Please help me to not give up............

[GFI]

I just wonder if I'm missing an important part of the DB thing, about showing strength and dignity.

Hi there Grant - I should say, from your posts, that you are showing an enormous amount of strength and dignity - you may feel like you're not showing it directly to your W, but you certainly are here - and I would venture that that must come through - leak if you will to your W - if not perhaps you might consider if you feel differently when you articulate your feelings on this board to when you interact with your W and think of ways of levelling things out a bit.

On this board, your posts come across with an incredible amount of insight, love and respect for you W.

How is it that she sees you? Do you think?

I can relate to your feelings of despair and frustration resulting from taking the friendship route - in many respects, given the pain we're in its far easier to simply adopt an antagonistic and hateful attitude - this panders to our raw emotion and offers a salve to it. IMO, to try to position ourselves as friends is counter to our primeval instincts and so wonder we are conflicted - up and down... However, there are plenty of people in favour of this route, myself included at the present time.

KBO - GFI

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Hi Grant,

What I will give you is my opinion only, based upon reading your thread, on my own experience, and on my experience dealing with people on these boards. The problem with the internet is that things can come across as blunt and impersonal, and I don't intend to be curt, but I see you hurting and I do think time is of the essence as the longer the infidelity goes on, the more you're losing your love for her.

I have some difficulty reconciling myself to the fact that my W is in another relationship, and that we are still married. You will know from my posts, that I have been recently trying to follow a path of friendship to help counteract some of the negative feelings that she has toward me.

The reason you're having difficulty reconciling your wife's affair is because it's morally and ethically WRONG, and it violates your own code of personal integrity. I would worry about you if it DIDN'T bother you. I personally do not believe it is either effective, or advisable, for a betrayed spouse to try and be their wayward spouse's "friend" while they are still actively involved in an affair. At its simplest, it rewards their bad behavior, which in and of itself is basic "stimulus-and-response" stuff that won't work -- she cheats, you reward her with your friendship. But it also damages YOUR self-esteem. Part of my more aggressive approach with affairs is out of concern for the betrayed spouse's self-esteem and self-worth. Men, especially, feel emasculated, and the long-term damage to their own emotional and physchological well-being HAS to be factored in to what approach you decide to take, in my opinion.

I also know for a fact that women don't find the passive, "be their friend" approach attractive, so ironically, it can actually HURT your efforts to attract her back to you.

Although I'm trying to think positively, I have had the most dramatic reactions from her in the past when I have in some way, confronted her about her behaviour.

Excellent. There's a good clue for you then.

I said a few months ago that I was not happy to give her the "time and space" tthat she needed, if she was going to fill that time with another R.

I was very non confrontational but strong then.

But of course, she's continued along that path, and I'm still giving her "time and space" et al, and sometimes feel like I'm just giving her A my okay in some way.

Here is the crux of the problem you're having. A boundary is no boundary at all, if -- when crossed -- is not met with clear consequences. You SAID you weren't OK with it, but your ACTIONS have been that you are okay with it. She is therefore continuing on in her behavior, feeling you've given her your tacit approval.

I have misgivings that I am simply enabling her to live her life like nothing has changed, except the fact that she has no responsibilty or commitment to me as a partner or husband. She is in our house, with our kids, and gets all her needs from her A.

Yep. BINGO. I'm sure she's very pleased with the arrangement, and she has very little reason (other than your inner disapproval) to change, and she WON'T change as long as this is the offer. Furthermore, as stated above, rather than "score you points" for being the good, non-confrontational husband, she is likely LOSING respect -- and even love -- for you the longer this is allowed to go on. I know that sucks to hear, but it's true. Women, in particular, have a hard time loving a man they do not respect -- it's a key component. And they do not respect weakness.

Let me ask you a key question: what was your personality style in the marriage, PRE-affair? Were you a strong, dominant, perhaps even controlling person, or did you tend to be a pleaser, rescuer, and more passive? There's a reason I'm asking this.

I guess I felt that I had no choice but to accept the way things were, because I felt pretty much entirely responsible for the fact she had ended our marriage.(Rightly or wrongly). So I didn't feel I had any right to ask her to do or not do anything.

This is WRONG. Totally undertandable, but wrong. Just because you have had failings in the relationship in the past, doesn't mean you forever lose any moral authority over it going forward. If a parent smoked pot when they were younger, does that mean they can't counsel their kids against using illegal drugs? Or can you find a way to say "Look, I made some foolish mistakes myself in the past, but I love you very much and I don't want to see you make those same mistakes"?? I think IC can help you in this area. This (dealing with infidelity and the potential end of a marriage) is going to be the biggest challenge you've ever faced in your life. You quite simply WON'T be able to do it if you completely concede your own moral authority to your wife, regardless of your past trangressions.

The only real boundary that I have tried to set, is that she doesn't talk to me about OM.

And that WORKED, too, didn't it. Immediately. Hmmmm . . .

Am I being a wuss here? Do I feel like a doormat?........ a bit.

Forget what anyone ELSE thinks the answer to this is. What do YOU feel like? How does it make YOU feel when you are unable to lay out and enforce boundaries? How does her continued disrespect make you feel and act? Are you able to remain loving and detached, knowing that your loving detachment is part of some grand strategy of yours, or is it killing you, every day?

I do think that the more passive approach can work, but ONLY when:

a) your prior marital interpersonal style was dominant and overly controlling; and

b) YOU are able to do it, without damage to your own psyche, knowing that it's part of your overal DBing strategy.

People can and DO pull this off. I personally couldn't, and see a lot of men who can't.

There is nothing wrong with showing strength and dignity. But I don't think there's anything particularly "strong" or "dignified" about enabling a spouse's affair. It's far better to convey, and live out, that you clearly are NOT okay with what they are doing, that you CANNOT be their friend as long as they are trying to harm you, but you DO still love them, and you are committed to working at the marriage (including your faults in it), but they MUST end their affair, first.

You cannot work on a marriage where one partner has unilaterally invited a third person into it.

Puppy

[Puppy Dog Tails]

P.S.

How old are your children again?

[grant]

Wifey, GFI and PDT,

Thanks so much for your encouragement and support. It really is all I have to lean on right now.

GFI, I'm so humbled that you find I'm showing dignity and strength in my postings here. Perhaps sometimes I'm really torn about how to act around my w. I had been following through with the DB premise, that the only way forward was to try to be her friend and love unconditionally, never mention OM, never show her how desperately destroyed I have been and continue to be.

Because my contact with her is limited, ( a couple of days a week at weekends ), it has been difficult to evaluate any progress that a particular strategy might be having. Also, I'm conscious that patience is a huge issue.
But 6 months in, if the truth be told, I still cry every day, with regret, remorse, and a very deep sorrow that I seem unable to have much control over.

PDT......... Frankly, you are a hero for taking a stand in areas that many fear to tread. I really don't know for sure, but it seems that when you were able to take such a strong stand, you felt that you were not to blame, and that you had the courage of your convictions.

I feel like I am compromised, weak and at the moment, pretty ineffectual.

Part of my problem, is that I now know so little about the status of my Wife's R with this man. She has always maintained that they are just friends, and has had little to do with the actual end of our marriage. She's very clear about that in the extract from her email. Though I know what I FEEL. I am not paranoid, and though I have tried to avoid the "snooping" and pursuing, the fact remains that she is having an inappropriate R outside our M. I would imagine that because we are separated, she feels like it is none of my business, and has clearly given me categorical reasons for our separation.

I most certainly get an overwhelming sense, that although my efforts are making things more pleasant when I visit my kids, she is day by day, withdrawing further, and her lack of respect fro me as a man is more apparent every time I see her.

I am at home now, and though she hugged me and told me she had missed me too, quite quickly, it's all gone pretty cold and there is an atmosphere of bare toleration of my presence here.
The boys are wonderful, and are 16 and 13 years old.

I DO feel terribly emasculated and my self-worth is pretty non existent.

I know that the counselling will help, and I look forward to exploring that further.

How can I ask her to do things for me, like stop her EA with OM, when she doesn't respect me, doesn't love me, and no longer trusts me.

It seems to me that you came from some sort of position of strength when you demanded these things from your wife PDT. Well, quite obviously you did. I guess what I mean is that you still had self respect, something I am quite clearly lacking.

I guess perhaps I was a bit controlling, although I very much encouraged her independence. Maybe I'm a bit of a pleaser too. I'm not entirely sure what I am or was any more. That's why it's difficult to do anything with absolute conviction.

Well, I will post more perhaps when I leave my home.I will start to think all of this over, and it is EXACTLY the kind of thoughts and experienced voice that I needed to hear. It's a different take on things, but I can relate to all that you say PDT, and it all makes sense. It's just where to go next.

Can't tell you how grateful I am. Thanks so much.

Grant

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Grant,

This is a chicken-and-the-egg situation. You're saying you can't do it this way because you don't have self-respect and confidence, and I'm saying you don't have self-respect and confidence because you're allowing this to go on this way.

Your boys are at VERY formative ages for how they are going to deal with the opposite sex in relationships and, eventually, marriage. What traits do you want to instill in them? You've certainly taught them love, and forgiveness, and you're to be commended for that. But what about boundary-setting, fighting for what you believe in, and taking a stand?

You need to know something about me: I am NOT a "tough guy." In fact, quite the opposite. I am a romantic, and a lifetime "pleaser", "rescuer" and "Mr. Nice Guy." I had to LEARN how to do this stuff, it did NOT come easy or natural to me. I STILL have to work at it -- a LOT.

My suggestion would be to pick ONE other area where you might be able to draw a boundary, like you did with the "I will no longer tolerate you disrespecting me by talking about OM around me." Is there something else that really eats at you?

Finally, I do think there was something that helped me steel my resolve, so to speak, and that was how actively I gathered intel about what my wife and her boyfriend were doing. Seeing and hearing the things that I saw and heard made it MUCH easier on me to do the difficult things necessary to take a stand for my marriage.

Puppy

[deepdive]

Sorry to say I don't have a great deal of "advice" I do on the other hand have some experience of the situation ie been there don't that and got the video.
I hate to say this but stop yourself from cowering and say no be polite and say no or no more, thanks.
As PDTails said you have to learn the skill your wife has! she makes you feel that way because you are too close to see the truth, she may be wonderful but she, have seen you or another cower and now she likes to feel the power so don't give in be strong and YOU will feel better and both you and she will begin to see the recovery maybe she will not ever change her view of you but you will and that is the real one who needs to see the improvements

[grant]

I have not posted for a few days now, as my wife discovered that I had been on this forum. I had not shut down the computer properly, and when she went to use it, this last page was on the screen.

She was very upset and angry about some of the words here, and insisted once again that I was focusing all blame upon her. Of course, I was upset too that she read some of these things, although in truth, I don't think that there is much on here that is removed from my reality.

I tried to explain that there were 7 pages of this, none of which she had read.

I think I have been clear from the outset in my journaling/posting here, that I DO consider myself almost entirely to blame for the breakdown of our marriage. I have even laid those issues out bare, and listed them......... even those things which some would rather omit. Like my issues with sex, pornography,my online A, and my failures in the past to fulfill all of my wife's needs.

I thought I'd been clear that I did not blame my wife for ending our M, and even for her EA. That's not to say that I wanted to accept her A, or liked the fact that it was happening. I have just been trying my best to find strategies to improve and change myself, to find ways to cope with the pain, and to be proactive in any way I can to foster positive change for myself and my family.

I know that many of the kind people here have tried to steer me away from accepting ALL responsibility for the failure of my marriage. It's clear in my posts that I have trouble moving from that mindset.

I'm sure she did not want to see some of the things that PDT had written, or the fact that I was looking for answers to difficult questions.
For sure, she was angry that "strangers" were telling me how she should be behaving.

I told her that if she looked at my whole thread, then she would realise that I did love and respect her, and most certainly wasn't exclusively blaming her EA for the break up.
I am here because I want to change myself and in so doing, my hope is that I might be able to begin a new R with my W. I have reconciled myself to the fact that my old marriage is dead. My W has been hammering that into my skull since the outset.

She does not want to, and will not read anything more here, so I am torn about whether to continue posting on the board.

The irony is, that TwinDad, who had helped me such a great deal with his compassion and insight, recently had to stop posting because his wife had discovered his presence here too.

All that I do know at this point, is that I have gained strength and encouragement by reading people's posts here, and by journalling and sharing my thoughts and situation here. So many people here have responded to me with such kindness and compassion, that I have been truly humbled and aided by their unselfish efforts.

I think that in truth, it really matters little to my wife what I do or say in relation to our marriage. She's clear that we're separated, our M is over, and that all she wants to do now is be friends and to co parent our children in the best way that we can.

I want to do this too, but I don't feel that I am ready to give up hope or faith in some kind of better future ahead for us and our children. I am still of the mind that promoting friendship, with a view to building respect, trust, attraction, and a deeper love, might just change things. One thing is for sure, that I don't know where it will all lead, and it still seems to change day to day.

I do need to learn a lot of new skills....... I need to learn more about me, and how my mind works. I just have to keep working on me, and reminding myself that as long as I know I have done all I could, then I'll be able to move forward and look at myself in the mirror in the morning.........

I am so grateful to all of you, who are taking the time to try to help me here.

Thanks.
Grant.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Grant,

I'm sorry that things aren't working out for you. I do wish you well, and hope you'll let us know if/how we can help. I will say this, in case your wife is reading this:

If she will read the totality of your posts, and be honest with herself, she will see how you are being MORE than fair with her. I just don't think she wants to face her own issues, nor own her own blame for her infidelity. But that's HER demon to face, not yours, and -- as you've said -- you have your own with which to deal.

Peace,

Puppy

[grant]

Thanks Puppy,

I don't think I have anything to lose in my posting here.

I don't believe I have ever written anything derogatory about her, other than to describe the situations and behaviour that has arisen. I thank you for the validation, and though on the face of it, things don't seem to working as I would like, I realise the enormous value of patience and perseverance.

I won't give up 20 years of marriage after 6 months of separation, no matter how much it hurts. Not yet anyway.........It will change if she files, but until then I will pursue every avenue I can by focusing on me and working to be a better Dad, and a better person. I will continue with my C, as I know that is most definitely for "me".

Perhaps it is true that she doesn't want to take any responsibility for her EA, but she's clear that she feels it's none of my business as we're separated.

Also that if anything was going to happen between them, it would have occurred when OM left his W.

My W does not see her R with OM as an affair, as her definition of that is sexual in its nature. She has always justified it as "just talking" and "friends".

I think we both know that this is still an inappropriate relationship, as we are still legally married. Just as my online affair was wrong and inappropriate.

But as I hold no sway over who she sees or talks to, any pressurising or further snooping on my part can only serve to push her further away. Perhaps not necessarily toward OM, but further away from me.

I am a good and worthwhile person, but I have so many amends to make, and if time is really on your side in these situations, I must be careful to take that time and try to use it in the best way I can. ie by concentrating on the things that I CAN change, and not the things I cannot.

For me, it's truly wonderful to have people post their thoughts and experiences, because it does help to see things in a different way, and can open doors and avoid the same old pitfalls.

Thanks again Puppy.

Grant

[deepdive]

as others have said you are a kind thinking fella and a nice guy looking for the good in a terrible situation but you need to be firm and tell her you are talking to your friends now, she could so can you