Jayce's thread

[DanceQueen]

Jayce...thanks for all the extra info.

Please don't take this as harsh but...if divorce is not an option, then he may never see that HE has to step up as an option. Many times in cases like yours (and there are hundreds of them on this forum, just that the gender roles are reversed) it takes an ultimatum in order to cause change. The LD person has to realize that the HD person will actually LEAVE the marriage before they realize exactly how serious this is. Therefore, if divorce is not an option, then you really have no option but to just hope he changes of his own accord. Which isn't all that likely, but you already know that.

I know you were hoping to hear from other LD guys to hear what they are thinking and why...maybe to get some tips from them as to anything you could do or change to help the situation.

Unfortuantely, as you now know, no guys like that are going to come forth on this forum. I doubt they would come forth on any forum. Women with LD also do not come forth very often, and even when they do, they rarely even understand their OWN LD issues...they can't even explain why they are LD. They only know they want to avoid sex.

I was LD during my long marriage. We were essentially sexless for 15 years. It took a divorce, lots of therapy, and reading tons of books for me to really figure out why I was LD.

I found it was not my hormones (normal), it was not my upbringing (no religious stuff in the way or guilt about sex)...it was actually a mostly a result of my anger at my husband for not meeting my OTHER needs - emotional, financial, other types of support. Because he didn't meet these other needs, I went inside of myself and didn't want to meet his sexual needs. Although at the time, I didn't know I was doing this. I literally thought I just had LD and that "oh well, some women just don't want sex that often!" Over time, I finally accepted that there was indeed something wrong with me...but I still didn't know what it was. I thought I was just a messed up person. I did not realize it was actually our poor dynamic in play that zapped all my sexual hunger FOR HIM away (I still had the hunger, just not for him).

I'm only telling you this so that you can see...from within the mind of an LD person, they do not know consciously what the "problem" is. They can't just sit you down and tell you straight up "its because of x, y, z and if you just do a, b, and c, everything will be all better".

The info on the smoking is definitely at play here though...and you are correct that possibly after some more nictoine free days and weeks and months, his blood vessels will be more willing to be open.

However...his real problem is likely to be more emotional than anything else. Have you read Diane's thread? You two showed up here on the same day with the same problem....hopefully you can at least encourage each other (or cry on each other's shoulders). However, we'll all help both of you as much as we can!

DQ

[diane74]

Hi Jayce,

Yes, it seems you and I are kindred spirits, lucky us! lol Arghh! I know exactly how your feeling, and I myself am trying to learn from all the great advice here and NOT do what we both want to do. Which is grab these 2 men by the collar and scream WTF, and why the hell not, and whats your issue buddy.......... lol Now, I am assuming thats what you would like to do as well, but I think im correct in thinking this. lol

It is taking everything in me to slow myself down at the moment in taking the advise of these mentors on the site. Everything that has been said actually does make sense, if you can try and not be emotional about it, but at the same time, that is a TALL order. When everything in me wants to scream and stomp my feet at times.

I've often felt like I was lied to, and almost tricked into thinking I was entering a marriage that was " of course " going to have sex in it. I feel cheated.Now I feel like the joke was on me per say. Which makes me once again want to grab him and scream," why? " At times even ask what is so wrong with me ....... etc..... When I do know it's not me, but very hard to remember sometimes isn't it. Sometimes I hit those funks where I do think maybe it is just me.

Reading all I have read, and listening to all the great advice and learning what others have been through, I am coming to realize that I did contribute to this somewhat. BUT........ doesn't help does it.. when all we want are husbands in EVERY sense of the word. Is that much to ask??

My 2cents for now

Hang in there

[Bagheera]

Greetings Jayce,

I have some questions for you. You've mentioned that you have read both the Sex-Starved Marriage and the Sex-Starved Wife. Both books promote a pragmatic, trial-and-error, goal-setting and goal-monitoring approach toward solving your SSM, with either one or both partners working the issue. There are sections specifically addressed to the LD partner, the HD partner, and both partners working together.

(1) What was your experience with these books?

(2) Did you set any goals and begin working the issue on your own? What seemed to be working and what didn't?

(3) What goals could you possibly set now, and seek to impliment in your relationship?

Best regards,

Bagheera

[Jayce]

Funny you should ask. Got them at library, thought about buying so I could write in the margins. SSW made me cry. Lately I can't seem to do anything else when I get involved w/the problem. What causes crying? Feeling helplesness.

SSW helped in that I found I'm not alone in all this. I read it after several other books about male loss of libido. Got into the whole thing up to my neck including sexual dysfunctions. Even took notes. Asked him to read parts of a couple. No dice. Read some notes to him. Not receptive. By the time I got to SSW I'd already made appt. w/family Dr. "To talk about effects of BP meds on erectile function" He went, got script & blood draw for T-test. Later told me he was deeply embarrasssed about the whole experience. In his book that means I owe him in some way.

Meanwhile I continued reading medical stuff both on line and books. You've read my comments about nicotine's effects. He did quit the cigars aboaut 2 mo. ago. Pills work, he doesn't like them. I think he's afraid they'll cause a heart attack. Would not read information about how they work.

SSW tells me not to feel ugly, whatever. Repeated some of what I'd already read about psych issues, PE, anger. I'd figured out the anger. He later confirmed it. Knew he has apnea, know its a libido killer. Never really pushed for sleep test before, probably should have. It may have contributed to his heart attack.

SSM eventually caused more tears, especially the part directed to the LD partner basically telling them they need to make an effort. I am not unobjective. I saw myself in many of the comments. Even without all that, I knew I couldn't keep being direct. My usual way of persuading or convincing is to use facts, including scientifically proven information and basic physiology. He didn't want to hear any of that. Got the How to Get Through to the Man You Love book. Short story, tried a lot of the stuff. Some worked. Simple basics like I'd like you to not sound angry when you talk to me. (He's not always, but he's gruff, complains about a lot of other unrelated things and he's not really mad or upset, just talking.) Did a few other similar things. He knows that like your wife, seeing his genitals is a turn on. Thanked him for going to the Dr. even tho it was embarrassing. Weathered the huge tantrum he threw before having the sleep test. Continued doing the stuff in the "how to" book.

He refuses to be involved in any goal setting or soul searching or anything like that. So I continued on my own best I could. Occasionally he is willing to have sex. Not often. Initiated 3 times, unfortunately, 2 of those were shortly after rejections & I was miserable & about as turned on as a stone at the North Pole. Later explained in non-blaming way how that works. Can't tell if he's clueless or just hopes it'll be OK. All along I've felt most of the sex was either a charity thing or to get me off his back.

I've been losing weight all summer. Need to lose more. Was not obese. Never wanted to look "middle aged" but loss of daughter kinda blew away any energy or motivation I had for a long time. I spend time with my horse, golfing, usual stuff. He's fine with that, but if I'm not here on a Sat. or Sun. most of the day, he mentions it. Don't know why. He spends both afternoons napping. Not like he wanted to go somewhere together, do something fun. So I'm trying to take care of myself. (read your 4 steps)

Working on the Mars Venus book now. He won't read that either, trust me. He feels I'm trying to "change him 1000%", control him, say he's wrong, stupid, whatever words he can blow out of his mouth as loud & fast as he can. His mother used to employ yelling at people to make them go away when they were trying to get her to do something she didn't want to, or that scared her, or that'd result in her admitting to something she wanted to hide. He does pretty much the same thing. I'm not sure if he really thinks I'm nuts or there's something wrong with me or he just says that to scare me, lose confidence,make me shut up. I guess we can add the excuse that he's "OLD" to the bad back and all the rest.

I am higher desire than he is but not exeptionally HD. Being told he wasn't interested in sex anymore raised it way up, as you might guess. If I were to say the same to him, he wouldn't have the same reaction. Not smoking might be closest he could relate.

A big part of this is his failure to take care of himself. I haven't gone over the edge like this since his brother died of lung cancer 20 yrs ago (also a lifetime smoker)and I wanted him to quit. He did. Sure. Every time he left the house he'd have a cig. If I wasn't home, he'd be working in the yard, smoking. Hid 'em in the garage, under the spare tire.....Smoked at work. Refused to take statins back then also. I cannot lose anyone else. He knows I feel that way. My kids have their lives and interests. I don't want to be dependent on them for company, daily conversation, etc. And they can't take the place of a spouse.

I can't lose having a sex life for many of the same reasons. Intimacy, sensuality, touching, shared pleasurable experiences. And I hate that I have to try to keep it together and do this whole thing alone with zero input and little or no cooperation from him. When I got upset today, he said he thought things were getting better. Well, yeah, they were, a little. I was being really nice, doing the program, we had sex a couple times and now its back to he's, tired, has a cold, sore back, after napping all afternoon.... So I suppose he thinks because he responded a little a few weeks ago that's all he needs to do. Now he can quit again. And he still thinks I'm nuts and need a shrink. I asked him if he'd prefer I left him alone and had an affair. No answer. Omerta. Secrecy. The silent man. Do not let your girls marry Italians, especially Sicilians.

Guess I overdid the answer. Sorry

[Bagheera]

Thanks for the answer Jayce. I'm going to respond in what I hope will be seen as a constructive way, because there ia a pattern here that I wish to point out.

You wrote:

"Working on the Mars Venus book now. He won't read that either, trust me. He feels I'm trying to "change him 1000%", control him, say he's wrong, stupid...

The impression that I am getting from your posts is that he may actaully have a point, from his male point-of-view. You have MAJOR complaints about him in many areas:

* his career and job choices
* his health (back problems and smoking)
* his hobbies (his obsession over 1 hobby)
* his daily habits (napping, TV watching, beer/wine drinking)
* his inability to communicate and express his feelings / emotions, and of course,
* his libido.

And you seem to point out these fault areas to him often. It's a very Venusian thing to do, and a way for women to show that they care about someone (and are attempting to improve and nurture them), but this approach is abosultely the wrong way to get a man to change.

He will feel criticized continually ('nagged'). He will feel not good enough, NEVER good enough to please you. He will feel unneeded, completely unaccepted, and UNLOVED.

And as a result he will dig in his heels, retreat, disconnect completely from you, and will NEVER try to change. Why try? It won't be good enough or she'll move the target to something else that's not good enough for her.

Over the course of my own studies in the area of relationships, I have discovered many little ironies: little truths that underline the fact that in dealing with the opposite sex, sometimes the most effective way (or the ONLY way) to get what you want is to take an indirect, almost opposite approach to them. This is one of those ironies:

The only way to get a man to change for you, is to accept him and demonstrate that you love him EXACTLY AS HE IS. Once he feels loved and accepted, he will voluntarily, and of his own free will, begin to look for ways to improve himself and make himself better in your eyes.

This is a truism, Jayce. I know how this works personally, on me. If I feel under-the-gun by my wife, criticized, henpecked, and never able to please her, then I'm very likely to say "screw her" and do my own damn thing regardless of what she thinks. Rather than let her 'control' me (which is how it feels to a man), I'll assert my masculinity and prove my manly independence.

BUT....if my wife accepts and shows her love for me *exactly as I am,* my natural reaction is to look for ways to do better, to improve myself, to be her Knight in Shining Armor in even more and better ways.

-- B.

[diane74]

Maybe I am having a bad day and I'll feel differently tomorrow, but............. When I read your response her Bagheera a ton of emotion went right through me. These are the questions I guess you could say that are going through my head today.......

1) Is this not just a form of manipulation in a way. Going through step 2. It's basically stroking his ego until he's ready to jump on board is it not. I have to say, that today Im offended by that notion. ( not of u ) Cause this would be my point. I went TWO YEARS with NOTHING.......... For 2 years I said nothing, I smiled and was there for him. Let him kiss and hug and cuddle. When he needed some1 to talk to I was there. The list continues, so after all that its MY job to pave the way in a sense..... ???????? Hmmmmm Can you see where I'm going with this. Starting to wonder here if I'm doomed. That no matter what I do, it's not going to work. WHEN does he feel the need to stroke my ego, and walk on eggshells for me.

2)How about HIM accepting ME for me, and dealing with the issue at hand. Because even if it is all a reality, and he doesn't know there's a real problem, or hes afraid etc........ Shouldn't the fact HIS WIFE< who he supposedly loves TOLD him there was a problem be enough? Shouldn't the fact that he saw me crying many times over be enough for him to say to himself, hmmmmmmm maybe I should try ???



Bad day, sorry

[Bagheera]

We're all entitled to a bad day, Diane -- I'm sorry you are going through this, and feeling so angry and abandoned.

You asked:

1) Is this not just a form of manipulation in a way?

No. For me, it was a matter of proving to my wife that when I said that I intended to turn-around our relationship and make it significantly better, I bloody well meant it. She was initially extremely skeptical that I truly meant to do so, for the long term. She was primed to expect that yeah, I might really work at it for a few days, or a few weeks, but that it wouldn't last. When I first set out on this campaign, she'd talk to her mother on the phone, and my Mother-in-law would ask "Well, is he still in 'honeymoon-mode'? or has it worn off yet?" Niether one of them thought it would last. Or worse, they figured it was simply a ploy to 'get laid,' rather than an earnest effort on my part to show my love for my wife in a language that SHE WOULD UNDERSTAND, and to meet her needs for the first time in years.

Only after a few months of this, did I feel like I had the right to demand that she now do her part too. I wasn't asking her to tackle a VERY difficult issue for her in a vacuum, whilst I stood by. I wasn't playing the game of "I won't change until you do." I had *already* shown her that I meant business, and that I was fully capable and willing to meet her more than halfway in repairng things.

In other words, I actively acknowledged MY PART of the relationship problem, and then showed her that I was able and willing to do something about --> that I was willing to change for her (for us), BEFORE asking her to change herself.

2)How about HIM accepting ME for me, and dealing with the issue at hand.

In an ideal relationship, you're right: that's all it should have taken to get him to address the problem. But life is never fair, is it?

In nearly every case, the LD spouse has an extremely difficult time accepted and acknowledging the pain that the lack of physical intimacy causes the HD spouse. They all do. My wife did. It means (1) recognizing the pain that they have caused over the course of YEARS to you, and (2) it means shattering the belief that "Who needs sex? What's the big deal? I don't need it or want it...so my partner shouldn't either."

For over 20 years my wife never really understood what physical intimacy means to me. That's an extremely long time, and she knows me better than anyone else. It took months of relationship work on my part, a reading of Chapter 1 of the SSM, and the knowledge that if we didn't fix that aspect of our relationship that I was going to leave her, before she finally GOT IT --> she *finally* understood how vital it was to me, and by extension, to us.

Before that, she figured it was on a mental par with, say, fine chocolate. Sure he wants it all the time, but he should be able to live without it. It's just chocolate, so be happy when you get it occasionally, but don't expect it all the time.

They just don't get it, Diane, before that epiphany occurs. So your job is to 'set the stage' for that epiphany, and make the possibility of it happening as sure as you can.

-- B.

[Jayce]

Bagheera, Threw you a curve ball, sorry. Ex husb had the hobby obsession.

I have no problem w/his career choices. He is an external locus of control person and tends to be a quitter at times. That means "everything happens to me" and "Nobody will gimme..." as well as the ever popular "you made me do it". He used to be quick to discuss blame and bring up stuff from the stone age during arguments. After 1st couple yrs of marriage, I mentioned that he argues like a woman. (No dad at home, guess who he learned from-mom-aunts-grammas and contentious ones at that)I also clearly pointed out that blame plays no part in any and every conversation, like "Look at the nose marks on that window" or "how did that table get so dusty" My guess is blame was a club used to generate guilt among other things from the time he was little. My mom was a yeller, but jeez, nothing like that!

As I mentioned, he's never had a job he was really happy with. I have nothing to do with that. So when he says its my fault he is doing this one..... since the day he walked in the door 10 yrs ago he's never looked for another one. So...... I am not faulting his choice, I'm saying he's angry w/me for expressing the opinion that the offered promotion (which he even developed a strategy so they'd offer it to him) was great and it sounded like a good idea. They have breakdowns often and often are short handed cuz guys don't show up. He has relatively new bosses that are addressing those issues (at last, I might add). These headaches are not my fault. I didn't force him to take the job. But he's angry at me. Has to blame it on someone, but the real culprits are his bosses who were slow to see & fix problems. No, I have not pointed this out to him.

I am not picking on him cuz of his health problems, I desperately want him to get himself healthy. It is miserable to be in pain all the time. I am and always have been concerned and unhappy about all the afternoons without his company. Major complaints? I feel that spouses need to take care of themselves and each other so they can enjoy life together as long as possible. Women aren't as bad about neglecting their health, but they can be awful hypochondriacs somethimes. Guys just hate going to the Dr. Needles, costs $$, he'll tell me to quit yadda yadda, he'll make me do yadda yadda. My message has always been, "you go down, you take me with you" Financially, quality of life, no one to play with, and here we are. I've always said I didn't ever want to not be able to run around like a nut and have fun when I wanted to. He derided his obesse mom for sitting in front of the TV all the time. Now it seems like that's what he's trying to achieve (not the obesity part).

He can communicate just fine when he wants to express his feelings and opinions about politics, politicians, crooked elected officials, anyone who isn't Italian, how good the latest plum tomatoes are, how much he likes his SUV, whether the sauce is good or bad, how much he misses his gramma's cooking.....
Clearly, bluntly, offensively, and even diplomatically But sex and intimacy, not on your life.

He knows I love him even if he says I don't. He isn't always defensive and angry. I am trying to strategize. Heck, I was in HR mgmt for 18 yrs. Worked w/some of the worst hotheads you can imagine, but I wasn't married to them. This is harder to do and quite a slap in the face when I'm told "I won't, I'll never, you're crazy, you need to be committed" That's the core and its fear driven. He's afraid to try, afraid he's not able, afraid he won't be himself anymore??

Anyway, I thought about the lack of respect involved in sleeping in the other room. Went to bed in our room last nite. Started dozing off, he came home, poked his head in and asked me if I wanted him to sleep in the other room. Woke me up, dammit. Never did go back to sleep. Eventually started crying again while he snored and clung to the far edge of the bed. Usually he likes to spoon. (thus my teddybear comments)

For fun, I went outside & tried to sleep on the chaise so I could listen to the night bugs before winter kills them. Was chilly and started thinking about the skunks that live under the nabor's shed. Went back in and to spare room. Fell asleep maybe 3:30. Was up & out before he got up. Riding day. Tomorrow is golf. I'm off his back. He has the house to himself. He refuses to talk and I'm still having meltdowns. Marvy. I'm not real sympathetic about the possibility of his feeling picked on. Man or 4 yr old? This is your beloved wife, howling at the moon fit to die!!!!!!

I know it takes a long time & I should have done this years ago before it got this bad. No guts, no glory. I am a fighter, but I don't always have the heart for the fight. I am not referring to 2 people yelling, I mean dealing with the whole life-killing thing. I am a nice person, I don't deserve this.

I appreciate your comments. Keep talkin' to me. I have no brothers to offer insights about man brains. Friend I had who was great for that is retired 2000 mi. away. Not sure I'd tell him about this anyway. Yeah, its embarrasing for mee, too.

[Jayce]

Yes, we need Superman to fly down, grab them by the collars and crack their heads together.

Actually he's a good guy. Wouldn't wish his upbringing on anyone. I understand a lot of what goes on w/resisting change. I know its scary, but on the other hand, I've had so much change thrust on me often scary(not all by him) with little or no warning and no choices at all and I've survived and learned from every one of them. I've also planned, worked toward and achieved changes I needed for myself and anyone who comes in contact with me. Not perfect, but lots better. Is that maturing, or waking up late? So, If a puny, little old blonde woman has the guts to.............well, you see where I'm going with that one.
(Sometimes its fun to play the "dumb blonde thing" and I can be REALLY good at it LOLLOLLOL)
See my response to Bagheers for more. Gotta go shower B4 horse smell makes the dog run away.

[DanceQueen]

To Diane and Jayce both...trust me, we all understand your disappointments and feelings of "why the hell can't he just meet this very simple basic need of mine...I sacrifice all the time, where is his sacrifice?"

We really do understand this and we have all felt that way at one time or another.

Unfortunately, feeling that way and wondering why he doesn't wake up and smell the coffee doesn't do any good for anything. It does not cause any change in him. It does not do any good to just "wish" it were different.

So....if you wish it was different, but you go along doing the same thing...how will it be different?

Nothing is going to change until you both make the first step.

Personally (please don't get mad at me, moderators) I would just throw in the towel and start over with someone else. I know that sounds so sad and sick, but I actually DO KNOW how hard you two are going to have to work, to make this thing work out. And I personally would not be willing to put in that much work.

Dealing with a truly LD or ND spouse can take years, and even after years of effort, it still may not cause any change. Bagheera is one of the lucky ones, because it is working for him.

But sitting there wondering "when the hell is he going to put as much effort into this as I am" will certainly get you no where.

So my feeling is this:

Are you willing to put in even MORE effort than you already have, for up to 1 or 2 more years, AND are you willing to put an ultimatum in place that if he doesn't bring up his end of the effort you will leave him?

If the answer to this is "no", then I would just do whatever I had to do to untangle myself from the situation now. Because otherwise...if you aren't going to do the above....then the situation will stay the same year after year after year, until you finally leave or just resign yourself to a sexless life forever.

So take your time and think about this decision. It is entirely yours to make, not his. This is about you and your life, not him and his life. Yes your decision will affect him, but his inaction has caused you to be forced to make this decision.

If you can accept it and just live with it indefinitely, then you will still need hobbies, counseling and resources to deal with the constant pain and rejection.

And just one more point to you both....I think this may be helpful....

I have a suspicion that possibly both of your husband's have body issues, on top of LD. In other words, a person has a harder time getting it on when they don't feel physically sexy. Usually, it is women who have this problem moreso than men (and women usually have LD more than men as well). But lots of men also are insecure about how they look when they are naked. They will not admit it or talk about it (as with everything else) but they will certainly let it affect whether or not they feel comfortable getting naked with you.

This can be somewhat crippling to a person's sex drive, when they don't feel physically attractive, because its really hard to enjoy yourself if you are worried about your saddle bags (or whatever) looking yucky. And if you think they look yucky on yourself, you assume they look yucky to your partner.

And please don't come back with "well, I have my body issues too but it doesn't stop me". You can't compare apples to oranges, and in this case, you can't compare an HD person's thoughts about this to an LD person's thoughts. An HD person will look past their own body issues or simply leave the lights off, because the importance of sex for them will push them forward. But an LD person will blow up issues in their own mind to help them justify their LD.

Do you think either of your husbands may have a problem in this area? I am asking because, it is possible that maybe offering to leave the lights off would help, if and when you ever do get to have sex. LOL!

As I said in another post, I actually know lots of women who have been or are with LD men. One of my women friends in this position is a lovely 26 year old blonde sweetheart, engaged to a very smart and loving 28 year old law student. They appear to have a great life ahead of them. However...she revealed to me that they rarely have sex and when they do, it is always she who initiates it. Also, he will not try anything new or fun. I cringed when I heard that and very *gently* tried to tell her that if she goes forward and gets married in this case, things will likely never change, and it is going to backfire on her later. She didn't like hearing that, and I know she did listen. Like you two, she is just confused as to "why" a man wouldn't want sex, because ... don't all men want sex?

As I listened to a bit more of her story over time and patched in the pieces...I realized he was one of those guys who is very inexperiened, no real sexual experience to speak of before her. He also has learned to masterbate with porn - - and when you learn this and only this (ie: no actual sex involved), then a man soon also learns the very bad habit of orgasm without sex or intimacy. This also doesn't help PE. And on top of all of that, she revealed that he is insecure about his body...he is out of shape and not a very muscular guy...kinda scrawny but with a tummy. She on the other hand is very sexy and fit.

I almost cried when I got the whole picture, because I can envision her 10-15 years from now, crying herself to sleep yet again because her husband won't have sex with her. I did my best to warn her not to proceed without working on this. I am unsure if she took this advice or not...

I do know that she put her foot down on the porn and he has stopped with that. But that doesn't solve anything else, of course.

Anyway girls...hang in there and keep talking. I hope you don't mind the tough love from me. I am being so black a white about your choice in this because I want you to be realistic, and don't get caught in the trap of "but I have already done all the work, its his turn now" because that literally solves nothing and makes lots of things worse - for you.

DQ