majorly busy both at work and at home the last week or two, and just haven't had much time to post. Lets us know how things are going.
Secondly, you asked this:
Quote:
...why are men so avoidant to having actual direct conversations in a case like this? (I know "why", but I am just asking to try to get you to think). I mean, she is likely full on prepared to tell you exactly why...as most women are usually holding back words at all times that they'd like to tell you....so why not just ask her?
You've made this point in previous posts. I think the majority of men are happy to talk about sex (possibly not other things). That doesn't in and of itself lead to intimacy or a better sex life. But it definitely helps.
I'm not sure however - generalisation alert! - that the same holds true for women. I think a lot of women - particularly LD women (not that I'm a fan of the label) - do not want to discuss sex very often or indeed at all. In fact my own experience is not simply that women can be reluctant to talk about sex, but that it can decrease desire.
Another poster Stigmata said on a different thread:
Quote:
No she won't discuss sex. Of course not. Too icky for the F. They would rather be lead by a strong male who takes control without verbiage. One who is confident and thinks he is a good catch for her.
Don't you know all human communication is 93% body language and tone and 7% spoken word?
So my question: Is too much "sex talk" a bad thing? Can it actually quell or kill off desire, particularly in women? And is that because its too painful, requires too much analysis and honesty? Does it depend on whether talk about sex was frowned on in childhood etc?
Maybe reply on your own thread DQ - I don't one to hijack this one!
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
Apparently Texas is not a troll or a joke - this guy was on the board back in "the old days"!
I have to say I didn't read the "sleeping on the couch" thing as being anything more than humorous/testing. I suppose it depends on how it was said.
Hi, S&A --
I read this:
Quote:
Then, the third night I "didn't do it right" and I felt like just going to the couch to get away from her... instead she insisted [b](not in a nice way)[/b] that I try again and again until she was happy with my attempt (yet, the answer was still no to sex)
, (emphasis Puppy's)
coupled with 365's characterization of "she didn't want to talk about it," plus his own self-imposed/preemptive trip to go sleep on the couch himself, as . . .
Well, I just don't see any other way you CAN read it, other than it was meanspirited and belittling. Then again, I didn't read the book.
365, what about it? Is this a playful, twinkle-in-the-eye thing with her, or is she serious about banishing you to the couch???
First of all three things 1. sorry it took me so long to respond - as I said, a lot of these intimacy problems are because of our busy lifestyle 2. I am not a troll... 3. sorry this is going to be so long...
So, to make this quick I will cut and paste some of the questions and answer them... then I'll update you on where we are...
===========Diane74========== {Not only is it weird, it is very much unfair in my eyes. What exactly is the point of this, " game ? " What happens at the end of the year, and why was a year the magic number? And why is it that if you do it " wrong " per say do you have to sleep on the couch ??}
I have no idea why she picked 365...maybe because her birthday was coming up and she figured... well, I can try this and if things aren't better by my next birthday... and I did hear about the book where a coupled had sex every night for 365 days - this is definitely NOT what she is trying because there is NO WAY she is going to do that no matter how I ask.
{In my opinion, this won't work because eventually you will become very frustrated and its just an impossible demand. With no communication how on earth can you figure out what is right or wrong in " HER " eyes, and how can it progress?}
She has been giving me feedback on every approach I have made... too wimpy... too friendly... too aggressive... not romantic enough... etc. It can be useful and at the same time crappy. I must say it has taken some pressure off me knowing that I will be initiating each day. Now I don't sit on the bench saying "should I?" - "Is tonight the best night?" "maybe tomorrow is better" - now, it's pretty much EVERY DAY I initiate and I know she is not going to say "quit hounding me..." or "we just had sex" or "can't you see I'm stressed" - ETC...
========Strong&Alive========= {Yes, she is requiring that you initiate. Yes, she is resrving the right to turn you down (she always had this though). But that doesn't mean this isn't a genuine plan, nor that it won't work.
However, I see this as extremely positive. She is dissatisfied with the status quo and is on her own initiative giving both of you an opportunity:
(1) You to get more confident at initiation (and dare I say seduction) and take rejection less personally (a big problem for many men), knowing that you can start over the very next night.
(2) Her to own and contemplate and exercise her own sexuality as a woman - by ensuring that the thought of sex gets turned over every night. It may well remove the "When is he goimng to ask?" pressure.
(3) For both of you to have more sex than you have been having for a long time. It seems like her plan requires both of you to own and deal with your issues, and hopefully start meeting in the middle more often.
I am conscious that you have only given us limited information, but unless you are going to tell us that your wife is prone to manipulation, I would if I were you well anmd truly enter into the spirit.
Drop any resentments about the past, take your masculinity in one hand and a rose in the other, and step up to the plate.
I also suggest that you read some of the posts by Bagheera and DanceQueen, as these will give you some ideas about what your wife may have been feeling and her condition that you initiate in the right way (I suspect she is expecting confidence, seduction and passion).}
I think your answer is exactly correct. Some things she has mentioned in the past that confirm it is... - she wants me to initiate sex, not her - she says I never give her an opportunity to say no... (or yes) I just always assume the answer is no and don't act - she says I need to "man up" and that I "come to her like a little boy asking for a favor"
======Bagheera========
POSITIVE POINTS: all of your positive points were pretty much dead on...
NEGATIVE POINT: and...I agree with all your negative points too...
==========DanceQueen=========== {Wow...the only thing I don't get is why you have to sleep on the couch if she doesn't like the way you initiate?}
yes, let me give everyone some history on the couch... I can sleep anywhere... I can fall asleep in 30 seconds. If I have a cold I snore like a freight train. When this happens, she wakes me up and I go downstairs to sleep on the couch. It is actually very comfortable...and then I can sleep without her waking me or me waking her. I only sleep on the couch when I have a cold. I think she just had to pick "some type of consequence" and that seemed like a good one to her...
{But I do agree with the guys that she is actually WANTING more sex and is having a hard time with the way you are initiating.} I totally agree.
{I also have to wonder, why didn't you ask her DIRECTLY why she came up with this idea, where she heard about it, what HER goals are in doing it...etc. In other words, why are men so avoidant to having actual direct conversations in a case like this? (I know "why", but I am just asking to try to get you to think). I mean, she is likely full on prepared to tell you exactly why...as most women are usually holding back words at all times that they'd like to tell you....so why not just ask her?}
As I mentioned in my first post. The second she said it I immediately turned to her and said "wait, you mean that..." and she cut me off and said "I don't want to DISCUSS it... that's just what I want..." - she didn't cut me off to be rude, she cut me off for two reasons... (1) she is extremely uncomfortable talking about sex (2) I will tear her plan apart into extreme detail and take away the goal she has - which is for me to take it upon myself to initiate and make her want me... if I start asking questions it will turn into a legal document...okay, so let's see every night right? okay, and what if you have homework? check...okay what if the kids are busy? okay got it and what if one of us is sick... so on and so on until I have a 56 page rule book.
==========Burgbud========== {1. If you ever sleep on the couch because she made you after you didn't initiate right, then you deserve to sleep on the couch.} not sure how to answer that...
{2. Next time tell her you'll initiate if she can get you hard. If she doesn't, go to sleep. If she does, look at her like a ravenous wolf looks at a newborn fawn and tell her, "Now I'm going to f*ck you with this." Then do it.} she says she wants me to just take her sometimes, but everytime I try she says "stop being so agressive" - haven't figured that one out yet...
{3. Don't initiate when she tells you to or how she tells you to. Initiate when you want to and how you want to. If "how you want to" looks like this: "Honey, will you please have sex with me tonight?", then you have some self-work to do. Think about how you *really* want to initiate and do that.} I really have some self-work to do
======Puppy Dog Tails======== {SURELY this is a troll, or a joke???} no, not a troll... is HairDog still around - he was a main item on this board about two years ago... I tried to search for some of my old post under my old username (geekspeak) but could not find them.
{365, are you for real?? Even if there is some book written on this, your wife's punitive and belittling application of it is TOTALLY disrespectful, in my opinion. I would urge you to reconsider your approach.} I don't think her goal is to belittle, but it is very stressful at times...
=========Strong&Alive====== {And its only punitive and belittling if he lets himself be punished and belittled. I for one don't think Texas should ever sleep on the couch if rejected, and unless his wife is a disrespectful beeatch (in which case why would he want to have sex with her at all?), I don't think she would seriously expect him to either.} we shall see what happens tonight (more at the end)
And now for the update...
Well, it has been a very interesting experiment so far. I think the things I can say I am learning is that... - a successful relationship takes a lot of work - I am starting to think about how/when I will initiate a lot sooner in the day and planning a little more, so now it's not just a lame last minute session where I mumble... "so, would you wanna... you know... go upstairs..." Now, I'm forced to put a little more effort into it. - the rejections have pretty much matched my effort. If I make a big effort - she is happy - she still says no (she has been going through that time of the month) but, we go to bed happy with each other. If I make a lame effort or do something she dislikes - she drops the hammer... she tells me in 5 words or less what she did not like about it and then I have to try again... so far, I have not slept on the couch. We have been doing this for about 10 days now and I had sex the first night and nothing since (time of month issues). Will be interesting to see how it goes in the next few days. - last night was a mess... I had a very important deadline. My client was upset - project has been taking too long and I risk loosing them if I don't get the project done. So, me and the wife are getting along fine, I'm working on my project, visiting with her, but I just could not get in the mood to initiate. I'm saying to myself "this is stupid, I'm not even in the mood - I have this massive project - she has to get up early tomorrow for work - why should I have to do this big song and dance initiation when we're obviously not going to have sex... I'm too busy for this" - well, I tried some wimpy "let's just get this out of the way" and she sure didn't like that... I let her go to bed while I stayed up working on my project. I really expected her to say "hit the couch" when I slipped in bed later - she didn't, however in the morning she said to me "guess you know you'll be sleeping on the couch tonight..." I just said "yeah, I figured you would say that" - she seemed pretty upbeat about the whole thing like it was just part of a game... she said I needed to "get my confidence back" - she's referring to the fact that the first few days of this challenge I was more manly - and now I'm getting lazy and wimpy again.
So, tonight I may well be sleeping on the couch - but, before I do... I will definitely suggest she spend "some time on the couch" with me...
Hi Tex, I remember you as Geekspeak, so I know you are definitely not a troll. I posted as inherjourney, newjourney, etc...seems I am always on a journey! I wanted to let you know that there was some upheaval on this board awhile back, and Hairdog ( and others) started posting elsewhere. You can e-mail me at JourneysJoy@aol.com if you'd like. I am sure the moderators won't mind this as it can be rather disorienting not seeing your old friend here, esp when you are in turmoil.
As far as your sitch goes, all I can say now is pr-et-ty-in-ter-est-ing. Isn't marriage fun?
In my opinion, she's jerking you around, pure and simple. It's emasculating. I'd be anxious to hear how many of the women out there would find your reaction to her demands attractive.
I'm glad that its " sorta " working for you. I also understood what Bagheera and Strong said, I do. I'm also seeing the whole point where she's doing this to maybe start having more sex, and obviously she wants to work on things, thus getting you to try different ways. It would maybe even be almost kinda fun......... Here is the only part I didn't really get. . . .
I could understand it if you were to try and she said something like > " Sorry, no go....... roll over, better luck next time " Kiss on the cheek kinda thing. What I don't get is why there has to be punishment attached to what sounds like a learning experience. Why the " couch " if your wrong. I know Strong disagreed with me, but this is the ONLY part I don't much care for. I do now understand the point of the 365 days, and love the fact that you are getting feedback. Just don't much get the punishment aspect as you put it. If I'm misunderstanding that part, please tell me.
At the end of the day, its YOU, who has to be OK with it. IF your happy, and see the point to it, or see the good to come out of it, I say go for it, and good luck. If it works let me know. Ill suggest it to my husband. (( minus the couch ))
Good luck with asking her to spend time on the couch with you, I liked that, it was cute..
You know what, I'm not even going through the whole song-and-dance yet. Lemme just ask you this, Tex.
Why would you allow your wife to dictate where you sleep? I don't mean about the snoring, but *punitively*?
I guess it all depends on how you look at it - I could go with the earlier post and look at it from a positive side. Ultimately, my wife wants my ability to initiate to increase, she wants me to initiate in a more confident manner and ultimately for us to have more sex. Which is what I want too. Now, if there were no consequences... how would it work? She has told me before that I should feel free and confident to initiate sex anytime I want - do I? no... I always come up with 20 reasons why I will fail and then do nothing... then, after 2-3 weeks when I'm about to explode... I come up to her and say..."so, how would you like to retreat to the bedroom for some fun..." - yep, that's about all she gets...
Of course, I have also thought of putting a twist on her little game... I can think of a lot of things that would make it just as challenging for HER.
1. She should only be able to turn down a certain number of "good initiations..." let's say 5... when she gets to number 6 she has to put up or shut up.
2. Each time we have sex she needs to try something new. We have been doing the same thing for 20 years. What would happen if SHE had to go outside her comfort zone just like I'm having to?
3. If I have to "practice initiating" then she needs to "practice discussing sex openly"
So, tonight I'm going to go positive. I am going to attack her with the most confident manly method I can and see if she backs down on her "couch" threat. If she does not - I'll probably be so pissed I won't want to be in the same room with her anyway.
She has been giving me feedback on every approach I have made... too wimpy... too friendly... too aggressive... not romantic enough... etc. It can be useful and at the same time crappy.-
she says I need to "man up" and that I "come to her like a little boy asking for a favor"
I think she just had to pick "some type of consequence" and that seemed like a good one to her...
she says she wants me to just take her sometimes, but everytime I try she says "stop being so agressive" - haven't figured that one out yet...
If I make a lame effort or do something she dislikes - she drops the hammer... she tells me in 5 words or less what she did not like about it and then I have to try again...
I really expected her to say "hit the couch" when I slipped in bed later - she didn't, however in the morning she said to me "guess you know you'll be sleeping on the couch tonight..." I just said "yeah, I figured you would say that" - she seemed pretty upbeat about the whole thing like it was just part of a game... she said I needed to "get my confidence back" - she's referring to the fact that the first few days of this challenge I was more manly - and now I'm getting lazy and wimpy again.
It certainly does sound like she wants more sex, and more aggressive or at least assertive sex. Excellent! But she can't let go of her grasp on your choke chain. Very bad. The woman you've described is not treating you like a lover or a wife; she is treating you like the naughty boy and casting herself as the disapproving mom who has to whip your sorry ass into shape. Read the above and tell me you can't see that.
I'm guessing it's the only way she knows, and this is a long-standing pattern in your relationship. A pity, because the more she continues to disrespect and emasculate you like this, the *less* likely it will be that she will be truly sexually attracted and/or satisfied by you.
From a woman's perspective, you do *her* no favors by letting her stage-manage your sexuality like this. If she gets you to act according to her script (another problem, but we'll leave that) of a sexually-potent man ... but in her heart she knows that she intimidated/forced/micromanaged you into it .... do you think she'll *really* be satisfied? I don't. I wouldn't.
Can you see the contradictions between what she says she wants and what she is treating you like?
I think the 365-days-of-initiation *could* be a great idea and lots of fun ... but where is your input??? She is judge, jury, and executioner, and you can't even *discuss* the matter. Does that sound to you like a relationship of adults or (again) a parent/child dynamic? And here you are *justifying* why discussing it really isn't that great of an idea? Come on, man. Is there no middle ground between zero discussion and picking a subject to death? Again, great game .... IF you both have input. As it stands, it just sounds like hoop-jumping. Seriously, you "had to" initiate even when she was on her period? Was there any chance at all of getting some oral action from her, or was just another hoop?
When I asked you why you would allow your wife to "send you to the corner" in the form of sleeping on the couch, you replied:
Originally Posted By: Texas365
I guess it all depends on how you look at it - I could go with the earlier post and look at it from a positive side. Ultimately, my wife wants my ability to initiate to increase, she wants me to initiate in a more confident manner and ultimately for us to have more sex. Which is what I want too. Now, if there were no consequences... how would it work? She has told me before that I should feel free and confident to initiate sex anytime I want - do I? no... I always come up with 20 reasons why I will fail and then do nothing... then, after 2-3 weeks when I'm about to explode... I come up to her and say..."so, how would you like to retreat to the bedroom for some fun..." - yep, that's about all she gets...
Again, it sounds like she does have a legitimate grievance (possibly). Why have you not initiated more freely/confidently in the past? Regardless, I shake my head at the solution. If you think you should be initiating more/better/FITB, what is preventing you? You need a *consequence*???? You're a grown man, aren't you? Children need consequences .... dogs need consquences .... it's called "training". Are you a child or a dog to be trained by her? I'm just baffled by this. Do you really believe it, or are you making excuses for her?
Honestly, seriously ... it would never in a million years occur to me to treat my husband the way your wife is treating you. And even though he is a pussycat, he wouldn't put up with it for two seconds if I did. I wonder why you do.
I love your ideas for leveling the playing field by stating that if you're going to play her game, she's going to play yours ... she will have to accept, experiment, and discuss. THAT could be a giant leap forward toward a better sex life.
Mother-may-I ain't never gonna be.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Hi again Tex, I think you are getting some really good responses here. To me, your W has created a little game where she gets what she wants, in the form of spark, effort, and male assertiveness, while maintaining the power in the relationship. It's a game of fantasy and control, and if you are okay playing it, then fine. But you are posting here because something is bugging you about this whole scenario, and it's good that you are allowing your inner voice to come out. I like the fact that you are wanting to make changes in this game...shows that your spirit is indeed alive and kicking, and maybe that is really what your W wants. My advice to you is to take it day to day, be honest with yourself about how you are feeling, and then find a way to bring more of the inner YOU into the "game."
FWIW, in all my readings about marriage, sex, and relationships, it seems like "healthy" sex has to do with making yourselves vulnerable to one another and exploring. Yet this kind of idea doesn't really spark me! Like your W, I do enjoy "playing" with the theme of control, and somehow I have decided that it's okay, as long as my H is okay with it too. Lately he is showing some really interesting mental flexibility, and we are having fun. The best thing I can offer you is to make it fun for yourself...challenge yourself to grow, not just go along with her agenda, and see what develops. There is no script for this, only trial and error, in a good way. She will grow too.
(( minus the couch )) 