Jayce's thread

[DanceQueen]

I am copying this from "Hello is this thing on" for Jayce...


OK, my 2nd step looks like his needs/wants are sleep, food, wine or beer, TV and apparently "a body" in the room with him and in the bed with him. (a teddy bear or body size pillow would have been cheaper) If sex with that particular body is on the list at all its at the bottom, after yard work, car wash, cat boxes, and whatever else he can think of after the food, nap, alcohol & TV.

This is guesswork based on many years of observation. He refuses to talk about his wants/needs except to tell me either that I need to be committed cuz I want sex more often than every 3 months (or never) and would love to do something other than the same old half hour or less OR to quit bringing up the subject and stop trying to "psychoanalyze me". That's his standard response to any question about his feelings...about any personal or intimate subject. I've read SSW and SSM as well as Getting Through to the Many You Love. Read about low libido & causes, dysfunction and causes. Lots of really medical/scientific stuff. Got the Big T checked, not bad but not real impressive either. In process of other physical checking. Lots of conversation & bawling my head off. Once in awhile I get lucky. Very rarely will he initiate, then its after I'm so upset getting turned on is impossible. I truly believe he has no clue why I'm not waramed up. He gives no consistent signals, doesn't commit to a plan for later, just goes about being his usual enigmatic self. (He's Sicilian-American, is that Omerta at its worst?)I think he just loves being in the catbird seat & controlling what I get from him & what I don't. He says not, but how else to describe my feelings to him? He has steadfastly refused to read ANY books. Of ANY kind. I know he can't relate to my feelings cuz he doesn't care. I'm not sure he ever did. Was never a sex maniac by any means. His 2 brothers were notorious cock hounds, one while he was married! The medical issues that caused signs of dysfunction are fixable and partly fixed so far, but the lack of libido hasn't changed as far as I can tell.

I think as he's aged, he just wanted to avoid the whole thing especially if it meant talking to the Dr. Embarassing? Man up! How can a "loving husband" arbitrarily decide MY sex life ie over cuz he's not willing to learn anything new, change, get treatment? How fair is that?

If there is some guy out there whose wife is sex starved & bugging him, please tell my what the heck is going on in your head? I'll never find out from my guy if he won't talk. Help me to understand, please.

Me-66
H-60
m 29 yrs
all got worse june '08
divorce not an option
Don't you dare laugh about our ages! Comin' to you like a fast freight train. Guess I shouldn't have tried to stay healthy and able.

[DanceQueen]

Hi Jayce....I am not sure what this means: "OK, my 2nd step looks like his needs/wants are sleep, food, wine or beer, TV and apparently "a body" in the room with him and in the bed with him."

Without any introduction or anything, I'm not sure what kind of advice you are seeking, so can you please start over with an intro and tell us what you hope to gain by getting feedback? You may have felt that you were clear on this in your post, but since you posted on a different thread kind of in the middle of someone in a similar position posting, I think yours is going to get lost unless we start over here.

Is that ok with you?

DQ

[Bagheera]

Previously posted on DQ's poor hijacked thread:

OK, my 2nd step looks like his needs/wants are sleep, food, wine or beer, TV and apparently "a body" in the room with him and in the bed with him.

Perhaps I should have clarified more in that post, but when I was talking about "needs," I was really referring to relationship needs: ways in which you and your spouse feel loved (love needs), ways in which you and your spouse are turned on sexually by each other (sex needs).

For a discussion of "love needs," I refer folks to read John Gray's Men are Mars, Women are from Venus. In a nutshell, women tend to feel loved when they feel respected, supported (cared for), and most of all CHERISHED by their husband. Men tend to feel loved when they feel appreciated, accepted (unconditionally), and most of all ADMIRED by their wife.

For a discussion of "sex needs," I refer folks to read Barbara and Gary Rosberg's The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women. A lot of this has to do with maintaining a high level of emotinal intimacy in the relationship: sharing feelings & emotions, connecting as best friends, affirming your love and attraction to each other -- these are the things that women generally desire more of from their husband. To that add a strong layer of physical inimacy: non-sexual touch, sexual playfulness and shows of affection, initiation of sex by both partners, and responsiveness and attentiveness to each other in the bedroom -- these are the things that men generally desire more of from their wives.

The main point is that men and women have very different (but often complimentary) needs in a relationship. You cannot treat your spouse in the way that YOU would want to be treated and expect them to be happy -- it doesn't work. For example, while a woman can feel loved by her husband if he does things around the house, helps with cooking and cleaning, helps out with the kids, does the yard-work, and so on, this does not work for a man. He feels "mothered," but not LOVED in the heart-to-heart romantic sense. So yes, he may appreciate the 'motherly love' that you show for him in caring for him, he won't feel loved in the same way that you would by those actions.

As I said above, men feel loved when then feel needed. Appreciated. Accepted for who they are (without conditions), and most of all Admired. So I would ask you ladies:

* when was the last time you complimented his looks or some personality trait?

* when was the last time you expressed appreciation for something that he did for you, -without- pointing out how he could have done it better.

In the same way that women tend to thrive on expressions of Affirmation, men tend to thrive on expressions of Appreciation. It may feel awkward for a man to regularly affirm how lovely, sexy, capable, etc. his wife is to him, but she needs to hear it. It may likewise feel awkward for a woman to regularly express her appreciation for the support and caring she gets from her husband, but he needs to hear it, also.

Give it a try,

-- B.

[Jayce]

"A lot of this has to do with maintaining a high level of emotinal intimacy in the relationship: sharing feelings & emotions, connecting as best friends, affirming your love and attraction to each other"

That's what I meant with the Omerta thing. He will never tell me how he feels about sex in general. What he likes/wants in bed. Will not talk afterward about enjoyment or satisfaction. May ask me "did you have fun" the next a.m. which refers to orgasm only. If I ask similar ques. I get "whaddya think?" Tends to be almost completely silent during sex & orgasm. Very little clues for me as far as what's good, better, or bad. That's why I asked the question of guys out there w/LD, what the heck is going through your minds????? Maybe you don't tell your wife, either, but I'm a stranger & it might help me understand my H better & your partner won't know. Besides, maybe if you tell someone, you'll realize what you are thinking when you see what you've written or hear yourself say it. 2-way win.

H does not share other emotions either, other than anger or frustration with job or projects. We've been together a long time & I've figured out a lot just by things he does or says consistently in specific situations. He fits the ex-cop in "Midnight Express", he only expresses 2 emotions, silence & anger. OK, not always, but pretty much never in any kind of real intimate situation. I feel this is a kind of cheating of me and our relationship in that he withholds and will not share. I get the cave thing and all, and I know he has mixed emotions about women in general (knowing his mother, cousins & aunts) but I'm a pretty low maintenance woman. Career, education, friends, hobbies, good sport, sense of humor, can change a tire LOL. I don't demand a lot of being waited on, deferred to, "candy & flowers", am far from helpless - except I can't do intimacy, playmate, fun, sharing, sex by myself. Told him a long time ago I didn't marry for financial support, handyman stuff, etc. but for partner w/emotional connection. The one thing he refuses to even try to give. Saying he loves me sounds kinda empty.

So, in addition to frustration, hurt and rejection, I'm feeling grief for the loss of what I've always felt is a huge part of a marriage and mutual fun, enjoyment, and affirmation of loving and wanting to pleasure one's partner. Lack of frequency isn't the only problem we have. I have??

As you can see, my ability to communicate clearly is not a problem. I HAVE told him I need him, I HAVE compimented his appearance, hygiene, cute tush, nice legs, care of the house & yard, willingness to cook, do cat boxes, waxing my truck and whatever else is going on. I don't gripe when he goes out of town alone for several days to visit his brother. The full week of sun, sand and ocean in Mexico w/no sex at all - and the 4 days in Vegas w/no sex, either - I cried about that a lot when I talked to him about it. More than once. He just looked at me like I'm some kind of alien. No response, no reason, and of course, no empathy. If he doesn't care, why do I? He backed off on counseling when I told him the counselor wouldn't tell me I'm nuts.

Cave, shmave. I'm ready to hit the mule in the head with a board. Please, someone, tell me what's driving his thinking? If you're a LD guy & refuse to even compromise w/your partner, tell me why.

[DanceQueen]

Jayce....in your title thread you said "all got worse june '08" and also "divorce not an option". Can you explain what these two things mean? Is there some catalyst to why it "all got worse" recently? And as far as divorce, why is it not an option if you dont mind me asking? I am not going to try to change your mind, I am just curious as to the reason.

As for LD men - you aren't going to find any posting on this forum.

LD men don't go out seeking a reason to their "problem". LD men typically ignore that there is any problem at all and project all the blame elsewhere, typically onto their wives for being "hypersexual" or some other adjective that they try to use to explain why it is not their problem.

Have you read Diane's thread? There may be some nuggets of wisdom on there for you, too.

Was your H ever in your marriage a better lover toward you? In the beginning maybe? Were either of you ever married before? If so, do you have any clue as to his sex life before you? Also, do you know if your H masterbates, how often, and does he use porn? (I have to ask this one - there is a reason for asking...hope it doesn't insult you).

We are here to help, but we will need more info to really help in a lasting way.

DQ

[Bagheera]

Alright Jayce,

Here is an excellent reference for you, that our couples/sex therapist recommended to me:

The New Male Sexuality, by Bernie Zilbergeld.

This is an excellent text describing the male mind and body with regard to relations between the sexes, feelings, emotions, sexual activities, and sexual problems. There are also chapters which specifically outline exercises for problems such as erection dysfunction and premature ejactulation.

And for you Jayce, a chapter on men's general lack of connection with the own emotions, and their ability to express them to their perplexed women.

I hope you find it helpful,

-- B.

[Jayce]

DQ, sorry about the hijacking. I replied to Bagheera in, probably, too much detail. I just don't get how a LD guy thinks. I know about psych stuff & performance anxiety stuff and anger toward partner stuff. Read a ton of books in last couple months. Sorted through causes, behaviors, etc. but cant' figure out, in absence of psych problems, and physical reasons, what is going thru their heads, if anything? If you say you love your wife, why wouldn't you make some effort to help her understand your feelings and reach a compromise about frequency and doing the initiating some of the time? Why would you leave her kinda spinning in the wind? Why would you continue to cause hurt rather than try not to?

SSW describes me. SSM describes us. SSM tells the LD partner they really need to make some changes and address the problem. He'll neve know. He won't read the books.

We've both been married before. H for less than 2 yrs when she had affair & they divorced. I'm guessing he's always been LD. My ex was a typical sex maniac early on until he became obsessed with a hobby that took up all his time and attention. He wasn't even involved with the kids after awhile. Found something more interesting than family, wife...even quit smoking to save $$ for the hobby. 5 yrs of that...the last 2 I gave up & quit trying to get thru to him. When I told him I wanted out, he was thunderstruck. Thought we were getting along better cuz of no fights for 2 yrs. Duuuuuhhhhhh. Just like in the books. But that time I knew what was wrong. This time..... Maybe its my early cultural exposure (sarcasm) the only LD problems I ever heard were from guys griping about their wives. I believed guys liked wives who enjoyed an active sex life. Silly me.

[Jayce]

Thanks, the lack of connection chapter might help. The other stuff I've read in probably 8 books including a textbook for counselors. That's fixable. Been to Dr. (not happy, but went)and that's improving. The LD's the same.

[DanceQueen]

Jayce...don't worry at all about hi=jacking that thread...I only reposted this one for you because you will get more answers this way.

What about the other question....do you know if he masterbates and does he use porn? The reason I am asking this is that, when a man doesn't want to have sex with his woman but IS using porn and masterbating regularly, then that is one type of issue....whereas if he doesn't want sex with his woman and also does NOT masterbate, that is a different type of problem.

Jayce, I don't know why, but I have had a LOT of female friends who have been with guys who are LD....so I personally do know that this occurs fairly frequently. Its just that in society, women don't want to feel the shame of not being wanted by their man and men don't want to feel the shame of not being a sex god....so no one talks about it openly. And even if they do talk about it openly, usually the average male response is to shame them even further.

Here is a case in point...the magazine Men's Health has an online message board like this one. There is a section for "married life" over there. The average poster over there is a different sort of person than over here....meaning, they are mostly bitter men who don't have a life...they are not there to learn or grow, but only to do some ball busting (strangest male behavior I have ever observed) and for some non-heavy chatting with strangers. Once in a while, someone comes along there with an actual problem and mistakes that website for a more supportive one, like this. So someone will post their marriage or relationship issue...but the responses will be very curt and basically just "suck it up and be a man" type of thing.

I have seen on that board, several times in the past couple of years, a woman posting...many times a very young woman...who is saying "I don't know what's wrong with my husband, he doesn't want to have sex...I never knew that any man would not want sex, what is wrong with him?" Every time, the answer is something like this:

*He is gay
*He is having an affair
*or...its because you are fat

My point in telling you this is...the above is how other men will react toward hearing about a man who has no sex drive. Get the picture? Therefore, how can any man who has little to no sex drive even TALK about this or express it to anyone, ever? Men already know that other men are going to shame them and call them gay if they don't want sex...so they say and do nothing, pretend the problem doesn't exist, and bury their heads. They will not acknowledge that there is anything going on at all.

Now, this is not meant to be down on you, but in your last post you said: "I believed guys liked wives who enjoyed an active sex life. Silly me."

Can you see how you also have been shaped by society to believe this? And therefore, you also are seeing your husband as if there is "something wrong with him".

How can he come up against that? He doesn't feel there is anything wrong with him he just has no sex drive. But he knows that you and the rest of the world are going to tell him there is something wrong with him. Therefore, in the face of this very harsh message toward him from you and from the world, how is he supposed to come straight out with it and talk about it? To him it seems that no one is going to say "oh wow, well this is probably some small issue that can be easily fixed." Instead, he knows that people are going to say "what the hell is wrong with you, are you gay?" How can he feel safe to talk about this problem when the entire world tells him he is wrong, gay, or a freak, just because he has LD?

In my experience with my friends who have been with LD guys, they have always made the mistake of crying and screaming at their guy "don't you love me? Is it because you are gay? What is wrong with you?" This - for obvious reasons - never resulted in their man doing anything except retreating further.

Men in general do not seek out ways to improve themselves. Instead, they tell themselves they are just fine the way they are and if the rest of the world doesn't like it, they can go to hell. This is just a general observation...the men on this forum are a cut above...they are working on themselves and their marriages and trying to become better husbands.

Your husband - more than you think - is a typical case of a LD man. This is not something that is easily fixed. And NO he doesn't realize the pain and rejection you are feeling, because he is LD...he doesn't feel the loss of sex nor the rejection. He cannot understand your side of the issue.

But this is exactly the same for LD women, as the HD men here will tell you. Their wives have no idea how much they are hurting them....they have no clue how desperate and sad and lonely their husbands have been. They do not see it is a problem at all...they bury their heads.

DQ

[Jayce]

My experience is that a divorce sets you back 10 years financially. At our age, just really dumb. We'd both probably be impovershed in our old age. Living w/my kids is NOT for me! I don't particularly want to live alone in the future nor do I want to go from the frying pan into the fire. Guys my age tend to be paternalistic squares if not visibly, the 50's are still under there somewhere. (My ex is like that but 2nd wife loves it)

I just replied w/past spouse info. Don't want to take up more space.

I guess I was hoping that some LD guy(s) who are or don't want to divorce might be on here somewhere and have something to say, like "She doesn't understand that I ....... whatever"

Last Dec. H told me he had no libido whatsoever and didn't care. Had 2 scripts for BP, one a beta blocker. Quit that one. Month or so later he noticed a woman who was kinda falling out of her low top & bra lace showed. Said he'd not even been noticing that stuff for a long time, couldn't recall when it started. That "reawakenkng" or whatever it was either didn't last or improve. Had physical in Feb. didn't tell Dr. anything except got OK to quit beta blocker. (had heart attack in '01, no probs since).

By June, ED became more noticeable & frequent. (keep in mind "frequent" means once or twice a month if I beg a lot) A lifetime smoker, he quit cigs some time ago & switched to a couple cigars a day saying he didn't inhale. Nicotine damages small blood vessels no matter how it gets into bloodstream. And we know what wrecked circulaton does to a guy's ability. I went to libe & on line-you don't have time to read the titles of all the books or the websites (I'm an exercise physiologist so the scientific stuff's not a problem-already knew a lot of it). Pretty depressing. Came across SSW. Left it out, he ignored it. Still refuses to read anything.

So I blew up. Raised hell. So far he's gotten ED scripts. Would rather not use them but will if I ask. Lack of nicotine for 2 mo. I think is helping also. Had the Big T tested-normal but not real high. After roof raising tantrum on his part, he went for sleep test. Does have apnea (I knew that) which lowers Oxygen level in blood, wakes you up makes you tired. Also read it kills libido. So-next step is to do sleep test w/the mask on to see if it'll help. IF it does and IF he'll wear it.......it might help the libido. I've known him since he was 30 & am sure he's had apnea the whole time.

If the apnea treatment doesn't improve his libido, I'm out of ideas. Dr. said next step is urologist if ED scripts didn't work. But they do. Most Dr.s aren't in favor of treating w/testosterone cuz of the possible effects on prostate & other scary stuff. I guess getting him to the stage where he at least cares a little bit about having no libido and my feelings, at least enough to go to Dr, is progress. It cost me a lot in stress, fights, absorbing his yelling, etc. but I HAVE thanked and complimented him for doing it!!!!

Meanwhile, I spend weekends w/my fingers crossed & try not to get my hopes up. Once in awhile I get lucky. Usually I get disappointed. If its especially bad & I cry (was raised NOT to be a crybaby, painful to become one)he may initiate later or the next day. Of course I'm so far from turned on by that time....besides how can you get turned on when you know its just a charity job? Does he get this?? Nope, of course not. And not being turned on would be my fault, of course.

Doesn't have porn around. Not on line either. Years ago used to have Penthouse, etc. Don't think he masturbates, but if so, he could have realized the ED starting/worsening and decided to quit trying w/me hoping it'd all go away since "we're old". If he does, he would never admit it. He know how cheated I'd feel and rejected and insulted and all of that.

Got him a Penthouse at Christmas & he hardly looked at it. Got a couple videos for couples that sorta work. He could be one of those people who don't desire much, but if you get them started they enjoy it. He'd not tell me that either.

From all this venting,you probably guess, this was not one of the weekends I got lucky. He just goes along talking pleasantly of anything else like the nabors kids or the trash collection. Determined to act happy like everything's fine. (Reminds me of a guy who was doing that just B4 he dumped me.)Not even tippytoeing around cuz he knows how bad I feel & hopes I won't bring it up. Kind of whistling while he walks thru a dark alley.

As I mentioned in the other reply, I'm ready to hit the mule in the head with a board. Out of ideas. All this drama has wrecked a really nice summer.