I guess it's over

[Esky94]

Hi Trixi,

Quick hello and I'm going to take the chance of typing stream of consciousness because I don't have time to edit, but I do want to say hello.

13-14 years ago, I was in a R where I was a yo-yo. The BF would want me, not want me; primarily influenced by his church. That BF married someone (that the church peers 'approved of') and shortly after that (within a few months) he came back to me and said "I am getting the marriage annulled. I made a terrible mistake. I want to marry you."

Grrr. I can't stand how people can't seem to make decisions for themselves and rely on "authoritative bodies" that influence them not for their own happiness. I don't think he was ready at the time to stand up for what he wanted.

I was thinking about your earlier post about a chat with your H and God. With my W, I once brought up God and forgiveness and I couldn't believe the anger she threw at me. I was indignant afterwards. I thought how could she, as a Christian, not want to forgive that for the sake of the kids, etc.

I then remembered she once commented that the Bible is actually really bad at helping people work through deep emotional pain. It does a bit, but there are many better approaches. So I don't bring that angle up any more, even though I think it, but in the end, her timing is going to be her timing.

You really should get a session or two with a DB coach. I've had two already and having my next one tomorrow.

The approach my coach takes with my sitch is, as per the book, DR,

a) stop the negative emotion - stop any "Pushing", ie. chat about R, or reasons why this all happened, or the kids, or being close. People don't decide to come back if every interaction is hurtful or painful. It just doesn't make sense.

b) Figure out the 180s - stop chasing down cheeseless tunnels and figure out the things that bothered my W and stop doing them. The thing she said was "People don't leave people because they hate them. People leave them because they don't like the role they've been placed into"

c)Get a life - I'm sure people have said this, but spending too much time on this board is dangerous for me. I could easily get sucked into a pity party or full of rage. I know being full of pity or angry all the time is not attractive to women and in general. And I know as a guy, it's not sexy if I saw that in someone else. So rediscover what you love and do it and let that light fill you up and shine out.

So where am I going with this? Bringing up God, in hindsight, falls into category a). I know you care about H. But in a way, trying to fix him with God sends him another message "I don't accept you" and no one wants to be with someone if they don't feel accepted. The next thing I'm thinking of will sound contradictory, but the wise thing I heard from someone about bringing God in is that I have no idea what God is doing in other people's lives. You don't know what God is doing in H's life. And it's none of your business. So don't push him and God. Maybe think about God/Light/The Infinite/The Great Spirit in your own life, whatever you believe.

Geez I'm rambling. Your sitch is not my sitch. I kinda understand what your H is experiencing, but I knew I had a lack and I was smart enough to work on myself instead of grasping to fill some hole I couldn't understand.

If you want to turn a dreaded chat on divorce into something that yields some information, use the "bucketing" technique. If he wants to do something like divorce, just calmly ask "And what's the purpose of that?". Gently work your way back in time and examine the motivations to see if you can loosen a nugget of dissatisfaction or pain that he needs to work on. It could be parents, school, bad dating experience. He may get mad, but then you say, "And I would invite you too find some way of understanding and resolving this". The key word is invite because it's non-pushing.

And then don't put any expectations on him whether he should or shouldn't. You just tell him nothing and then go off and work on GAL.

Okay, that's my two cents. YMMV.

Esky

[Trixi]

Heya-
Yeah, I think I am going to go and have a consult with an attorney just to make sure I know my rights. I believe we can do this without fighting, but I don't want to be stupid either.

how about you do shock the crap out of him by putting yourself in the driver's seat. He can run along beside the car

ROFL that was a good one!

Re feelings for the xbf...that's sort of tricky. Early on in our M, H and I had power struggles. He was super moody and we both seemed to have a problem finding our 'groove' in living together. Took a little over a year to figure things out. During that time, I definitely wondered if I had made a mistake in sending the xbf away. And thru out the years, I would sometimes wonder. But, now it's been so long; and I haven't seen him for 13 years; I just don't know. Maybe buried somewhere. Several years ago, I think I would have been able to access feelings. I have been stuffing my feelings for so long regarding everything-- I don't know, now. Seems like the only feelings I really know right now are hurt, longing, sadness.

[Trixi]

Esky-
I don't know how I missed your post! Must have been writing my post when you posted your post and then I missed it. Anyway, I appreciate you stopping by.

I don't think he was ready at the time to stand up for what he wanted.

Oddly, that is almost word for word what he said to me last night.

If you want to turn a dreaded chat on divorce into something that yields some information, use the "bucketing" technique. If he wants to do something like divorce, just calmly ask "And what's the purpose of that?".

I know exactly what the purpose of him wanting to "not be married anymore" is: he doesn't want to be committed. He wants to do what he wants, when he wants. He doesn't want me to count on him. He "already is making a commitment to his son, a commitment to his job" he has to stay in the house for another year because of a 3% prepay penalty-so he sees that as another 'commitment'.

I probably could have garnered useful info in the past when he wasn't so closed off, but at this point, he has made himself clear. He doesn't want to be married.

I am definitely GAL. So much has happened this year, though. Seems irrepairable.

<snip>but I knew I had a lack and I was smart enough to work on myself instead of grasping to fill some hole I couldn't understand.

And that makes you a lucky man. My H has always searched outside of himself to fill the void. A lot of his childhood memories with his mom involve her taking him shopping for "'. So he definitely had the idea that "stuff" would do it. I think he is outgrowing that, but still thinks that it's something outside of him that will fill it-be it music, younger women (which now he says 'isn't it'), drinking, partying, whatever.

And then don't put any expectations on him whether he should or shouldn't. You just tell him nothing and then go off and work on GAL.

No worries on telling him anything; we are in radio silence.
Ugh. I just realized I get to cancel the Spanish lessons. *sigh*

I have a DB phone session with Jody tomorrow. Probably not going to be of much value given the sitch.
But if I get any nuggets to share, I will be sure to post them.

[Esky94]

I know exactly what the purpose of him wanting to "not be married anymore" is: he doesn't want to be committed. He wants to do what he wants, when he wants.

I was listening to some material by Marshall Rosenberg on Non-violent Communication today and he was interviewing a teacher who hated giving grades, but had to because it was school district policy. She thought it wasn't really accurate and caused alot of problems with parents and kids. Instead of dwelling on why she did NOT want to do something, Marshall asked her why she DID do it (ie. give the grades). He asked her to fill in the blank.

I give grades because I want to ____________ (let her fill in the blank)

Her (honest) answer was "Because I want to keep my job!".

So instead of dwelling on what he doesn't want (marriage), ask the purpose of what he does want (singleness) and see where the string leads. It may be independence, serenity, a sense of masculinity, proving himself somehow. And then instead of asking "purpose" ask

"where in your past did you feel you didn't get this?". It might be in the marriage. It might be before. Who knows.

I'm NOT saying this is going to help and it might be a bit scary to think about. Personally, I don't think it's my job as a H to be a therapist for my W. It kills the sex drive. But you might find stuff that helps you move on emotionally by having clarity. He might get something nudged inside to get him to think about what he really, really wants. You both might need to discover it while apart, but hey, it's still a Win-Win of sorts. You're kinda listening, accepting, almost loving, but not needing to condone it and you just GAL and get on with your life.

You do need to have a strong emotional boundary up if you're going to do this. I wouldn't do it for more than a few minutes. Things might get really heavy in the conversation and so to close the talk off whenever...I would just straighten my lips, raise my eyebrows and go "hmmmm".

<snip>but I knew I had a lack and I was smart enough to work on myself instead of grasping to fill some hole I couldn't understand.

And that makes you a lucky man.

Yeah...the more I talk to people. The more I realize I am.

My H has always searched outside of himself to fill the void. A lot of his childhood memories with his mom involve her taking him shopping for "'. So he definitely had the idea that "stuff" would do it. I think he is outgrowing that, but still thinks that it's something outside of him that will fill it-be it music, younger women (which now he says 'isn't it'), drinking, partying, whatever.

I'll betcha he didn't get to do this when he was younger.

I have a DB phone session with Jody tomorrow. Probably not going to be of much value given the sitch.

Yep. I have Jody too. She's good value.


My two cents. YMMV.

[Trixi]

I'll betcha he didn't get to do this when he was younger.

Actually, quite the opposite. He was always super cute and had his choice of the ladies. Round about 7th-8th grade started getting involved w/drugs and alchohol. His parents ended up sending him to a school for troubled teens. He and his mom and step-dad were in constant battles while he was being rebellious. And, the final straw was when he wanted to borrow his mom's car because his battery was dead. They said no and so he took the battery out of his mom's car and put it in his. It was at that point he got kicked out. (Which he thinks was a good thing because he would have kept up with the bad behavior.)
He moved out and roomed with a bunch of guys (party party party). At the age of twenty two, he met a 17 yo at a concert. They dated; she got pregnant; once she had the baby, he FINALLY got his act in gear and buckled down and went to school while working. So, he didn't really start to "settle down" until he was like 24-25. And even then, he still was no saint.

I guess I am just not "the one" for him. He has had a quasi-single life for YEARS. He admits that he shouldn't have been that way- BUT, he also adds on "YOU should have MADE it so I didn't WANT to go out." OR, "You shouldn't have let me." Sigh.

Now I am not sure why I am going to talk to Jody. I mean, for God's sake, I have been bending over backwards- giving him whatever his fickle emotions wanted and it STILL wasn't enough.

At what point do I just look at the sitch and say he isn't good enough for ME? He doesn't want me to stand in the gap; he doesn't want to be married. Why do I still love him???!!

[Dom R]

Dommmmm!!!! Where have you been?!
How are YOU doing? What's the news? You say that I have gone above and beyond-- so have you!

Hiya Trix :-/

I was trying to stay away from the boards. Going with the "keep doing what works, stop what doesnt", it seemed like the more I posted, the worse things got, both with my situation, and how I felt about it. So, I stopped.

Things have been Very Bad for me. To the point where I was actually starting to evaluate the very painful decision of whether i needed to finalize our divorce myself, rather than waiting in limbo until she did it.
But, she surprised me with a positive action response for something I asked her for. So you might say I'm standing down to "DEFCON 3", rather than "DEFCON 1", now.
Still not doing well though. No positive end in sight.

------

Meanwhile, I saw your latest development, so decided I should poke my head in.
Now back to you. You are the reason I came back to read today

I have some advice for you.

You keep saying (indirectly) what you should be doing, but then not doing it. I think you are waiting for someone else to whap you over the head with it, because you dont want to look at it until someone says so.

That's what I'm here for

You have written multiple times in the last few days, that your husband "complained" that you let him get away with it.
He Is Right.

You have also written that, for pretty much his entire life, he has been irresponsible. Doesnt look like that's going to change, to me. EVER.

Soooo... my guess is, if you want to be married to him, you are going to have to be resolved to be one of those women who is in charge of the family. You are going to have to be the law in your household.

If you are not willing to do this, and you "need" a man that is going to be the moral center, and drive, and leader in your family... then you "need" to divorce your current husband and find someone else. He will probably never be that man.

He's toying with you. He wants you, but wont admit it (because that would give you acknowleged power over him), and wont step up to be responsible about what he wants.

So, time for you to lay down the law for him. Dont go quietly, drift-away dark. Go EXPLICITLY in-his-face dark.

You MUST tell him WHY you are cutting him off, and what it would take to change things. NOW, while he still is drawn to you

If you wait until he actively is dating again... which will be soon... it will be too late for you, in my opinion. Going silently dark, may make him simply adjust to the idea of, "that avenue is no longer open; time to follow other ones".
Whereas, if you explicitly tell him what is needed to change, he then has something to consider.

Yes, I know it seems like you have "told him already".
You need to tell him again. Probably in written form. He's a man. Short attention span, and forgetful


Now is the time for you to set rules for him, under which he may have the privilege of your company.
If he does not wish to respect you, and your feelings, then he does not deserve to be with you.

He is waiting for you to show him that you deserve respect. Dont disappoint him again. Stand up for yourself now.

[Dom R]

PS:

Now I am not sure why I am going to talk to Jody. I mean, for God's sake, I have been bending over backwards- giving him whatever his fickle emotions wanted and it STILL wasn't enough.

Children dont need to be handed "whatever they want/ask for". Children need rules, and discipline. Any good child educator/counsellor/successful parent can tell you that

[Changed Woman]

Dom...you are a wise man!

Trix...I think Dom is onto something here. I truly think H would crap his pants if you took the ball away and started running with it...I have a feeling he'll start chasing you!

[Trixi]

Okay-- I hear--
But I don't know exactly WHAT to do.

Jody told me to go dark. Leave him be; don't contact him. She thinks that he will be in contact with me and that I should be upbeat and get the heck off the phone. (So busy with GAL and all that.) She suggested that since he is quite obviously attracted to me, that he will be back in touch.

Yes, I know it seems like you have "told him already".
You need to tell him again. Probably in written form. He's a man. Short attention span, and forgetful


Now is the time for you to set rules for him, under which he may have the privilege of your company.
If he does not wish to respect you, and your feelings, then he does not deserve to be with you.

He is waiting for you to show him that you deserve respect. Dont disappoint him again. Stand up for yourself now.

Aren't we WAY past this point? I mean, he made it crystal clear- he doesn't want to be married. (Never said the D word, though.)
He doesn't want me to "count on him". So, really, if I go to him and 'demand respect or else' it seems a little bit like shutting the barn door after the horse got out.

How do I take the ball and start running with it???

THANKS!!!!
_________________________

[NikB]

Hey Trixi... I think Dom hit it on the head. You KNOW what to do, you just aren't doing it. I'm sure that we've all posted it to you before, too.

Go dark
Get a Life of your own
Learn to be happy without him
Let him go

Why are you canceling Spanish classes? Any reason you can't continue them on your own? You must be making some pretty good progress by now!

Basically... assume, and act as if, you two are D'd. If you can't remain "just friends" with him - show him that. Act like you're no longer married to him. Treat him as you would if a D were final.

Envision your life without H (or any other man for now) in it. What does it look like? Where do you live, what things do you do?? You've done some of that.. decorating your house as you like it, having it set up the way you like it (i.e. the prairie dogs in the living area.. things YOU want).

Stop thinking of H when you're making decisions for yourself. It is not easy. That's actually why I suggested that road trip. It's the first thing I'd done in a LONG time where the decisions I made had nothing to do with H. Sure they're small... but you're deciding where to go, what to eat for dinner, what time you want to go to bed, what you're doing the next day - all without considering your H at all. Of course you may think of him some - I had a lot of "oh man H would love this too!" moments, but my DECISIONS weren't about him, reliant on him, dependent on his tastes or approval or whatever.

It's far easier to do this on vacation than at home - but if you "learn" it away from home, I think it helps you understand how it feels, and then it's easier to do in your day to day life.

I hesitate to post this since it actually HAPPENED to someone here recently, but I hope it doesn't offend - it's an example that helped me. In your mind, think of how you would "be" and act if he suddenly died. What would you do to grieve and move on? As you grieved, what would you do to make your life rich and fulfilling? Do those things.

How to run with the ball? Live your life FOR YOU, as if he's no longer part of it.