Jayce's thread

[Jayce]

Diane & Bagh.-re: weekend and Passive Aggressive man
Monday night,guess who was in a good mood after work and initiated some fun. On his timetable.

The thing about his having no clear signals: one other characteristic of a P-A is keeping people off balance. So it may look like the beginning of a romantic evening, just like a previous time, but don't count your chickens just yet.

One psychologist describes one of a P-A's traits by saying, don't tell him what you want, that's a sure way not to get it.

Not all the time & not so much as years ago, but it's there sometimes still.
Jayce

[diane74]

Jayce

Since we've been married ( 8 years ) He pretty much has been away for all of it. We've had stints in between where he works here, but not many. As I think I mentioned somewhere, I've come to be use to it, and rely on it so I haven't had to deal with the SSM as much. It was easier to deal with this way, cause he's omly home 8 days at a time. SO, when hes gone, there's nothing to be upset about. ( Out of site, out of mind )

The reason it's 20 months now, is because he has taken a new job. This job is 20 months long, and we don't know what will come after that, but did talk about him working here at home after. The " plan " of sorts is to get enough money to be able to work here on his own. That scares the hell out of me for sure, because we will HAVE TO FACE this if he is ever to be here full time. There is NO WAY, I can deal with this full time, I know that now. When he was transitioning from the old job to this one, there was an opening here at home, and he almost took it. I was panicked. I thought, uh oh.......... There's no way I can live with him full time if this is our marriage. THen it didn't happen anyway. So.......... Oops

We have gone on vacations. We went to Jamaica just the 2 of us for a week 2 years ago. ( NO SEX ) Then this past year we took the kids to Mexico and we had different rooms. I shared with my daughter, and he shared with my son. We told ourselves it was because we didn't want them alone in a room, but really, I think it was so he didn't have to worry about me asking for sex. BOTH trips were great, and were thinking of another next Christmas.


Surprising him, Ive done that. Gone for a weekend. he travels all over so at times he was only a 5 hour drive away. Wed all go, and visit. Always nice, always loved it. Right now hes a plane ride away, and I work so it would be hard. He also prefers to come home, and I get that.

In reality, the " marriage " part is great about 98% of the time. We get along, but were roomies, not husband and wife. So to speak that is. Hes touchy feely, and he hugs, kisses. Just doesnt want it to go farther then that.

As for what I do one weekends, well. Not a lot. lol Kid stuff mainly. Drive them to work, get them from work. Go to their soccer games and practices. Lonely more then anything really. Now that the kids are older, I'm often alone now.

[diane74]

I posted a question in my thread. Hoping you can take a look and tell me what you think. Didn't want to post it here, cause then I may hijack your thread as we did Queens lol. SO I just answered your questions in mine. Sometimes I don't know where to go lol Maybe we should have a joint thread.. lol

tc hope your night went well!

[Jayce]

If anyone's read this thread & has any interest, I'd like to hear from people with Passive-Aggressive spouses about how you've handled one with either LD or HD.

What's a P-A? Google it. There are several good sites with info & short descriptions. Watch out for the ones w/the hysterical people tho. Too much emotion. Stick w/the psych pros.
Thanx

[diane74]

Hi Jayce,

Just wanted to say hi, and hope you are well. I looked it up, and I have to say. One site I thought, WOW, my hubby, then the other I thought nope........ A tad confused, but still wanted to say hang in there, and glad to see u. :P

[Bagheera]

Good morning, Jayce,

One of the things that I've noticed in your posts is the lack of positive remarks about your husband. I don't get a sense of real fondness for him...that "lovin' feeling" doesn't seem to be there (or you just don't show it here to a bunch of strangers). Now granted, this is a place where you can come to vent frustration, so I would expect that to be a big part of your thread, but it's worrisome not to see some affection seeping through too.

Diane's posts regarding her husband's 'selective memory' of past events brought to mind something that John Gottman discusses in his book, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. That is, people involved in a long-term strained relationship seem to forget, or push far away, all of the happy memories of the times when their relationship was good, particularly the courting and newlywed phases. When asked to describe what it felt like when they first met their spouse, when they first fell in love, or their happiest times together, they tend to draw blanks. When asked to describe their spouse's positive traits, they fumble there too: all of their thinking about their spouse and their relationship for years has been so focused on the problems, the conflicts, the short-comings of their mate that it's become literally alien for them to see the positives anymore. I might be wrong about this, but I suspect that you've fallen into this mind-set to some degree.

So if you don't mind, play a game with me here. In Gottman's book, he has a six-week exercise called "Increasing Fondness and Admiration," which involves a daily, short, written exercise that you are then supposed to remind yourself of and ponder during the day. I did this exercise last spring by sending a daily email to my wife containing my response to each daily 'task,' and it evoked a VERY positive response from her --> I don't think she really knew the depth of my love and long-term admiration for her until I starting putting it into writing. The daily, positive affirmation from me did her a great deal of good, as well as reminding me of all the good things that we had going for us, even during those very difficult years. And with each email, she would be prompted to think about how SHE would respond to the same task, and was thus encouraged to dredge up and relive her positive feelings for me. The exercise worked well for us.

What I thought I would do then, is to share the daily 'tasks' with you from this exercise, and encourage you to do them. You can share your answers here, but don't feel pressured to: this is personal stuff, and having looked through them, I wouldn't want to share my emails from last spring here. So share them with us if you like, keep them private to yourself if you like, but consider sending them as notes or emails to your husband -- he would probably be genuinely surprised to read some of those responses. Here is the first exercise: there are 5 per week, and with each is a thought you are to carry through your day, and a short (one paragraph or so) task.


From: The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, by John Gottman & Nan Silver
Increasing Fondness and Admiration (Exercise 1, Week 1)

Thought: I am genuinely fond of my partner.
Task: List one characteristic you find endearing or lovable.


Finally, if you don't wanna play this game, feel free to tell me to go jump in a lake and stop playing amateur counselor! It's just an idea for you to try.

Bagheera

[Jayce]

I can think of lots of cool stuff about my H besides the cute tush. For one thing, he's never told me I couldn't do something that was important to me. Like, the year after we married I went back to school & eventually finished my BA (Hubby #1 was extremely opposed to that). He also had no problem with it when I returned to school & did a Master's which ultimately resulted in a career change. We took the kids camping, to the beach, etc. when they were younger. Bought a fold-down camper. He's been fine w/me having a horse & even would be OK w/me getting a trailer for it! (I don't want to, but its nice that he wouldn't object cuz it'd be expensive) One of our biggest problems w/making memories & spending a lot of time together is that in 30 yrs, he's worked nights 20 of them. He loves to garden, putzes in the yard 6 months of the year. He loves having pets & has never objected to new ones. He is a soft-hearted person, but his lifetime habit is to hide that at all costs as he does with his emotions other than anger. His Italian upbringing? His older brother was the same. Younger one not so much. The upside of that is he's loyal to people he loves. Not that he'd say that.

He has never said much about my daughter's death. I know it affected him deeply, but he just doesn't talk about it. He knows how much more deeply it affected and continues to affect me. He realizes starting something completely new(horse rescue volunteer, riding lessons, buying a horse) has helped me & gives me something to do in the evenings when he's not home. He knows how much I appreciate that he's supportive of that. He is not a bad guy.

"lovin' feelin"???? Why do you think I'm on here? If I didn't care about him, our relationship, quality of life, and all that, I wouldn't even be trying for communication regarding intimacy nor would I bother with trying to keep him healthy. And, regardless of what my rants sound like, I wouldn't care about his lack of libido or having sex w/him if I didn't love him. I also respect his dignity, so when I just need to SCREAM or hit my head on the walls, I never talk about any of this with any of my friends because they know him. And who knows how much they'd share w/their husbands, other friends, etc.

A Passive-Aggressive does not communicate like everyone else, there is always background stuff going on that is never directly stated. Any communication to them, no matter how clear, is always filtered through their characteristic mind-set that seems illogical if you can follow their reasoning, but it is natural to them. It is driven primarily by a need to be close and a fear of abandonment. "I hate you. Don't leave me" They find it difficult to trust because that lets their guard down & they might be rejected. They even do or say offensive things sometimes as if to chase away anyone who might otherwise approach them - because they might get attached & be rejected later. I know it doesn't make sense to you & I, but after I learmed that P-A is an actual personality disorder (they don't say "neurotic" anymore) I began reading, research, etc. I often remind (reassure) him that I've never turned him down if he wanted sex. I've never left him. I've never kicked him out. Never used the word 'divorce' ....and on and on and on. I have a lot of sympathy for his scrambled mind, if I can describe it that way. It must be an awful way to live, never really trusting people, but desperately needing to be close. Looking for trouble where there isn't any. I also learned that he's an "intermittent" P-A. A lot of the time he's fine. Rational, mature, really thinks things through. If anything makes him uneasy, though, he just doesn't respond logically. The fear of abandonment rules.

Altho, as I mentioned a few wks ago, I was so blown away by the libido thing & the ensuing ED, that I flipped out and just reacted, completely forgetting to attempt to strategize an appropriate approach, I have to say that the result hasn't been all that bad in terms of communication. We've gone over things a lot. Repetitiously to the max at times. Every time there's a point to get across in either direction, I keep pounding away at that I'm not not not not not trying to dump him. That I want him to be healthy. That I am not rejecting him. That I need him to say clearly what he means & not pop off with something to get a reaction from me....as in testing to see if I'll tell him to leave or whatever. No, I haven't told him he's P-A & I know what's driving him. I'm not his analyst or his psychologist. I have reminded him we're partners & this is a team thing. At least we seem to have gotten past those times when I express a need, clearly saying "I need for you to..." then when the situation arises him saying "Whaddya want me to do???" and me replying, "I told you what...". As if what I said I needed wasn't what I wanted.... he's quit automatically thinking I meant something else so anything he does will be wrong. YAY!

Been reading Sex on the Brain by Dan Amen, M.D. Parts of it are funny, except that since most of us have no idea that male & female brains are hard-wired differently, couples continue to have the same problems with each other generation after generation.(Did you know that the part of a woman's brain that deals w/her feet is close to the part that deals w/her clitoris? If she wants to go shoe shopping, go along!!!! LOL)
J

[Bagheera]

Greetings Jayce,

I wanted offer you some encouragement and applaud your recent efforts at breaking out of the ongoing 'mother-child' relationship you've had with your husband. I haven't read Michele's Getting Through to the Man You Love, but it sounds perfect for your situation. I honestly think that the more you can give him room to just "be his own man," bad habits and all, and just love him as he is (and tell him so), the more likely he will be to pursue an intimate relationship with you (and actually listen when you do give him advice).

I know from personal experience that back in the days when our marriage was beginning to fail, the more my wife nagged and harped about what I was doing wrong or what I was failing to do for her and the kids, the more I would resist her and withdraw from her. I didn't want to be intimate with her --> I felt like I was under constant attack and completely unacceptable to her. In our case, things got worse when she gave up completely and withdrew from me, and we bagan living separate, parellel lives in the same house, with minimal connection and interaction. We've come a long, long way in our repair work this past year, and have learned a LOT about each other in the process, including what our respective needs / desires are, and how to more effectively communicate our needs more effectively to each other.

You're on the right track. Keep at it!

-- B.

[Jayce]

B, Sorry I haven't responded sooner. Getting into that holiday panic to get everything done.

I suggest you read the "getting through" book even tho its meant for women. There are so many really good points & coaching that I eventually bought a copy and read it again, marking ideas that were especially relevant to me/us. The Sex on the Brain book is very very very interesting in terms of the relationship issues that are common to all of us on this site. There is a ton of enlightening information about why men & women think differently to begin with. It isn't just testosterone, estrogen and personalities, our brains are actually wired differently! The Mars/Venus thing about talking and caves...... not on purpose just to aggravate each other....it is what we are.

I knew quite a bit about the brain from anatomy & physiology classes. The stuff about being wired differently, a lot of that has been discovered/proven since I was in those classes! The man writes in easy to understand and humorous language. I suggested to Cinco that he google an image of Homunculus. I misspelled it with a u instead of an o after the first letter, sorry.

Anyway, as long as we are all searching, learning, researching, I thought I'd mention Dr. Amen's Sex on the Brain book. He has several books about keeping the brain healthy. He incorporates brain scans into his therapy at times and discoveres amazing things that sometimes are the cause of the marital conflict or personality changes.

We get the results of H's CT scan Thursday. As you can imagine, I'm holding my breath, but because I'm a woman, I can still be quite verbal. No sweating it in silence for me.
J

[diane74]

Jayce,

Saw your post in Cincos thread about the 2 Sundays in a row.. woooott! Whatever your doing, seems to be doing to trick. I'm happy for you! Maybe 2009 will bring 2 times a week as you said.

Sorry I haven't been saying a lot lately. Been rough, and we had some pretty bad family news that I am still dealing with. But I am around and think of you and everyone here often.
((take care))