Soaking up this pain to protect your kids from divorce is something you can always be proud of, you'll know inside when you've truly done all you should.
I see your bind. It's clear as glass that she's had/having affairs, but she won't admit it and you want to put something so undeniable on the table so that she can't deny it. You could then escape in some direction from the current situation which has got to be nigh on unbearable for you.
Maybe there is another way to escape from it. I guess at the moment you are acting a bit as if there isn't an affair. How about trying acting as if there is, without actually saying anything about it. How about just pulling right back. Don't see any point in trying to build bridges to her when she is having affairs. Concentrate 100% on doing stuff for you and your kids. You just need to be civil when you see her, like you would be civil with a neighbour, that and no more. Try it for a few weeks see if you get any small changes. Maybe with a bit of time you might feel a bit of respect gradually creep back into your relationship all be it at a very basic 'neighbours' level.
I think problem for a lot of us that have got to this stage of separation is that trust and respect has completely gone, the relationship is destroyed but we hang on to it's ghost because it just takes time to realign yourself to such a massive change in your life. Once you've had the time you need to realign, the ghost melts away and I think you start to see you really have to start from scratch and the foundation is trust and respect. You can't take a step further forward till have that.
Maybe there is another way to escape from it. I guess at the moment you are acting a bit as if there isn't an affair. How about trying acting as if there is . . .
I agree with this, except I WOULD say something. The next time she tells you something you KNOW is a lie, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "STOP IT. We both know that's a lie, and it's incredibly disrespectful that you keep looking me in the eye and lying to me. If you choose to have an affair, you're a grown woman and I can't stop you, but please stop lying to me about it. It insults my intelligence."
If she asks you how you know, do NOT reveal the source of your intel -- just say "we both know it's true," and leave it at that.
The disrespect of daily deceit destroys self-confidence -- especially for a man, I believe. If you can't stop her adultery, I suggest you try to get her to at least stop her DECEIT. It took me two months of continued effort, and then it even took a final, HARD re-confrontation in which I had to actually PLAY THE AUDIO for my wife to get her to admit it, but I made sure that she at least stopped lying to me, her parents, and our adult daughters about her affair.
Then there are the text messages. My wife ending a text to OM2 with "Love u" or a text "lunchtime took more out of me than I realized, not complaining can't wait to cya".
Texts from W to OM1:"I had a fab time last nt and this a.m! Can't stop :)ing... Thank you babe"
OM1 to W "hope 2 hold u soon..." "Thx for your sweet note and another amazing night."
That's not all, but, you get the idea.
There is really no doubt in my mind that she is screwing around with these two. If I asked her why she isn't sleeping in her bed, she would just say that she gets together with friends and she either fell asleep on the couch, or she had too much to drink and didn't want to risk another DUI by driving etc. I've had this conversation too many times about things that seem obviously wrong and yet she twists it around so that I'm wrong.
I don't want to have that conversation again. I want to have hard proof so that when she starts to say that they are just friends, I can with confidence tell her to cut the sh*t.
Dan
Dan, How much more concrete do you need to get? "lunchtime took more out of me than I realized, not complaining can't wait to cya" Is there really any other way to interpret this??? Spare yourself the additional pain and money and forget about the PI. Having been BTDT, I had plenty of circumstantial evidence and everyone around me convinced of what I didn't want to bring myself to believe and what W wouldn't admit to. I continued snooping until I found (short of walking in on them together) the holy grail of proof. Painful is an understatement, and I wish that I had never uncovered what I did. The words I read still haunt me. As I write this, I struggle with advice because I can understand how you're feeling. You ask your W a question that you already know the answer to you get a lame excuse or accusations.
What I'm trying to say is that you know that she is having an affair(s), so the question is are you willing to continue trying to save the marriage or is this a deal breaker? If you want to save the marriage... STOP snooping!! Knowing more will make things that much more difficult.
I know exactly how you feel about protecting your kids. I admire your committment to keeping your family together. It )leaving) is not an easy decision to make. I agree with everyone above, you have all the evidence you need. The question is what are you going to do with it? I am a little reluctant to give my opinion here because I know you are in a fragile position right now and the last thing i want to do is bring you down. From what I have read of your sitch, it is obvious that your W has lost respect for you. It seems to me that you are in serious denial. Whether the fact that your W is seeing two men is a deal breaker for you or not, I think you need to put some serious distance between you and your W. It will do you a world of good and may even shcok your wife a little (even though that is not neccesarily what you want). Again Dan, my goal here is not to smack you with a 2X4 but rather to try to give you my point of view. With the little infromation we have here, something needs to change.
Everyone, thank you for your input. I appreciate it.
WAWed, I like your metaphor of hanging onto the ghost of a relationship. That's a good way of looking at it. The current situation is unbearable, not because I can't bear her infidelity, but, because of the incessant lying and because I'm stuck in limbo, unable to move forward.
HFF, I'm sorry that you had to go through this. Frankly, I'm past the pain and hurt and confirming evidence couldn't cause me any more pain than I've been through so far. You ask if I'm willing to continue trying to save the marriage. That is an excellent question.
John210, I've been following your thread since moving over to Separated. I really don't feel in a fragile position and I don't know that I'm in denial. Is her infidelity a deal breaker? That's another excellent question.
There is much more to the story. In July last year, my W the SAHM took a couple of days in the mountains for a break from the kids. Shortly after getting back, I suggested that she take Tuesday nights off and I'd watch the kids. Soon, she was going to the local dive bar where she met her new buddy. Things with her new buddy were high drama. He was a crack addict and being involved with him even as a friend resulted in W calling 911 after his threat to kill himself. That resulted in 3 jurisdictions of police and the swat team out to deal with him. W called the cops as he was breaking the restraining order put in place by buddy's cousin and when her self-proclaimed violent buddy getting out of jail with no money, no job, no place to stay, no truck and no Harley. W spent some nights in a hotel while I spent nights with the shotgun at hand.
Don't misunderstand, looking back I can see how screwed up my actions were in all of this. During this time, I was trying to negotiate acceptable limits to her bad behavior. She would agree to be home by 2300 and then would have a good reason why she wasn't or would get home at 2315. Pretty soon, we both gave up the pretense of her coming home before the bar closed and then sometimes it wouldn't be until 0400 and then there were a couple times she went to parties on a Tuesday night and didn't get home until 0600. Over St. Patrick's day weekend, she fell and broke her collar bone in two places because she was out walking someone's dog in the dark at 0300 and had been drinking. Then, in April the week before she moved out, I busted her on going over to some guy she met at the bar's house and making out with him. This being discovered via e-mails. Things have been very surreal.
Sitting up week after week wondering what she was up to and if she was going to be home finally started to force my growth. I put up with all of this because my self-worth was dependent upon her. That's why I put up with all that's happened and why I've put up with the current situation. It's only been a couple of weeks since I finally grew up and my self-worth is now in no way dependent upon her or what she does or what she thinks about me. But, until that change happened, I experienced all kinds of pain and hurt and I think I'm done with that. Now, I'm more pissed off than hurt and I'm mostly pissed off about her lying to my face, not having the guts to divorce me, not having the guts to tell me that my efforts at saving this marriage were a wasted effort, not respecting me enough to wait until a filing, not having the common decency to cut me loose so I can move on with life too. No, I'm not hurting much, I'm angry.
Now, is her infidelity a deal breaker and am I willing to work on this marriage? Her infidelity is not a deal breaker in the sense that if I had incontrovertible proof, I would feel forced to end our marriage. I could forgive her and learn to trust her again and live happily with her the rest of my days. I am willing to work on a new relationship with her. However, all of this is contingent upon her moving back into the family home, getting into IC that I am part of directing as she deludes herself about many things, MC, a new cell number, complete transparency to me and no further contact with anyone that she has met in the last year. If she is willing to do these things, then I can forgive her for everything and we could move forward in life together. I don't hold out much hope for that outcome. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that I think that the probability of it happening is roughly the same as winning powerball.
I've been wanting to have a frank honest truthful conversation with her since I've been able to look at this information without twisting it around to be what it isn't, and I don't want to have a conversation where she sits there and denies what I know is true and tries to turn everything around and tell me that I'm crazy and wrong etc. I'm tired of being in limbo. Persistence has carried the day for me many times in life, and I'm willing to continue working on things. However, we've reached a crossroads. In the past, according to my W, the problem was me. I've changed and grown and become a new man and yet she still insists that the problem is me.
That's a lot of history there. Bottom line, I'm feeling the need to have a truthful heart to heart conversation and I'm afraid that I might need the hard proof to force such a conversation. Of course, there is still no assurance of an honest conversation even with proof which is yet one more uncertainty that I need to bring to a resolution.
I appreciate everyone's input. I will think on these things.
I've not read your whole sitch, but I've read up on this post, and I wanted to share a little of how I handled things in my sitch.
My H has been having a EA/PA for at least a year with OW from work. I knew about, and I asked about it, and he denied it, and I found another TM, and I asked about it, and he denied it, and so on and so on and so on. He moved out the 1st of August, and I got a call from a mutual friend who confirmed my suspicions...but, I knew without that confirmation. Just like you know without the pictures!
So, I went to his office. I asked to talk to him outside, and I said, "I'm thinking of seeing the attorney, and the tone of that meeting will be set by the convo. we have right now. I know you are a having PA with OW, and you can continue to lie about it and the meeting with the attorney can go badly for you or you can fess up, and we can try to get through this civilly."
Well, he fessed up. He was so sure I knew that he couldn't continue to lie. He thought I'd hired a PI, and he even asked what proof I had. My response, "It doesn't matter...we can suffice it to say that I have enough proof to know that it's been going on for some time, that it's physical, and that you've been lying."
To this day (six weeks later) he still doesn't know I didn't hire the PI. And, by the way, I've still not filed for D. I did consult the attorney, but that's all I've done, and all I intend to do for now. I have children with this man, and we had what I thought was a good marriage. It's a lot to walk away from, and, at this point I'm just going to give it some more time. I've picked a date at which point I will reevaluate whether I should proceed with the D or continue to wait it out (working on me and praying he'll come around). That helps some...to have a future date identified. It takes the day to day pressure off the decision away. You don't have to think about it daily because you don't have to decide until said date.
At any rate, if you can bluff well, you can claim to have evidence that you don't for the confrontation. If you are calm and confident about it and tell her you know already rather than asking her about it, you might be able to get her to confess. Then, once it's out in the open, you can decide how you will deal with it. And, she'll have to deal differently as well...she can't just continue to try to hide it from you.
I think the pulling back from her is a good idea. Especially once she knows that you know. I've not done that well (actually, I didn't do it at all for the first few weeks), and my H has been "cake eating." I'm starting to pull back some now...it's been hard, but I think it's the only way he'll know that he can't continue to have what he has with me (the friendship, the "family," the support) and have what he has with her (whatever that is!). He can't continue to disrespect me that way.
I'll be watching your thread for updates! I wish you the very best. The kids are worth a little extra pain...isn't that what parenting is all about...taking the extra pain in an effort to protect them from worse???
Best wishes! Amy
Me 39 H 36 S 7 S 4 T 15 M 12 H out 8/1/08 OW confirmed 8/6/08 D final on 6/12/09...I'm doing good!
Again I don't want to harp on the subject of your denial but with what I read this morning, how much more proof do you need? Did I misread something? Whatever it is that you need to do, do it, if it is nothing, that is fine also......but please stop saying that you need hard evidence. Perhaps you should start by saying, ok my W has one or two Oms on the side...where do i go from here? If you want to turn this around, what steps are you taking to reach that goal? Just curious....it seems to me that you are letting the waves transport you where they may. believe me, I know the feeling. Good luck to you Dan.
I've not read your whole sitch, but I've read up on this post, and I wanted to share a little of how I handled things in my sitch.
My H has been having a EA/PA for at least a year with OW from work. I knew about, and I asked about it, and he denied it, and I found another TM, and I asked about it, and he denied it, and so on and so on and so on. He moved out the 1st of August, and I got a call from a mutual friend who confirmed my suspicions...but, I knew without that confirmation. Just like you know without the pictures!
So, I went to his office. I asked to talk to him outside, and I said, "I'm thinking of seeing the attorney, and the tone of that meeting will be set by the convo. we have right now. I know you are a having PA with OW, and you can continue to lie about it and the meeting with the attorney can go badly for you or you can fess up, and we can try to get through this civilly."
Well, he fessed up. He was so sure I knew that he couldn't continue to lie. He thought I'd hired a PI, and he even asked what proof I had. My response, "It doesn't matter...we can suffice it to say that I have enough proof to know that it's been going on for some time, that it's physical, and that you've been lying."
To this day (six weeks later) he still doesn't know I didn't hire the PI. And, by the way, I've still not filed for D. I did consult the attorney, but that's all I've done, and all I intend to do for now. I have children with this man, and we had what I thought was a good marriage. It's a lot to walk away from, and, at this point I'm just going to give it some more time. I've picked a date at which point I will reevaluate whether I should proceed with the D or continue to wait it out (working on me and praying he'll come around). That helps some...to have a future date identified. It takes the day to day pressure off the decision away. You don't have to think about it daily because you don't have to decide until said date.
At any rate, if you can bluff well, you can claim to have evidence that you don't for the confrontation. If you are calm and confident about it and tell her you know already rather than asking her about it, you might be able to get her to confess. Then, once it's out in the open, you can decide how you will deal with it. And, she'll have to deal differently as well...she can't just continue to try to hide it from you.
Dan,
This is PRECISELY what I was trying to get at. One of the benefits of good intel is that the wayward person doesn't know what you know, and they also don't know what you DON'T know. When I re-confronted my wife at the 60-day mark, I actually brought a 9 x 12" yellow clasped envelope with me, filled with nothing but some old bank statements!!! I held it on my lap and patted it while I talked with my wife about knowing for a fact what she was doing, and "having proof that everything I'm saying is true." And I gave her exactly five minutes to decide to start telling our daughters, and her parents, the truth and STOP lying about ME, or I would show them all my proof.
We drove directly from there to talk to her parents, and she told them the truth, and she told our daughters that weekend. It took another month for the affair to end, but make no mistake: that night was the BEGINNING of the end, as the fantasy and the deceit were forever shattered.
Quote:
So, I went to his office. I asked to talk to him outside, and I said, "I'm thinking of seeing the attorney, and the tone of that meeting will be set by the convo. we have right now. I know you are a having PA with OW, and you can continue to lie about it and the meeting with the attorney can go badly for you or you can fess up, and we can try to get through this civilly."
Thanks a lot Amy. Certainly the kids are worth the extra. Because W lives elsewhere, I don't really have much contact with her beyond the nightly call to talk to the kids. For some time, I've been dim. I don't ask her about what she's doing and I certainly don't share with her what I've been doing. For example, I've gone out with friend or by myself one day every weekend for the past two or three months, but, I haven't said a word to her. She may suspect because the kids will tell her that Grandma came and spent the night, or that we went to see Grandma and spent the night, but, I don't say anything. I've had job interviews that I haven't said anything about. One of the things that is tough right now is that she is receiving a decent amount of financial support from me as her job doesn't come close to supporting her. She pays for rent, utilities, food, and gas and I basically cover everything else, the car payment and insurance and health insurance and cell phone etc. I go back and forth on this one. I believe what I'm spending now is much less than I will pay in maintenance and child support, but, it does feel like I'm supporting my own back-stabbing.
I will definitely give some consideration to the bluff you ran and see if I can pull off a similar feat.
can't wait to cya".