Please help me to not give up............

[grant]

Well, just journaling again.

Had a weekend visit at home and had some friendly honest conversations with my W.
I had been thinking about GFI's suggestion about "leaking" some of my attitudes on this board to my wife. I had been avoiding R talks in my visits our calls home, and latgely acting "as if". But I was really struggling on Sunday, doing "family tasks" around the home together. Just for a moment, it almost felt like a normal Sunday, and then I was suddenly overwhelmed with grief and sadness again.

She said she was sorry to see me so upset, and offered to leave in future times when I'd come to visit the boys. This lead to a long chat about things, not in a confrontational or bitter way, but with a warmth and honesty.
She talked a little about her R with OM, and I do believe that they are not in an affair in the adulterous sense.

I wondered PDT, if you thought that it made a difference in the case of an EA.
My guess is that you would probably have a similar approach to those with PA's

I do feel desperately low at the moment. This is largely due to my lack of success in the gal department. I still suffer from way too much preoccupation with my R and M, and what I might be doing better to improve things.

I had been focusing on friendship, and because I'm not there much, I know that's going to take time. But in fact, we still do very much have that friendship there, and I think we have moved that on a great deal by working on things individually over the past months.

She says she has forgiven me for the things that I have done. There is little bitterness in her attitude toward me when we are together. It's like she's really almost at peace with the end of our M, and is just tying up emotional "loose ends".

I did tell her that I believed she would not truly experience her new status until she lived completely independently financially from me. She agreed and told me that it did scare her, but is ready to take that step if it's necessary.

For her, my weekend visits are not so far removed from our old life, when I'd work away and then come home on a friday. She said that having me there was like still having her best friend there, and we still had a glass of wine and a chat together. I guess she was saying that she wouldn't really know if she missed our marriage and R until I was really removed from it.

So, it looks like I'm going to have to go "dim" or "darker" or something.......

It's clearly that, or to have to consider filing myself. I still can't quite reconcile that with Michelle's attitude toward this. Although I think it's more about the LBS getting to the point that the pain and rejection, the unrequited love, becomes so unbearable that something has to change.

I don't know whether 6 months is long enough. My W certainly doesn't think that 6 months is long enough to decide whether you divorce or not. I almost wanted to give her the DR book, but I know that would probably not be helpful, even though she's now aware of my participation here.

In any case, I know it's not about 6 months or a year, or whatever. It's about when I decide I can't do this anymore.

My biggest fear, is the feeling that I am watching some predestined scene unfold before me, and that I might miss some opportunity to somehow alter the final outcome. I really want to do the right thing.....

Guess I'm back where I started with the "please help me to not give up" thread. lol

All thoughts greatly appreciated.

Grant

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Grant,

I wondered PDT, if you thought that it made a difference in the case of an EA.
My guess is that you would probably have a similar approach to those with PA's

No, no difference in terms of how to approach it, except perhaps that EAs, for women, are even harder to bust up, as the woman is, by definition, much more emotionally entrenched in the relationship. If it were "just sex," it would actually be EASIER to bust up the affair, and her withdrawal period would be significantly SHORTER.

I don't know what advice I have for you today that I haven't already said. So instead, I'm going to leave you with something that I just read today, that for some reason made me think of you and your sitch just this second.

Peace,

Puppy


Sheep, Wolves, and Sheep Dogs

I am given to understand that this letter was written by Charles Grennel and his comrades -- veterans of the Global War on Terror. Grennel is an Army Reservist who spent two years in Iraq and was a principal in putting together the first Iraqi elections in 2005. It was written to Jill Edwards, a student at the University of Washington who did not want to honor Medal of Honor winner USMC Colonel Greg Boyington because Ms. Edwards and other students (and faculty) did not think those who serve in the U.S. armed services are good role models. Grennel and his comrades quote William Bennett's speech to the Naval Academy in 1997 as the keynote to their letter.

To: Edwards, Jill (student, UW)
Subject: Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Miss Edwards,

I read of your "student activity" regarding the proposed memorial to Col. Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor winner. I suspect you will receive a bellyful of angry e-mails from conservative folks like me.



You may be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of servicemen and servicewomen on whose shoulders you and your fellow students stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté. It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being a sheep - - as long as you know and accept what you are.

William J. Bennett, in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy, November 24, 1997 said: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.



Then there are the wolves and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.

Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Then there are sheepdogs, and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. If you have no capacity for violence then you are
a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, warrior, someone who is walking the unchartered path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human
phobia, and walk out unscathed.

We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than by fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

Many of the students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter. He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And
that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.



Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When they learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd and the other passengers confronted the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents - from sheep to sheepdogs, and together they
fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men," said Edmund Burke.



Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you.



If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolves comes knocking at the door.

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degree, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between.

Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and
appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. It is okay to be a sheep, but do not kick the sheep dog. Indeed, the sheepdog may just run a little harder, strive to protect a little better and be fully prepared to pay an ultimate price in battle and spirit with the sheep moving from "baa" to "thanks".

We do not call for gifts or freedoms beyond our lot. We just need a small pat on the head, a smile and a thank you to fill the emotional tank which is drained protecting the sheep. And when our number is called by "The Almighty", and day retreats into night, a small prayer before the heavens just may be in order to say thanks for letting you continue to be a sheep.


And be grateful for the thousands - millions - of American sheepdogs who permit you the freedom to express even bad ideas.

Sincerely,

Charles Grennel



OM/OW are predators -- wolves -- make no mistake. We can decide to be sheep and say "baa" when confronted with their attack to our marriages and our families, or we can choose to be a sheepdog, and do everything within our power to fight them, and to save our flock that is our family. -- Puppy

[grant]

Puppy,
Thanks once again for thinking of me. I value very much your input and insight.

The Piece did of course start me thinking about whether I was a sheep or a sheepdog.

I can quite clearly see the analogy here. The thing is that I think that I AM fighting.
I am fighting for myself, my family and my marriage by making changes in myself, and by trying my best to follow the DR principles in the best way I can in relation to my situation.

I think if I truly felt that my wife's relationship with OM was the reason for the breakdown in our marriage, and the underlying reason for her not wanting to work on it, then I would find it easier to pursue a more aggressive approach to this.

The truth is, as I understand it, she ended the M because of all that has happened before, and not because of an all consuming EA with this man.

She had many issues with him from when she was very young, and I don't think either of them had sufficient "closure".

I have therefore not felt in any position of strength or sufficient detatchment to embark on the more demanding, ultimatum-delivering approach.

That's not to say that I digest and think on every word that you have said on my sitch Pup. And I vacillate daily, between thinking I must have more patience, and to keep working on myself, and that other place that I dread to go in my mind. The place where I have to think about filing, or threatening to file.

I just don't think she is in a place to respond positively to that. But if my goal, to use the analogy, is to be more like the "sheepdog", I'm just not sure what else I might have in my arsenal to use against the wolf. I think that the irony here is that the "wolf" here is not so much this OM, but to some extent within me.

That's why my own introspection and heartfelt changes are so necessary in this process. I think it takes great courage and guts to face those things, and to love unconditionally with no expectation.

If my last remaining action is to think about filing, then I had better be sure that I am able to live with the fact that if it goes to the bitter end and we do divorce, then I can live with those consequences. I don't want to end up thinking... "what if I had just waited a few more months, had more patience. etc."

But I know that inaction is also almost as bad.

Do you think there's something more I could do without going for the big one?

Thanks so much Pup.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

The truth is, as I understand it, she ended the M because of all that has happened before, and not because of an all consuming EA with this man.

Sorry, but I cry "fogged-out bullchit" on that one, Grant. "As I understand it"?????

Do you REALLY agree with that, or do you think that maybe she has just CONVINCED herself of this, to justify her behavior?

(Hint: don't let the fact that 95% of all waywards say this influence you one way or another.)

Puppy

[grant]

In truth Pup, I think it's a bit of both.

I understand that this is pretty much "script" for WAS. But I'm not sure that means that there isn't any truth in it for them.

I believe her, because I think she DOES has justifications for ending the M, but I also know that her R with OM whether platonic or more, has had some sort of effect on how we now interact.

How can I change that without instigating proceedings???


There have been baby steps though. I must be careful not to ignore little signs of warmth or gestures.
Things have changed a bit.......

Damn.......

You got me thinking about assertion and self-respect again........
But I've only been DBing properly for about 2 months.

I'm sick of this rollercoaster, sick of being torn, and not REALLY knowing what might be for the best. I'm starting to sound impatient.

I just don't want to fail.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

OK, I'll be quiet then.

I'll just leave you with this: you may have had issues in the marriage, but her adultery will have been the break point. She needs to own that, and so do you. 6-12 months of honest reconciliation effort, free from contact with OM, and the playing field becomes level adn equal again.

But it's far from that now. This is HER mess, and SHE will be responsible for the demise of the marriage.

Puppy

[grant]

Pup,

Please don't be quiet. That's the last thing I want. lol.
I am sometimes a bit slow on the uptake, and I do have problems with change and the acceptance of it.

I value your perspective and thoughts enormously.
You make me think about things in a way I would not normally consider, and that is for me right now, a very good thing.

I'm really searching for guidance and solutions to this, and perhaps in my haste to accept blame and to validate her reasons to you and others, I might appear in denial, or closed off to other avenues of approach.

I am not "closed off", it's just that I simply don't know how to get her to "own" the fact that her EA was the break point. Other than trying to convey that to her in a couple of emails and convos with her.

It's true that when I did confront her, there was a fairly dramatic reaction. That is, I suppose, to be accepted in these situations. But it made the atmosphere so tense and traumatic, that it seemed to push me further from my initial "friendship first" goal.

More recently, she came close to admitting that her interactions with this man were
wrong, in the sense that we had both done things to bring us to where we are now.
But almost in the same breath, she justifies it by saying that she had never committed adultery.
So, I guess in a way, she is owning it somewhat. Her saying that, and that she has forgiven me for what I have done in the past, is perhaps a sign that she has moved on personally and maybe slightly away from the illicit thrill of her EA.

What I can't know, is that in my confronting her and making things tense and uncomfortable, somehow DID push things forward toward her respecting me again, and more importantly was NOT at odds with my goal to re establish friendship.

I do know that the atmosphere between us right now, is better than it has been this last 6 months.

I struggle with dilemma that in DR we are supposed to (in cases of physical separation with little contact or threat of divorce)
NOT talk about OP.

Do you think Pup, that my situation is different here?

I know that you don't hold much with the theory about "pushing them further toward OP". I can see that when someone is already together with OP and there is little further damage that can be done. But my wife is not actually "with" this guy. although she's certainly not "with" me either.

How can I ask her to commit to 6-12 months of reconcilliation effort and NC with OM, if she is adamant that she doesn't want to work on us, and still believes that our marriage has broken down to the point where she feels it cannot be mended?

I guess I can't. Or if I do, then I have to be prepared for the worst.
It could all come down to timing. I suppose I'll know if and when I must deliver that ultimatum.

Am I a "sheep" if I continue to give her time and space to work through her feelings?
Am I in denial if I continue to wait, while working on myself?

I want to be strong, to move forward, and to make the tough decisions.

I love her so very much........

[grant]

Okay,
Well I've had a terrible week. No contact with W, didn't go home at the weekend, and I feel like I've hit rock bottom. I can't concentrate on anything and my hope and self respect are now at an all time low.

I have been thinking so much about what Puppy has said, and I'm really close to giving up and filing for D. I've been looking at divorce legal advice sites and it seems that I am even worse off than I thought. My only real asset is the family home, and unless she agrees to sell, uproot the kids and her mum, then it's likely that the courts will insist that they continue living there.

Each time I force myself to consider D, I break down and weep, because I do not want it. It is the last thing I want.

Perhaps Pup, though I know you are really stretched trying to help so many people on these boards, you might be able to advise on my next step.

I am thinking of writing her an email, where I let her know that I love her very much, but I am unable to live this way any more. I'm pretty sure thaat this will have little effect, because she will likely reply that her feelings have gone and she doesn't know how to get them back.
I have this last and very faint hope, that if I do tell her and follow through with action that demonstrates I am serious, then it might alter her perspective.

Would this show to her that I am weak, and giving up on us?

I could go on with this longer I think, if I felt that she was not talking to OM anymore. But I know she is, and I just don't know where that might lead.

I struggle with the thought that I would be doing this in a last ditch effort to make her change, and frankly she's probably not in a position to do that.

But I am going slowly mad. I feel so isolated, lonely and worthless.

I'm also scared that filing will sound the final death knell and there will be no turning back. She maybe secretly wishing that I would do it anyway, though I don't think she'll be happy that I would, and will probably reinforce her thoughts of blaming me for everything, and about what a loser I am.

She's probably right.

I've had it.

[grant]

Well, my last post wasn't terribly positive. It's been a tough couple of days with our 19th anniversary yesterday. It just happened to coincide with my telling her that I was going to get legal advice, and lead to the talk about OM. She's still going with the "this has nothing to do with him" stance, but says it's over. I still have doubt in my mind whether it is, and if she is still hoping that will work out for her. But she knows now that I am moving to a slightly different perspective.

After a talk, I realised that her not filing for D herself up to this point, was not because she held out any hope for our marriage, but only because she wanted sufficient time for us all to get used to the idea. She has this thought that it will be nice and easy and amicable, and we will drop the D bomb when we get to the point that we and the kids are somehow comfortable with the idea???

Am I wrong to think that idea is untenable? I know where she is coming from, but it does seem unreasonable to me to think that somehow going through the process of divorce and the lead up to it could be "comfortable".

In any case, I guess I keep going with the flow, trying to detatch, and hold on to the best DR solutions I can.

Not feeling quite so worthless today, but not sure why.........

[Dee2]

Dear Grant,

I've preinted your thread and have been reading it over the past couple of days. I must say that I haven't finished it yet. Meanwhile, I realize that we're similar in that we're both away from our spouses although the distance in my case is larger (I am in Egypt and H is in America). Nonetheless, we both have a feeling that being away contributed to where we are now.

You said that you believe in giving out positive vibes and doing visualization. I, too, believe in that. Like you, I had forgotton to practice it for a few months. But, I realize that it's never too late so I do it as much as I can now.

I see that you haven't posted in a few days. I hope things are getting better for you.

You mentioned in one of your postings about the "making her happy newsletter". Can you tell me what this is?

Best of Luck on your journey.