Jayce's thread

[Bagheera]

Greetings Jayce.

You missed my point entirely. I didn't ask you to justify all of your complaints about your husband: I was already sure that you could do that. What I was asking you to do was to set them aside and practice accepting him JUST THE WAY HE IS.

Read this article by Michele, called Why Should I Be the One To Change?.

Then take me up on this challenge:

For one week, bite your tongue and stifle any negative comment or complaint you are about to make to your husband. Swallow it. If you can't say someting nice, don't say anything at all. Instead, look for positive comments, compliments, or expressions of appreciation that you can offer to him.

And while you are at it, pick up your old copy of The Sex-Starved Marriage and read it again....slowly. When you get to Part III (for the HD partner), start thinking about what things YOU can do, goals you can set, what 180's you can potentially make (like the one I'm challenging you to try above).

I'm asking a lot, I know. But I also know that no matter how righteous and justified you may be in your complaints about your husband, that he will NEVER CHANGE using your current approach to him.

So in good Divorce Busting fashion, I'm asking you to stop repeating behavior that doesn't work, and try something new.

Good luck!

-- B.

[Jayce]

I HAVE been doing this since Labor Day Weekend, even in light of his scathing tantrum that Fri. about the sleep test. Which he did do, just HAD to try to scare me into backing off. So he's doing the same thing he's always done, but its SO not working this time. (It doesn't always anyway depending on what the issue is)

So far,the effects are noticeable only to the extent that he's less crabby and more friendly right up to the big fence around what he'll talk about or do (na na na na naaaa and you can't make me na na na na naaaaaaaaa) Even then I see some grudging about it at times. Even tho I've been upset since the weekend it seems it may have turned on the lightbulb. My being asleep when he got home & out of the house early means we've had no conversation at all for a couple days. Left no notes, no calls, living my life taking care of me. I culd repeat that tonite & tom'w, but not asleep sooon enough, obviously.

This short absence of contact worries him. (but not from fear of no more sex) It scares him when I stop talking, even tho he told me to. I don't believe he wants to live alone. He emailed me from work that he doesn't like living this way and we need to get to a happy "medium". "All our conversatons are one-sided." YA THINK?????? I'll bet then next time we have time to talk he's going to actually say something. And I'm not starting the conversation. We'll see where it goes, but not tonite. I'm whacked from little sleep last nite & riding early today plus I have golf tomorrow.

I don't have SSM anymore, was a libe book. Still have the How to Get Through book. Every one of the books I've read has a short, crushingly depressing chapter in the back about how sometimes nothing works and what to do then. Worst part of the books. He knows how this is killing me and exactly why. I'm hoping that eventually he'll relax and be left fearful of trying a new level of intimacy. Even if its only out of compassion for me. And if he tries it, I'm hoping he enjoys it. He doesn't deserve a life that lacks intimacy either. This "colossal goat f*** is for his benefit as well.

[Bagheera]

Thank you for hanging in there with me, Jayce. I DO understand that you are angry, hurt, resentful, and bitter after all of the years of martical dissatisfaction. I've lived through that myself. However, I also know that there was NO improvement in marriage - none whatsoever -- until I was able to set that anger and resentment aside and love my wife for who she was at the time, and show it to her in a language that she understood, in a way that she really felt it (NOT in the very physical way that I feel it).

Your statements such as this:

Man? or 4 year old?

and

na na na na naaaa and you can't make me na na na na naaaaaaaaa

concern me in particular, because they show a level of Contempt that is particularly dangerous to a marriage. In many respects, it sounds to me like your husband has gone from being your Knight in Shining Armor to being not much better than s Squire Boy. And I would bet money that your husband knows this -- he feels it in you, even if you haven't said it to him directly.

Since you like to study and read, let me share this:

In John Gottman and Nan Silver's book, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. they outline the two key ingredients to a successful marriage:

(1) actively maintain a close friendship, and
(2) learn how to handle conflict in a gentle, non-destructive fashion.

With regard to the second item above in particular, the Gottman's have observed four 'marriage killers' that frequently come riding in when a couple is in the midst of a disagreement with each other. They call these the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They are:

(1) Criticism,
(2) Defensiveness,
(3) Contempt, and
(4) Stonewalling.

Criticism and Defensiveness are the two most common horsemen, and come together as a pair. The common fight pattern is one of harsh start-up, defense & counter-criticism, more extreme criticism, and on and on. Both partners feel under attack, neither partner feels understood or heard, and nothing gets resolved. Sound familiar? It takes a real effort to stop this cycle, refrain from defending yourself, stifle a counter-criticism, and attempt a repair to the conversation: but one of you must be 'big enough' to do it if the discussion is to be salvaged. Criticism and Defensiveness are like a disease to your marriage, slowly eroding your friendship and respect for each other and making it difficult, if not impossible, to stay close and intimate. If these horsemen already have a foothold in your relationship, work hard to exorcise them and close the door behind them.

In our view, Contempt is the rider of the 'pale horse,' and if unleashed often, it can be the death knell of your marriage. Contempt can take the form of eye rolling, belittling comments, name-calling, or other derogatory remarks, but in all of its forms, Contempt implies an underlying lack of respect for your partner and sends the message that you no longer value them. Stonewalling is another form of Contempt, in which you shut down and completely ignore your spouse, again implying that anything your partner feels or has to say is unimportant to you. No matter how angry or frustrated you may be, avoid the use of Contempt or Stonewalling at all costs. Take a time out if you need to, but don't let these two deadly horsemen into your marriage.

Any time you and your spouse are in a heated discussion, and the four horsemen are coming out to gallop around you, be watchful for any 'repair attempts' that your spouse may make in an attempt to deescalate the conversation and redirect things in a more positive direction. Learn to make such repair attempts yourself. One of our favorite stories in this regard is of a young couple out new car shopping, and vehemently disagreeing over whether they should buy an SUV (his choice) or a Jeep (her choice). Just as things are starting to get a bit too heated, the wife suddenly plants her hands on her hips in an 'angry school-girl' stance and sticks her tongue out at her husband. He, familiar with this repair attempt, echoes her and does the same thing to her. They both bust out laughing, and the genuine affection and respect that they have for each other is evident, even though they had just been shouting at each other. It may be difficult to do when you're angry or upset, but making and responding to repair attempts is a critical skill in keeping the Four Horsemen out of your marriage.

[Yes, if the above sounds a little pre-done, I stole the it from a handout that my wife and myself put together for our church. I would have never imagined the two of us actually giving a class together on improving your marriage, but miracles do happen, after all.]

-- B.

[DanceQueen]

Jayce...I have to agree with Bagheera.

Whether you realize it or not, the contempt is oozing out of you for your H. I know that you feel inside that you have every right to feel that way about him...but it is never going to get you any closer to your goal. It will always simply push him away, no matter what he has done that may have caused your contempt.

I know this is a hard pill to swallow, after you feel you've already had to make all the concessions and understanding and sacrificing of your needs. But the bottom line in a case like yours is that unless YOU change, he will not change. The more you stay the same, the more he will as well.

DQ

[Jayce]

OK, you guys. I suppose I do sound like the wicked witch of the west, or shrew of the century - to you - because you're getting the volcanic eruptions. Good thing I'm not in the mood to cry today because guess which one of us uses 3 of the "4 horsemen" pretty much all the time. Up until this whole mess, I hadn't heard contempt, but telling me I'm crazy, need a shrink, must be something WRONG with me sounds like it. He's never said anything like that before. And he's said it several times lately. Besides all the rejection, hurt and "I must be past it, throw me in the garbage" feelings I get from the SSW situation, I get to hear that I'm so mentally defective that I need to be committed. He's the king of stonewalling as well. Hence the one-sided conversations. I haven't been stonewalling. He told me to quit talking and I did. A 180.

I don't have contempt for him. He is what he is. Sometimes almost Jekyll and Hyde. I feel sorry for the chaotic way he grew up. Prts split when he was 4. Mom wouldn't let dad see him. Didn't know his dad until age 15 when older bro came home from military and started taking him for visits. His favorite episode on Taxi was where Danny DeVito is in the hallway outside his gramma's apartment. She's locked him out and they're screaming at each other in Italian through the door. He said it reminded him of his family. My family? My father did not believe in married couples fighting. I never saw him fight with anyone either physically or verbally. He was not a wuss either. If he was angry with someone or I was in hot water, he'd clearly speak his piece on that one thing and be done with it. I never saw grown men fight until I was "hiring and firing in the pits". Saw it on TV, movies, just never in real life. H & his bro's & cousin's got into it in naborhood thru their 20's sometimes. If H got into a fight, his older bro, in place of father, would hit him w/his fists for fighting. I fully understand why he is the way he is regarding conflict, and difficulty with sharing intimate feelings and emotions other than anger. That doesn't mean I like it or enjoy having to deal with something this important the hard way.

I've heard the one about sticking tongues out before. I wish. H does not have a strong sense of humor. Little about himself. He often mistakes conversational jokes as sarcasm or slaps. I'm careful about that. He takes things literally and doesn't get jokes much of the time. Using humor to diffuse things would be great. I grew up and later worked with blue collar guys who are a lot of fun to listen to taking shots at each other. I'm pretty fair at it and have been a part of that in places where I was accepted as one of them. I was taught to be a good sport and have a sense of humor about myself. Have seen H do it w/cousins but rarely and sometimes there's a barb in it. He does get along well with my adult sons and kids around a little with them. He's not a total ogre or anything, but truly difficult if he feels threatened and evidently this issue does that for reasons I've mentioned before.
I'm not criticizing him for his feelings about his job, I just don't like being blamed that he id doing that job. Making it my fault he has bad days at work. Being angry at me for that.
Sorry you don't like the 4 yr old remark, but that's exactly how he stonewalls. I'm not talkin' and you can't make me. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. So there.
We deal with most things successfully tho it was hard for him not to look for subterfuge or traps or future trouble. Example: I ask what time he'll be home from raquetball. He says "Why, do you want me to stay home?" As if my simple question hides something that I'll be mad about later. Huh? I just needed to know when to start supper. It took a looooong time to get him to realize that I am straightforward and I took a long time to realize that that's how his mother would set him up for a later scolding, argument or something to blame him for. We communicate fairly well now. I ask more specific questions: What time do you think you want supper? when you get home or a little later? He'll say later & I'll say "numbers, I want numbers" meaning the time and we'll laugh. Then he'll give a time. We probably sound like a bad sitcom sometimes, but it works since he figured out there's no hidden agenda in ordinary questions. If we are arguing about something simple or that comes up often, we used to end up w/me saying "stubborn Dago" and he'd respond "stubborn Kraut". If you can't laugh about your mutual stereotypical habits....
Not for this issue tho.
He emailed earlier asking if I'd be home later. Suggested we have a fire outside when he gets home. Has never happened before. I'm hoping he's been thinking about what he can talk about instead of walling it off. We'll see. Ball's in his court. It is possible my not talking as he asked concerns him a little bit because that's why he refuses to talk, to make me worry.

It may be awhile until the results of this bad soap opera are available. Just got word that grandson is going into hosp for several days because of seizures. He's 10, has cereberal palsy. Don't know how much time I'll have for a few days.
Have a fine weekend everyone. Keep your fingers crossed for this great little kid. Thanx.

[Jayce]

Sorry I missed answering the body thing. H has always groused about getting a bald spot. His bros both had bigger ones 10 and 20 yrs. before his even showed. His hair's nearly all gray, some white ones in there also. I don't care. As long as he understands a comb-over is a deal breaker LOL He hates those also & we laugh when we see the wind catch one & it flaps up showing the chrome dome. Anyway, not a real big thing.

He's mentioned his weight. For his cardiac health he needs to drop 20#. Sees cardiologist in March. Guarantee he'll get on him about it. He's done it before. Wt. goes away, then comes back. He's a "foodie" and if he quits eating one thing, he'll start something else. He's been 15-20# heavier than he is now. Made snoring and apnea worse. I don't mind the belly as much as I worry about its connection to his health. I don't think that's a big cause of lowering the LD. Since he's started saying he's "old" that might bother him, but its more recent than the problem itself. When I brought up my weight as a cause of his disinterest, he just said he's heavier, too. I do wonder about how bad he really feels about hitting 60. I'm used to thinking about him as being younger than I am and not how he felt about hitting a number. I have to say, 60 is a shock. I felt like "what the hell, how did this happen? What was I doing? Where did the time go?" Other women say similar things. Never heard a guy comment about it.

Maybe I'll find a way to explore that in a subtle way. Just don't think if he had a libido it'd bother him.

Exasperation, not contempt.

[Bagheera]

Good evening, Jayce;

No one is calling you a shrew or a witch around here -- we all understand waht you're feeling, and this ia a place you can vent. I'm also not surprised that your husband is a master of the 'four horsman' also (and men can be particularly good at Stonewalling).

The point is, the two of you are trapped in a pattern of interaction that is very destructive to your relationship, and if left unchanged, your marriage will either end in (a) divorce, or (b) perpetual misery: with no close friendship or intimacy (emotional or physical).

The only way to break out of this trap and begin to repair things is for one of you to refuse to interact in this manner any longer; that is, to disengage from the destructive spiral you are both in. And since YOU are the one trying to seek solutions and is the one here talking to us, YOU'VE been elected, Jayce. Waiting for him is not an option -- in all likelihood, it won't happen.

It won't be easy, but it's your only hope, I think. Perhaps you should get a copy of the Gottman's book that I mentioned previously, along with getting another copy of the SSM. I found the exercises in it to be very helpful in my own efforts to break out of a criticism-defensiveness habit.

Try to have an enjoyable weekend. Your grandson is in my prayers.

Bagheera

[Jayce]

Bagh, Diane, DQ, et. al.
Thanks for the good thoughts about my grandson. Botton line, he has a different seizure med now. Less likely to make him so sleepy and lethargic.

Back to the old subject. Couple weeks ago H told me to stop talking about "it" for awhile. He didn't answer the ques. Sex or your feelings about sex? This past weekend he suggested having a fire one evening. I may have mentioned he never wants to do this. So we did. I pulled our chairs close together & we held hands. He'd said we could sit & talk. Uh huh, right. I was hoping since we'd not talked about problem & had been pleasant for the 2 wks that he was ready to talk about his feelings. Seemed like he set the stage, right? Nope. We chatted. he asked ques about the horse, trail ride. After I answered he came up w/another subject to question. So I talked to him. Each time I said "your turn" and encouraged him to talk. No dice. He just didn't have much to say. He added a little wood so the fire flared up & I figured it'd last another hour or so. I had on long pants & a hoodie. He was in shorts & t-shirt. He was cold. I offered to get his hoodie. Move closer to the fire. No. Pretty soon he was off into the house. I thought we'd been out only half an hour. He said an hour. I sat there a few min. longer, confused? Not really. Why would I have expected him to sit there longer, talk to me about ANYTHING to extend our time that could have been romantic. I went in the house where he already had the TV on & we spent the rest of the evening watching a couple of his favorite shows I'd taped for him. He sat on couch w/me. Arm around most of the time. Silent except for comments on the shows. Bedtime came. I showered, still no clue what's going on w/him, no signal, no comment. So I got into bed & turned the light off, pulled up the covers. THEN he says, don't you want to fool around? I was close to crying by that time. How the hell am I supposed to know ........ Told him once, maybe need to do so again, that it takes awhile for me to get turned on if I have no clue he's interested or have already been turned down. He said he didnt' think he needed "a pill" so we had our usual half hour of me trying to get hot, finish quickly, worrying the whole time the ED would cause a problem before he'd finish. Not going there again. Will explain about pre planning & give him the pill myself so I can relax enough to make it a better experience for both of us.

I've figured out a couple things. One is I think he's shy in some ways, more so years ago, but still there. He describes himself as fat which means he won't do one of my favorite things cuz he thinks he's too heavy. He's not, & has been heavier in the past, but that's the problem now. So evidently there is now a body image problem that wasn't there before, even when he was heavier?? He also mentioned out of the blue (while watching TV of course) that he has no friends. Correct. Hasn't had even a group of "acquaintance" buddies since he quit racquetball. He talks long distance every few weeks to his bro & 2 male cousins. Gets along w/my sons OK, but does not initiate contact or "hang out" with them even tho one has a hobby H is interested in.
He usually says "no, they're busy" if I suggest he call snyone.

When he asked me to not talk, I didn't as I said before. I had things to do 2 mornings & wasn't home before he left for work. Was in bed before he got home one night. This makes him uncomfortable & worries him. Can't win. If I'm busy in some other part of the house for awhile, he'll come looking for me and ask if I'm mad. Evidently cuz I haven't talked to him in that hour or two that I've been working on something. He is a walking contradiction. I'm used to it, but I also see the discomfort with not seeing me for a day or two as fear of loss? I think he got married so as not to be lonely and to have someone to sleep in the same bed. Not sure he wanted much more besides cooking, cleaning & laundry. If I'm going out or shopping he'll always ask if I have enough money.

I've been reading the New Male Sexuality book I got at the libe. I'm definitely buying it and he's definitely reading this one, not negotiable. The man is CLUELESS just like many in the book. I can't believe ALL men are like this. In any case, he needs to see this and how differently women see it. He is sensitive to being thought of as stupid or whatever. THis will help him see its a problem all guys have & he's not stupid, just typical. I hope it helps him to work on better communication.

In the scheme of me having to do the heavy lifting in resolving our issues, just because he's typical doesn't mean I have to like it. I mentioned some time back about his smoking & sneaking even tho he's said he quit many times over the years. It causes ED, it makes ED worse, by wrecking the small arteries, not just in the penis, but throughout the body. Weakens the lungs through the crap it deposits in them. Supposedly he quit the cigars in July......... I was really happy about this, relaxed a little about his cardiac health. Figured he really cared, etc, etc, etc. Stupid me. Believed and trusted him, Mr. Sneak. Found large butt in trash this evening. The smell gave it away when I dumped some stuff in the can. Did not go ballistic. When he called, I asked as if afterthought if any of the new nabors smoked cigars. Said I'd been smelling it around the deck & garage. He couldn't imagine where it was coming from, hasn't seen them smoke, etc etc. Since I didn't put it in the garbage can, who else? Its in the garage & only 2 of us live here. I feel like a damn fool believing that at last he had a good enough reason to quit and he cared enough about having a sex life (and a life at all) that this time he really quit. Cheated, gypped? You bet. So when I bring up masturbation & he says he doesn't..... He's probably laughing his ass off at me every time he does it. I feel like I can't believe anything he says including the excuses about being fat or old or whatever the latest one is. And loving me and being sorry he upsets me and pretty much everything else. If he lies about one thing that's important to me (to shut me up & get me off his back and/or to prove me wrong in his mind) he'll lie about anything and everything else.

Its too late now to be in bed before he gets home, but I'll be out long before he wakes up, I have to work & that means up at 4:30. I'm not saying anything about the cigar tonite. I'm sure he knows there's a chance I found it or I wouldn't have said anything. I hope he's afraid I'll blow up. Probably, but he's not going to know when. Probably next time he tells me something like he loves me, or I am desirable, or .... I might ask if that's a lie, too.

Nighty nite
Tal;

[diane74]

Well wow Jayce!

When I was reading about how you were there sitting by the fire waiting for him to "talk", I know that feeling. Sitting there and in your mind thinking, " OK buddy, anytime now." lol I understand fully. I'd go months and say nothing, and then he'd do something out of the ordinary, and I thought ok, here it comes. Finally! NOPE! But, in hindsight, on both men, I do now think it is there way of trying. But when it gets down to it, they can't have the " real " talk for whatever reason. Being scared, not knowing what to say, afraid of ruining a perfectly good evening, or maybe scared it will end up in a fight. As I'm assuming it has, because I know it has here a lot.

Here is what jumped out at me in that story. You mentioned that he never wants to sit by the fire. Sounds as if he's trying, and the "fire" was almost like foreplay in his eyes. He knows you want more, and he knows your waiting,then when he went to bed and asked, " Don't you want to fool around?" Hmmmmmmmmm Made me think he really thought you should have figured it out. When in reality you were sitting there hoping and waiting for more, and he was more then likely sitting there telling himself, " good job, this ought to make her happy and realize I love her."

YOU and I, know better.( Or need more ) I mean, I would have thought the exact same thing as you. I would have been baffled, but if you really look at it, it kind of gave me hope for you. Looks as if he may be trying to do what you want, he just happens to be WAY off the mark so to speak. But, at least there's effort. It's a starting point. :S

That's what I thought anyway.

Glad to hear about your grandson, hope the new meds work!

[Bagheera]

Good morning, Jayce;

You deserve a great deal of credit for turning what could have been a disastrous and contentious evening into a starting place. You did exactly the right thing by VERY DILIBERATELY biting your tongue, biding your time, and being *patient*. I do understand how difficult that was for you.

You wrote:

I've been reading the New Male Sexuality book I got at the libe. I'm definitely buying it and he's definitely reading this one, not negotiable. The man is CLUELESS just like many in the book. I can't believe ALL men are like this.

All men share the characteristics described in Zilbergeld's book, but to varying degrees. In order to understand why, pay particular attention to his chapters describing how men are raised to become men, and how that effects our interactions with women in adulthood. A few key points, from my own upbringing:

1) Feminine behavior is not tolerated.

I can remember being told: don't act like a girl, don't sit/stand/run/throw/fight like a girl, and don't play like a girl (playing 'house', with dolls, etc.). Doing *anything* 'like a girl' will cause you to be criticized and/or rejected by both the adult men in your life and your peers.

So I was deliberately taught that displaying behavior that emphasized relationships, caring, nurturing, sharing feelings was unmanly.

2) The only valid *negative* emotion that a man is permitted to show is ANGER: everything else is forbidden and makes you look weak and feminine.

For example, I had an uncle that would yank me over and hold his hands like a cup in front of me if I ever broke into tears in his presence: "Come over here and cry me a handful!" he'd say loudly and mockingly. Showing fear, hurt, disappointment, etc. in my Dad's presence would earn me a scowl, NOT comfort and reassurance. Being angry, being agressive, however, WAS permitted and encouraged.

So I was deliberately taught that a man channels all of his negative emotions into anger, or does not show them at all. You learn to push them aside, ignore them, overcome them, and *never* express them openly. In order to maintain the level of control expected, you learn to detach yourself from your emotions, especially negative or 'feminine' ones.

3) Manhood must be earned.

Given the standards of the men around me while I was growing up, I never even considered myself to be a MAN until I was about 20 years old and completely self-sufficient, self-reliant, and on my own. When I was 32 and lost my eyesight, I also felt like I had lost my manhood, and had to re-earn it again from scratch, not just having to regain my independence but also my ability to support my wife and children again.

This concept, that manhood is not a given based upon gender, but a status that must be *earned*, puts a LOT of pressure on the man, and anything that calls your status into question -- such as an inability to perform sexually -- can have a magnified effect on how you feel about yourself. It isn't just your sexual performance that is at issue: it's your entire identity as a man. So avoidance of the issue and extreme defensiveness are common responses -- rather than working with your partner to address the problem.

Now, before you condemn my three points above, I'd like you to think about the following: Every point above was enforced upon me, not just by the men in my life, but ALSO by the women. These were the traits that mothers, grandmothers, and aunts EXPECTED me to develop --> they encouraged it, they applauded it when I displayed these masculine traits, and they lambasted me when I didn't, just about as much as the men. The truth is, WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO MASCULINE TRAITS, and encourage them in the young men under their charge.

There is a Catch-22 here, particular in today's modern society where there is a drive to androgynize both men and women:

** Women today are encouraged to adapt more masculine traits, especially in the workplace, and are even taught that being too feminine, too girly, is a bad thing. Yet men are still sexually attracted to a woman who is in touch with and knows hows to flaunt her femininity. **

** Men today are encouraged to adapt more feminine traits, especially in the home, and are even taught that being too masculine, too gruff, is a bad thing. Yet women are still sexually attracted to a man who is in touch with and knows hows to flaunt his masculinity. **

In both cases, many of the very things that frustrate us to no end in a relationship are the very same things that make our mate sexually attractive to us. Fun, huh?

So yes: your husband needs to learn how to discuss and express his feelings to you better, rather than disappearing into his 'man cave.' He needs to open up, discuss, and work toward fixing some very sensitive issues, for the good of the relationship and your mutual happiness. And yes, he has a lot to learn about women, how to stay emotionally connected to them, romance them, and seduce them (the eleventh hour "don't you want to fool around" is very typical male behavior).

BUT....he's got a lifetime of conditioning behind his current behavior, and it takes a lot of time and effort to overcome this conditioning. And in doing so, he will have maintain a high enough level of masculinity to (a) continue to qualify himself as a "MAN," and (b) keep you sexually attracted to him. Bernie Z makes it sound easier than it is.

Some food for thought,

-- B.