Jayce's thread

[Jayce]

OK, first, Bagheera: I get all that. Remember, I didn't fall off the turnip truck recently LOL. Also been around a lot of guys in my earlier career. Come to think of it, in this one as well. My dad wasn't like that. Mom deferred to him in a lot of ways, but he was -well, as a couple - they were apparently ahead of the times. I remember mom's friends sometimes telling her she "got one of the good ones." I recall exactly one time that I heard him say something that might be considered 'macho' except it wasn't - he truly meant what he said. The threat was implied, but unmistakable. The incident was a one-time thing and very serious, nearly life threatening. He didn't do stuff like that all the time just to be keeping the world at large in line or affirming that he was a man to be reckoned with.

He once said there was no way a man could know what was important to a woman and no way a woman could know what was important to a man. Mom wanted a dining room set, he wanted a tractor. She was upset. They talked and worked it out. I didn't know about it till I was an adult. They also talked and agreed about how I would be raised & they'd never overrule each other. If I tried to play one off againsts the other I caught hell.LOL

As a result of my home life, and probably education, I didni't take people seriously when they'd say or react in ways I thought were - I don't know - just not real. I expected better of people in general. At least in the ones I cared enough for to be close to. Silly me. But then, I've had experience w/people who know how things should go, things but don't do them that way, purposely or not.

The thing about the New Male Sexuality book that'll be hard to get past is the exercises. To some extent he does try to be nice, pleasant, cooperative, etc. etc. but not only is the fence still there, I think he truly thinks that'll fix everything. That as soon as he's nice we're on a good footing, no problem any more. And its not that he's not listening. I know he hears/heard me especially cuz he told me to drop it for awhile. I did ask him if he'd thought about the questions since I've been staying off the subject(me:to give him time, him: hoping I'll forget it?)Got the usual sigh & "I don't know". The silence is scary in a way. He could open up as I've always hoped he would, or he could tell me he's just being nice so I won't get upset and cry and he can stand to be around me even tho he's wanted to leave or I have actually been the person I feel like in terms of SSW.

A couple months ago I read him the list of why people have low libido including anger, its the partner, sexual abuse as a kid... The last time anything was said, maybe 3 weeks ago, he said he wasn't abused as a kid. Kinda blurted it out. Maybe he needs help sorting it out. This book would work for that. I'm just not sure he doesn't already know and won't tell me.

So, onward into the weekend. I'm whacked from getting up at 4:30. Too sunny to waste the aft. napping. Maybe I can walk the dog. Do NOT feel like yard work.
Have fine weekend. Thanks for all your insights and patience.

A similar book, if one exists, would probably put me in a position of having to relearn life. I wasn't exactly traditional all the way back to kid years except for wanting to be married and have kids. Then again, heck no. I was before my time, too. Loved cutting the grass, fixing stuff, having my own tool box (so I could find 'em) hated cleaning house, wanted to teach math. No elementar kids for me, no nursing or secretay stuff. No frail, fainting flower. No batting eyelashes, or candy ass stuff.
I am a handful, I am, but not so much anymore. I seem to have had the stuffing kicked out of me the past few years. The spine of steel inherited from gramma seems to be rusting.

[Bagheera]

OK, first, Bagheera: I get all that. Remember, I didn't fall off the turnip truck recently LOL.

Alright -- I'm sorry if I offended your intellect. I just know many women (who didn't fall of the 'turnip truck' recently either) who gave up long ago ever trying to figure their men out or forge a closer relationship with them: they have simply resolved to co-habitate and live out their parallel lives until the end.

Heck, my own wife had reached that point some years ago. It took ME to rock the boat and get us working to get back on course. Leave it to the HD partner to whack the hornet's nest and stir things up....

Back to Bernie Z's book: I suspect that it might take working with an actual sex therapist to get your H to do the exercises; that is, it would probably take some outside authority figure to give the 'homework' assignments and assess the results. I'm odd in that I did the PE exercises on my own. You *might* be able to get him to do the ED exercises on his own, only because it would save his having to talk to someone (beyond you) about it, but there will be a tendency to give up when failure occurs -- and it will sometimes occur -- during the process. That outside, experienced observer helps a lot to get you past the "I can't" stuff.

I also have some ED insight to share, since I seem to be in a blabby, Friday afternoon mood, but I'll put it in my own thread.

-- B.

[Jayce]

Diane, That's an example of him having no signals. That same kind of evening has resulted in him rising from the couch at 10 pm, saying he's tired and going to bed. Leaving me sitting there like WTF. What's with sitting next to me, arm around.......? (never used to do this, only last couple months) Especially if its Sunday nite. Kinda last chance of the weekend. A couple times when that's ended w/me crying, he's then offered to go in the hot tub, which he rarely does, and wants to fool around right after. I feel like telling him no, but then he'd never ask again. So I go in with him. He does't get why I'm not turned on, and I can't believe he expects I will be since at no time did he indicate that was the idea. Most of the time doing stuff like that feels kinda like throwing me a few crumbs, as in platonic playmate, no sex intended. Keeping me company to make me feel better. Huh? Doesn't work.

I bought one of those metal fire bowls for him a couple years ago. He's hard to get gifts for since he doesn't do many fun things. He liked it. Used it a few times, then it sat on the deck. I know since he works nights we can't be out there all the time. He just has a lot of reasons not to. Its too hot, it might rain, back hurts, too late, tired, and the ever popular unspoken, he'd rather watch TV....than do something nice w/me? TV requires no interaction with anyone, friends, family. Sit there, hear voices, see movement, people talking, as if you've been involved w/people?

So he offered to have a fire probably because I pointed out the thing's lack of use several times in the past few weeks. Said I thought it'd be romantic since he likes fireplaces. Don't know why he's not into the hot tub. He used to go in the one at the racquet club. Its relaxing, feels good. Warm water moving over the skin. He just says it doesn't help his back. He went in it more when it was new & didn't need it to be therapeutic.

Our talks began back in July on a serious level. I'd tell him how I feel (all the SSW stuff before I heard of the book). Every time he'd go another weekend or miss another opportunity for us to have sex, or worse, turn me down again, I'd lose it. His block and parry always were "I'm sorry I don't make you happy" or "what do you want me to do?" The first was spozed to end the conversation, but I'd say, "Then don't" I explained clearly how I felt and what I wanted him to do, can you guess how many times he asked the same question when I couldn't not cry? So, poor, fragile male ego or not, I told him, probably 3 times: "I WANT YOU TO WANT ME, I WANT YOU TO INITIATE SOMETHING WITH ME. I FEEL LIKE A PIECE OF DIRT. I WANT YOU TO NOT MAKE ME BEG. I HATE TO CRY AND YOU KNOW IT!"

What was that I said last week about hitting the mule in the head with a board? Gradually he's been initiating, but he used to be more upbeat about it and mention it earlier in the day or evening. Be in a good mood. Once in awhile he'd even do an afternoon, of course he'd nap right after, but wow. So this weekend, as unromantic as it will be, but what I need, I will ask him way before we use the hot tub, have a fire, watch a movie, exactly what he has in mind. Anticipation's important. I would think for him also. He's seen the lady on TV say foreplay begins in the kitchen at breakfast when you're nice to each other, get a pat on the butt, etc. It shouldn't be that hard for him to get the words out. I'm a sure thing. Not like he risks me turning him down.

We'll see what happens. Going to a clambake on Sun. aft. I'll probably ride tomorrow a.m. He'll have alone time, social time & lots of time left for us.

I have enough tension just waiting one weekend to the next, I can't imagine waiting 4 weeks between any chance for conversation, hugs, and whatever else might be possible. Even w/kids home & lots to do, it'd always be on my mind. You are a tougher chick than I am ;-)

[Jayce]

Not my intellect, my experience. As I say, I've been around many many guys. Just always thought mine would be better, I guess.

Not sure how he'll react to the exercises. Since I told him a counselor won't tell me I'm nuts, he's not mentioned going to one. Guess I'll have to wait & see how the book goes over.
Thanx

[diane74]

Jayce,

How did you weekend go? Mine was the same as always, lol........ Talked to hubby once, and nothing was said. I have decided to go with the " plan " you'd say. Ill read the books, and go from there.

Im not sure if I'd call my self a strong chick, as you out it. lol Just maybe one who really got use to life on my own. In hindsight it sure didn't help the current situation, but maybe I counted on that as well. Ughh......... Feeling pretty frustrated at all that is to come next. Worried that the only thing it will do is cause me to make some pretty hard decisions. I am almost certain he will NOT get on board. But, Ill wait, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Hope your weekend went well!

[Jayce]

Weeelll....not all that well. Sat. a.m. was all chirpy about his back not bothering him so much, getting grass cut, a little other yard work. Not gonna wear himself out, etc,etc,etc. Got a late start to the stable. Rode in early aft. home just B4 5. He'd said we'd go out to eat, no rush to go early, whatever time I got home would be fine. He decided we should just wear jeans, shirt, not get cleaned up first. Fine. Had dinner. He had the usual 2 glasses of wine. (not the 3 martinis he's done in the past, guarantees he'll be napping 30 min after we get home).

He said he dozed a little in aft. didn't really nap. Watched junk on TV. Was chilly out, he didn't mention having a fire. Sat & watched TV, this time he's on the other couch, close but not with. Hadn't touched me all day, kissed me, etc. Seemed less chirpy, went to bed before 10:30. Oh well, there's always Sunday nite, right? I went to bed an hour or so later, was almost done with "The New Male Sexuality" - got to the parts about arousal, etc. Finished reading it in bed. Started crying cuz that's the thing. No arousal. No desire. Never horny. Meanwhile he was having one of his "hot flashes" - a night sweat. He woke up mumbling about being hot, I told him he was damp. He went back to sleep. I went into LR, curled up on the couch & cried a lot. Worked on a puzzle, got sleepy, went back to bed. He woke up, said "where did you go?" I told him & why. He said nothing, back to sleep. Eventually I'm back on the couch & fell asleep around 3:30. One of the cats joined me.

When he got up, he fed the pets, had coffee & started reading the paper. Didn't turn on the TV news, amazingly. Stayed behind that paper a long time. Eventually I got up, washed my face, had tea. Asked him if he wanted to know where I went, why didn't he come look for me. I didn't know he'd woken up & missed me. No answer, of course. Did my nails, puttered around, read a little of the paper, showered, dressed (looked great!Hair came out good, pants w/jeans style jacket w/little row of sequins-15 lb wt .oss helped. Went to clambake. He was civil, sort of pleasant in the car, I didn't say much. He was in one of his moods to blurt out comments planned either to get a rise out of me which would start an argument, or embarrass me, or maybe even make me hate him for being such a boor?? Sometimes he seems like a little kid who keeps provoking his parents to see just how far he can go & they'll still love him.

He didn't drink much, but was driving just a little off on the way home. I know he was trying to get me to criticize his driving or accuse him of being drunk. I didn't say anything. Awhile after we got home, I'd pretty much had enough & lit into him. After his response,I told him I'd stopped talking for almost 4 weeks as he asked & he still hadn't shared his thoughts w/me if he'd even thought about stuff. He never did say whether I was supposed to not talk about sex or about how he feels about sex. I told him we have no intimacy whatsoever. He did the usual blaming me for being bossy as the whole cause of everything. I read him parts of the 1st chapter of the Mars Venus book. Was enlightening for me, but he was deaf to it. It wasn't a pretty fight, but not an unusual one given his tactic of saying something nasty, then saying it wasn't really how he felt. He said my crying was driving him away. (so who's making me cry?)Sat there like his wooden indian self. I went downstairs & finished sewing a pocket into a jacket. Watched Desperate Housewives. I don't think he turned the TV on upstairs, but he didn't come down to brush his teeth B4 going to bed! Chicken!! When I got in bed, he asked if I wanted him to hug.(message:Tell me you still wnat me, you won't leave?) I told him it was his option since he's the one who says he has no use for me, hates me, doesn't hate me, we don't love each other, so he put his arm around me as usual, but after a minute's thought moved it down to my waist. Chicken.

What hadn't occurred to me until today (we had a more frank, less fighting talk this morning, he's 10 pages into the man book & wants to know how that's helped, duuuuhhh)Because I've been so focused on the lack of desire, which became the ED problem in June & set this whole colossal goat [censored] into motion is that he's passive aggressive. Really. Its considered either a personality disorder or borderline personality disorder. It colors almost everything he does unless he's in a good mood. It's where the I hate you, no I don't hate you comes from as well as the "I'm leaving" along with the obvious worry when I am not around and/or quit talking. Characteristic of this disorder is wanting to be close, sabotaging it cuz of fear of abandonment if one's guard is let down, and fear of being alone.

In the event he ever does decide to go for counseling it will have to be to someone who knows how to deal with it -really well-meanwhile, I need to get back into "handling" him when he is doing his usual blocking, sulking, accusing behaviors. Of course (you know me by now)I hit Borders for a couple books. "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man". I haven't read up on it for several years, hope there's new info. He isn't as bad as he used to be, probably cuz he's mellowed a bit as he's aged and a lot of that stuff doesn't work on me after long practice on my part. This problem with its embarrassment, feeling like he's lost some manliness, being something that he can't ignore, deny, wait till it blows over has magnified his old tactics. He's probably close to panic stricken in some ways. The main thing about P-A is its driven by internal anger. What at? Long story & iffy at that.

I know he can't possibly be pleased with himself and must be miserable with the pulling me close, then pushing me away thing since he doesn't really want to be alone, but I'm also not pleased with having to work on "handling" him again when I just want to SCREAM at him for hurting me when he has the choice not to. Without screaming, this a.m. I pointed out that soon as I quit talking about it, his efforts to iniitiate and be closer, etc. started fading. So here we are. He'll be home in half an hour. I'm whacked, gonna take a hot bath. Thought about having a fire by myself or going in the hot tub a l o n e..but, naaah. Takin' a book in the tub w/me and possibly a glass of Riesling. I could mess w/his head & lock the bathroom door, but no point in that. If he wants to come in & sit & chat, fine. If not, fine. At least he started the book, even if he was sarcastic about what would that help, etc. He's not big into a "process", too much like something that might change him. I know he'll finish it if I'm willing to put up w/his getting crabby & sarcastic & worse. Like that little kid again. "Yeah, I'll do it, but you'll pay for it".

For the others who've been reading & coaching (thanks so very much, I'd go nuts without you to vent to) I'm sorry I forgot about the passive aggressive thing. The libido thing kinda drove it right out of my mind, altho I'm always dealing with it at some level depending on his mood.

Hoping we all have a good week.
Jayce

[diane74]

WOOZERS!

I will say that you 2 sound like my husband and myself 5 years ago. A lot going with nothing actually working or changing. So, maybe it is time to try something different. Have you thought at all about Bagheera's 4 steps? Maybe a change would help??

I do totally understand how you feel though, as we are in very much the same boat. That is why I have decided to try them. Can't hurt at this point because I've done everything else under the sun.

I'm still having a VERY hard time biting my tongue, and I'm sure if he was here, I think Id be biting his head off, as I'm still frustrated at why this is so damn hard for him. I'm his wife, right? I'm not the wicked witch, in my opinion he should be able to talk to me........... arghh...... There I go again. lol Hard to follow my own advice sometimes.

Coming here keeps me sane, that's for sure. I'll be back later, just wanted to quickly post.

Hope last night went better for you.

[Bagheera]

Jayce,

You revealed an important key right here:

He did the usual blaming me for being bossy as the whole cause of everything.

Whether or not you feel like this is a valid statement: this is true statement regarding how he really feels about you. And you need to take it at face value. If he feels bossed around, critiqued, nagged, and lectured to, he is NOT going to feel accepted, appreciated and loved as a man. And if he doesn't feel loved, then he will not want to be intimate with you -- either emotionally or physically.

I do understand how you feel, and where you are coming from -- I've been there. You're trapped in a vicious cycle of becoming angry, getting upset, and trying to push and shove and FORCE your spouse to be more emotionally/physically intimate with you. And the harder you push, the more stubborn about NOT changing they will beoome. The more you pull on the mule's reins, the harder he will sit down in the mud.

SO STOP PULLING.

I did it the wrong way for over 20 years, and for over 20 years, the mule didn't budge. I realize that it sounds completely irrational, but: the only way to get your spouse to change is to STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THEM.

I've said this before, but the only person you can change in your marriage is YOURSELF. So start there. Start looking for ways to change the way in which you interract with your husband. Start looking for ways to change the way that he feels about you -- for the positive.

It works.

When I first started doing this with my wife (Phase 2 of my own recovery), she was VERY skeptical, and very mistrusting of my intentions. I had a lot of ground to repair with her, and it took MONTHS of work to rebuild our friendship and improve the level of emotional intimacy in our relationship. And even though sex was NOT the primary concern of that recovery phase, once this ball started rolling, there was even a small, but noticeable, improvement in our secual relationship -- a flicker. It was a start.

You got what you asked for from him --> he's been telling you how he feels about you. You just haven't liked the answer, and think he's wrong. He could very well be wrong, but trying to prove that to him, won't improve either your marriage or your sex life. Accept his truth, as a VALID expression of how he currently sees you, and then work to change yourself and change his mind.

-- B.

[Jayce]

You are right. He gripes about bossy often, but only if it involves something that threatens his ...what?...emotional status quo. The way he usually interacts. Which is, to put it mildly, counterproductive in any situation involving dependence or intimacy, and always involves underlying anger. Just anger. Not at anyone in particular or me, that's just how he expresses it. Its where the "I hate you, no I don't hate" you stuff comes from. Paradoxically, he often askes me what I think he should do.

I haven't done any research on passive-aggressive personality disorder in years. I've pretty much figured out ways to deal with it, sometimes almost reflexively. This whole colossal goat f*** however, has sent me off the deep end & I've not even thought about it. As if I've made the effort to do so on all the regular stuff, but this is the, well, the mule/board thing. Especially the part where he was ready to chuck the whole sex life thing without telling me, hiding, ignoring the whole thing. This has been like the cartoons where the coyote puts on the brakes with lots of screeching and dust clouds just before the edge of the cliff.

P-A's fear being close or dependent but they need to be. Often when they get close to someone they'll immediately wreck it to avoid abandonment. Withholding and being obstructive are other behaviors. I know he sometimes withholds sex as a weapon of sorts & will often initiate later, on his timetable, control. He rarely tells me what he wants cuz then I could withhold it to hurt him. Its how his mind works. He's had years to learn I don't think that way & have never done that, rather I'll come thru on the B-day gifts, etc. Fear of abandonment is why he got worried about it when I stopped talking even tho he told me to. I've never left him either. This summary is the tip of the iceberg. There are P-A's who are not as bad as he is and some who are way worse.

Anyway, even w/out me remembering to strategize before I flipped out months ago, we've come a long way. I mentioned that compared to me he had a pretty chaotic childhood. Of course I've started reading to catch up.....the anger comes, among other things, from some perceived abandonment in childhood, and possibly conflict among parents, siblings. He doesn't share memories much, but he did tell me his parents split when he was 4. It happened during a big fight on Thanksgiving. She wouldn't let his dad see him after that. He didn't really know his dad till he was 15 & a much older bro. who was able to defy their mom by that time, took him to visit often. (this bro went into military when H was 6, another abandonment) His dad died when H was about 23, I think.

I'd love for him to get therapy for this, but characteristic of a P-A he'd probably either not go or waste a lot of time obstructing what the therapist tried to do. Its gotta be a rotten way to live your life, but its his decision. I don't care as long as it doesn't wreck mine.

Its been a very long time since he's been able to run me up and down the trees like this. I'm disgusted with myself for not realizing it sooner. A good deal of the time & in most instances he's OK and is a rational adult. Other times, he's still the little kid pushing to see how far he can go before...what? daddy leaves? Its telling that he & both brothers moved away from their home town to live. His relatives used to joke(?)make comments about them wanting to get away from their mother. And those were the relatives on her side of the family.

Those same relatives got tired of doing her running and putting up w/demands, so she moved to an assisted living near our home when he was 48 or 49. I thought he'd go nuts. He was still afraid of her tirades, so he'd end up doing what she wanted. (Still fear of rejection?) Maybe I've answered ques. #2-his emotional need is not to be alone or abandoned. Would be nice if he could realize he's not & he hasn't .
J

[Jayce]

Diane: WOOZERS-I like that word! Your ques about what else to do... I read back every so often, haven't kept a journal of all this & probably should have, but all these posts help me to realize what I'm thinking somethimes....do you ever go back & read all yours? Couple ideas..

Its just me, but if my H was gone so long & avoiding talking, I'd probably mail him one of the books. Maybe Mars/Venus for starters. He might read it being alone w/less embarrassment. Let him know you're still on track. Also, its just me, but it'd be a given that I get one call a day and maybe some emails. How the heck else to stay connected? H went on contract job 11 yrs ago to Atlanta. Boy, did we run up phone bills. Didn't have cells & he had no laptop. He came home one weekend in the 2 months. He missed me! (I posted on Bagheera about the passive-aggressive's conflicts).

About that fishing trip one weekend. What kind of work does he do? How far away is it? Does he drive or fly, stay in one place or move around? Do you know any of the people he works with? Is there a secretary, dispatcher, boss? How many of the 20 months are done? The Atlanta job was supposed to be 3 mo, not 2 & I was going to go down for a weekend between 2nd & 3rd months. With all you've gone thru (& my paranoia?? my assertiveness??) I might have gone to spend a weekend with him by now. And just maybe not let him know I was coming. Get to see him in his natural habitat so to speak. Invade his cave. Not to pressure for sex, just to send lots of messsages. I miss you, I mean business, I need to share your experiences, your life. I'm HERE, I'm not some imaginary woman 4 weeks out of five. I wonder what you do on weekends when you're by yourself. All of that.

For a guy who doesn't want intimacy, but presumably a family or the illusion of one, he's got it made. He gets to hide out but has a base to return to for short periods. Just enough to keep the illusion of a marriage. Have you guys ever gone on a vacation together? With or w/out kids? Have you done so since the 20 month gig began? By now you two barely know each other in a way.

Also, when you do get the rare & short call, why not regale him with cheery, happy stories about the cool stuff you've done lately and the new people you've met, who you had dinner with, what movies you saw w/kids or pals. Take away any notion he has of you "on ice" waiting for his return.

You get where I'm going.... check up on him, which I would feel to be justified given his neglect of you, and plant the seed that you're having a pretty good time & may not really need him around........ I know this sounds devious and not really in the spirit of mending, healing, doing 180's, working things out, etc. but a guy who avoids both intimate conversation and sex w/his wife & is gone for long periods of time, LD or not, is kinda suspect. And why facilitate his avoidance? So I check up & find he's a saint, so I feel a little guilty for not trusting him, but so what. He's not forthcoming & I need some peace of mind. Its how my mind works & yes, I'd do it. I'm one of those "Better to know for sure" people. I sent H flowers at work once for fun. He was embarrassed, but the women in the office thought it was sweet. It reminded them he had a loving wife, too! Me, subtle? Sure, sometimes LOL.

Meanwhile, don't quit your day job & start saving some $$ just in case. No LOL on that one. There are worse things than being a 2-time loser. No shame in admitting a mistake. Better than living with a mistake for years & years.