Glam, MWG! My homegirls! Okay, that just sounds wrong...! Guess I'm the wrong color to qualify to use that kind of terminology.
Thanks for popping in! Yeah, sorry he is with OW again too, but I wasn't expecting it to end any time soon. Sigh. Well, at least he let me know, even if it was at the last possible moment, as usual these days. I was pretty sure he was going to call me and tell me something like that, so even if I had heard the phone ringing, I wouldn't have picked it up. I could be polite about it, but why should I force myself if I can just avoid the whole thing by not answering the phone? I do sometimes wonder if he is just being courteous or if he thinks I would call the police or something if he didn't come home all night without advance warning.
I try not to think about it too much, but I do wonder if this is starting to get old for him...the sneaking around, living a double life, the financial drain, the guilt that he probably won't even admit to himself yet, etc. I mean, I'm guessing that when he and OW are together he is all happy, because he's still on that romance/sex-induced high, probably, but the rest of the time he seems to be trying to hide his misery. I certainly don't see anything happy from him except when he's interacting with other people, but he's always been good at putting on masks when necessary. People on this board often talk about how they see their MLCers cycling, or acting like everything is hunky-dory, but I haven't seen that with my H at all. With him it's a veil of cool politeness over what seems to be deep unhappiness.
Glam, I have to say that if it weren't for being totally convinced that this (standing) is definitely what God wants me to do, I'd have tossed his things out the door months ago. It's a good thing for him that I don't believe love is a feeling (I believe it is primarily an action, and feeling follows action), because I don't FEEL much love for him these days. The kind of love I have for him doesn't depend on feelings, I have discovered. It is the kind of love that gets you to do right by someone simply because it is right, not because you really believe it is going to benefit you. Sometimes I feel sort of like Abraham following orders to put Isaac to the sacrifice. Except that I wish God spoke to me a little more clearly.
I do have to say that H still surprises me sometimes by doing something for me that I wasn't expecting. A week or so ago, he fixed a flat on my bike that I had been planning to take to a repair shop. I had mentioned it to him in passing (not asking anything of him) and he said that wasn't necessary, he would fix it. Well, it took over a month of good biking weather for him to get around to it, but he did (I was too busy to do much biking anyway). I thanked him and actually initiated a quick kiss, which I haven't done in months. He seemed a bit surprised, but didn't push me away, and I can't tell if it was a good thing in his mind or not. Anyway, yesterday he started working on fixing a special chair that I have been using in my work for over a decade, which just broke beyond what I wanted to mess with a few days ago, and I was going to just try to find another like it. Again, I mentioned this to him in passing, and he started talking about taking a look at it, and I told him, "Sure, if you want, but I don't want you to feel obligated; I was just going to throw it out." He said, "It's okay, I don't feel obligated; I'll see what I can do with it." Well, these are nice things, but I'm not all starry-eyed about it actually meaning he's moving in the right direction. After all, he's almost certainly in bed with OW at this very moment. Ugh. Topic change...
I do need to figure out how to forgive him and release my anger constructively. I need to check out that website that Glam mentioned a while ago. I also have books on forgiveness that I need to read. I do pray about it quite a lot, but haven't heard a lot of feedback from God...unless it's coming through these other routes and I'm not recognizing it as such.
Right now, though, I need to get back to work! Yes, it's 5 a.m., I'm a night owl with a completely wacked-out sleep schedule! So, back to the drawing board (literally!)...
Peace, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
Dawn not sure if this can help you, but have you thought about living your life as if ow doesn't exist? I think you have a wall up and a barrier to really showing your h love because of what he is doing right now.
If you could pretend or believe that ow doesn't exist and try showing your love for your h do you think your situation could or would change? From an outside perspective with that wall up nothing is going to change.
It's hard to describe here, but what I had to do was basically forget all that h did and had to stop all the resentment towards my h. I had to stop all the hatrid that I felt for him. I had to let God into my heart and heal those hurts before my h could ever feel good about returning. When those thoughts roll in you must stop them dead in their tracks.
Not sure if I can communicate this here, but start with what would your life be like if ow was not in the picture. Would you make a pot of coffee for your h, would you make him lunch, would you pick things up for him at the store, would you phone or e-mail him?
It could start with something as simple as on your way out the door you could say h I made a pot of coffee if you would like some. Have a good day! Bye!
Rather than this cold ice feeling being around each other and maybe that is not the way it is but that is what I am reading from your posts.
What is it that you want to have happen Dawn with your R with your h, your M? If you can visualize it, you can make that happen!
Me 50 H 42 S 22 S 9 D 7 M 12 T 17 H moved out 8/2006 H moved home 1/2007 for 3 weeks H moved home 5/2011 for good
"Learn from yesterday ~ Live for today ~ And hope for tomorrow"
Where are you? I've been floating around here a little at a time the last few days due to illness. Hope you are okay.
The Bomb: 08/05 H moves out: 06/2006 H moves back: 01/07 & Out again: 01/07 H moves back: 03/08 & Out again: 04/08 H moves back: 05/09 & Out again: 07/09 Divorced 08-12 Kids: 22, 20, 19
Glam, MWG, Thanks so much for checking on me! That is so sweet of you, especially with everything you have going on in your own lives at the moment!
I have been away from the boards for about a week, working on a couple of major projects for clients, but that is all taken care of now. I'm very excited, though, because one of the weddings I just finished working on is going to be featured in a TOP wedding magazine next year, and my work is ALL OVER this wedding! And both the bride (who works in the wedding industry herself, and sends me a LOT of business) and the team from the magazine covering the wedding (who, of course, see totally extravagant and over-the-top weddings every day in the course of their work), were extremely complimentary and impressed with my work! WOO HOO! I am so thrilled about this! Now I need to get my website fully operational so it is working to bring me more business ASAP, and definitely by the time the magazine feature comes out! :does little happy dance:
As far as the home front, there is not a whole lot of major news. H has stopped kissing me goodbye in the a.m. as of about a month ago, and has not initiated any touching since then. Sometimes he doesn't even bother to tell me/say goodbye when he's leaving. I was disappointed, but not surprised or devastated--at least it is more consistent with the rest of his behavior, even though it's not moving the direction I'd like.
H has not seen OW in a week and a half, to my knowledge--not since she drove in for the ball game last Wednesday (I assume from where she lives, five hours away) and they spent the night together in some hotel somewhere in town. The only thing he said about it when he got home the next evening was, "Well, we [meaning the home team] lost the game last night." Whatever, dude.
I would have bet money that he would see her last weekend, since there were no rehearsals for the show he is in, but he didn't; I guess the Wednesday ball-game thing was a substitute for that. Maybe she had some other commitment for the weekend. And this weekend, the serious rehearsal schedule begins for his show; as I understand it, they will be rehearsing three of the four days surrounding the weekend (Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon) every week until the show goes up at the end of October. I'm guessing he will be using up a lot of his vacation days during the weekdays since he obviously can't really travel on the weekends for the next five weeks, and H and OW haven't gone more than two or three weeks without seeing each other for months and months now. But you know what? It doesn't really matter that much to me. More of the same behavior from him. Nothing worse than he's already been doing for some time now. Pfffft!
I still love him, but I'm not "in love" with him, nor do I even like him right now (although I treat him in a "friendly neighbor" fashion to the best of my ability). However, I believe that could easily change if he returns from the mother ship. The thing I am still having a hard time with is my anger and unforgiveness toward him. I did get some insight about that the other day, though. Intellectually I know perfectly well that I MUST forgive him and let go of the anger, even if for no other reason than for my prayers to be heard, and for me to receive forgiveness myself, and definitely before he can work with me on our M/R. But emotionally I am having trouble releasing those feelings, because it FEELS like if I forgive him, that means that what he has done is okay, and he shouldn't be penalized for it, and I am absolutely NOT willing to say that it is okay. I can say "I forgive him" all day, but I don't know how to emotionally let go of being wronged. How do you get past that?
I pray about it all the time. I recently read in a Charlyne message that forgiving someone doesn't mean that they are "off the hook" for what they've done; it just means that you take them off YOUR hook and put them on GOD'S hook. That helps a little, but I don't really think it "counts" as real forgiveness as long as one is still angry with the other person, and I don't know how to get rid of the anger! I feel that I must be doing something wrong, because I know how important it is to forgive, and I want to feel better about the whole thing, but I seem to be stuck in this emotional dead-end, and I don't know how to get unstuck! Help!
Glam, I am doing some of what you suggest about acting as if there were no OW, and mostly have been doing so all along. You are right that there is a wall up, but I'm not really sure what to do about it. I have only pulled back from things (like touching him, calling him, doing things for him) to follow his lead--he stopped first, so I stopped in order to not be seen as pursuing. I still do plenty of things for him, but have to evaluate everything to see if it's "too much"--I still do his laundry, clean up after him, do some cooking for him (although he seems very reluctant to eat with me), do shopping for him, offer to run errands for him or help him with this or that, sometimes take on some of the chores that he usually does, like taking out the trash.... I try to keep my conversational offerings balanced on that razor's edge between "pursuing" and "cold shoulder," which is difficult because he usually doesn't seem interested in talking with me at all. I think yesterday I may have exchanged as much as ten sentences with him. Yes, eggshells are pretty deep in this house.
I really believe that I am called to stand, regardless of how long it takes, even the rest of my life...and I can do it, but boy, do I get tired of it sometimes, especially with him being right here with his cold shoulder and his avoidance of me and determination not to crack a smile or act friendly when it's just us, and his constant lies and prevarications and half-truths... I must admit that my bulimia has been flaring up again in the last few days. I had hoped that I finally had it under control, but apparently not yet. It comes and goes; obviously one of my symptoms of stress.
So many people in RL have encouraged me to put my foot down, issue a deadline or ultimatum or something, including my pastor and my IC, oddly enough. I know they don't understand why I am doing what I am doing, and maybe think I am out of touch with reality or some such, and they hate to see me hurting. Well, I hate to see me hurting too, but at the moment I think it is inevitable if I want to be able to look myself in the eye ten years down the road, regardless of the outcome. Besides which, will it really hurt that much less if I kick him out? I doubt it, because the pain comes from knowing he went back on his vows, is an adulterer and a liar and not at all the person I fell in love with, and doesn't love me any more. I have found it easier emotionally when he is not actually in the house, but whether he is here or not doesn't change those underlying things that are the real sticking point.
Sigh. I wear myself out sometimes talking about the whole sitch. Right now I really need to wrap up and go to bed, as I am supposed to be up in about two hours to get ready for a workshop I'm going to be attending this weekend during the daytimes, and tonight I am having dinner at the home of my college friend who got in touch a couple of months ago, whom I hadn't seen in fifteen years. He and his partner are having me over for a little barbecue...he was married but got divorced when he realized he was gay, about ten years ago, and he has been with his current partner for about eight years. I don't agree that D is the best solution in most cases, of course, and I do feel very sorry for his XW (eck...what a horrible situation for her!), but I'm not sure that wasn't the right thing to do in that situation...but I don't know all the details, and I don't consider it my business in any case. My friend and his XW have a D12, so I'm sure that makes things even more interesting.
Well, as usual, this got a lot longer than I intended! Thanks for your concern and wise advice and support! I will probably be posting more on other people's threads in a couple of days.
Peace! Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
it took me about two years to get to where i could forgive h but there were moments where i would become angry and since we are human, that is to be expected. it is a process which takes some time.
as for the ultimatums, etc. - the way i look at it is this: did Jesus issue ultimatums and deadlines to people? no, he did not. people knew what they were supposed to do and it is up to them.
we are to be kind one toward another, always forgiving as Christ hath forgave us.
just some things for you to think about!
The Bomb: 08/05 H moves out: 06/2006 H moves back: 01/07 & Out again: 01/07 H moves back: 03/08 & Out again: 04/08 H moves back: 05/09 & Out again: 07/09 Divorced 08-12 Kids: 22, 20, 19
Hi Dawn. Go to that website I mentioned divorceasfriends.com it has some great stuff on foregiveness that is what helped me. Read it over and over and then read it some more. You have to forgive or this will NEVER work.
It's not letting them off the hook, the forgiveness is for you not for your h. YOU will feel so much better about YOU and the person you are when YOU forgive.
Don't hold back Dawn. If you h doesn't say goodbye, you just say bye h have a nice day. Change your approach. It doesn't mean pursuing it means you are being kind and loving from a distance.
Make him a cup of coffee, continue to do his laundry, keep the house clean, go all out in your m. That is what fighting for your m is. It's ok if you don't get a response. If nothing else Dawn you did it for yourself. Do you see the love inside you now. Look at how you treated your h when he has not been a loving or faithful man. Do you see it?
This is how it started for me. Do you think my h always said goodbye or showed he even cared? The answer is NO. It takes one spouse in the M to care and show love unconditionally regardless of all the hurts that the other is doing.
Kicking him to the curb, giving an ultamatum, any of those tactics won't bring him back, but showing your unconditional love might just be winning ticket.
You won't know unless you give it a try.
Oh you might just knock the pants off your h because he won't understand why you could be so nice when he is such an A**.
Me 50 H 42 S 22 S 9 D 7 M 12 T 17 H moved out 8/2006 H moved home 1/2007 for 3 weeks H moved home 5/2011 for good
"Learn from yesterday ~ Live for today ~ And hope for tomorrow"
MWG, Glam, Thanks for checking on me and offering your words of wisdom!
MWG, it helps to get your perspective--I don't feel so bad about not being able to forgive instantly! It is difficult reading Charlyne's messages about forgiving your WAS every day for whatever they may have done, and knowing that I haven't been able to forgive H yet for some things that happened years ago! Also, you have a point about Jesus and ultimatums. That helps too.
Glam, tonight I went to that website you recommended and started looking around. I think I am going to need to spend some time soaking it all up and turning it over in my mind. Thank you for suggesting it.
Actually, I may have been unclear about the not saying goodbye thing; it is not that he just looks me in the eye and walks out without speaking. It's that if I'm asleep he no longer wakes me to say goodbye, and if I'm somewhere in the house where he won't see me on his way out, he doesn't always seek me out to tell me he's leaving. If I'm awake and he sees me on his way out, he does tell me goodbye. When he first stopped saying goodbye to me when leaving for work, I would wake up later and think I must have been so tired when he left that I didn't remember him telling me goodbye, but after this happened a few days in a row, I realized he was just quietly leaving without waking me. That was a bit bothersome, but not really surprising. I never criticize him or complain about anything he does or doesn't do...not to his face, anyway, and I'm trying to minimize how much I do it with other people. With him I just try to act as if whatever he does is fine with me.
I think he is confused about why I am being as nice to him as I am, when even though he (apparently) feels that everything he is doing is perfectly justified, he has to know that I am not happy about the sitch, even though I don't say anything to him about it anymore unless I can't figure out a way around doing so. I have been convinced all along that if I weren't being so nice to him, and not trying to fence him in with boundaries at all, he would have moved out long ago, but he's still here, 11 months (and two days) after the bomb.
So many people have said that if they were in my shoes, they would throw his clothes on the lawn and change the locks. I can't believe it's never occurred to him that some people would have that sort of reaction (in fact, for a while he kept asking me if I planned to kill him in his sleep!), but I have continued to be as nice to him as I can manage. Initially I was doing it because I was so scared and desperate, but not any more. Now I do it because I choose to rise above that level, and choose to be the better person. I haven't snooped in months (and I feel better all the way around because of that); now I just need to learn to forgive him and to control my bad-mouthing him to other people!
So...I had a good weekend. I didn't learn a whole lot in my workshop that was really new to me, but I enjoyed myself anyway; got to play a bit with tools and fun products. Saturday I had a lovely dinner and visit with my long-lost friend (the one who got D because he decided he was gay). I also met his partner, who is very nice. Why is it that gay men seem to be, on average, some of the best conversationalists around? They seem to listen better, pay more attention, and be more interested and responsive, and less egocentric, than the average straight man, or even the average woman, I think! Better than me, certainly, although I don't consider myself average! No offense intended to straight men or anyone else, but this has been my experience, and I have met a lot of gay men in the last ten years, because my H is heavily involved in community theatre, and I think there's been at least one gay man in every one of the 30 or so productions he's done in that time (actually he started 10 years ago, but those 30 shows have been crammed into 7 years, because he took 2002 off from theatre, and then the show he is in now is the first one after a 2-year hiatus). Anyway...lot of easy-to-talk-to gay men out there, in my opinion! I think that is part of what makes so many women say "all the good men are either gay or married!"
I have a few work things to take care of this week, plus yoga class tonight, teaching my calligraphy class tomorrow night, and calligraphy study group the next night, and hopefully I'll get a chance to do some homework, because my out-of-town bi-monthly class meets this coming weekend, so I need to get myself on the road very, VERY early on Friday morning. (Bi-monthly means every other month, right? I think so, and semi-monthly is twice a month. I always have to think about this stuff.) Finances have been tightening up a bit, but hopefully I will be catching up on the bills little by little pretty soon.
Well, it's ridiculously late (or early, depending on how you look at it...5:30 a.m.), so I am going to hie me off to bed. I have my moments here and there, but on average I am feeling stronger and more capable bit by bit all the time. My self-esteem is unbelievably improved from where it was for years, up to about January. Now I just need to actually follow through on more of these things I think would be a good idea for me!
Thank you all for being here for me!
Peace, Dawn
Me 45/H 47, no kids Together since 1985; M/1992 Bomb1 (EA-OW1, age 22) 2001 Bomb2 (EA/PA-OW2, age 22) 10/2007, A continues H left 11/24/08 minimal contact, no legal action http://tinyurl.com/DawnHope1
I think what bugs them the most is when you are nice because the guilt overwhelms them more. And they can become somewhat paranoid wondering if she is so nice, what is she up to or plottng.....
Just keep doing what you are doing. You certainly keep yourself plenty busy which is good.
As for telling you goodbye when he leaves, my H stopped telling me that a few months after I found out about the a. I just accepted it and went about my business.
The Bomb: 08/05 H moves out: 06/2006 H moves back: 01/07 & Out again: 01/07 H moves back: 03/08 & Out again: 04/08 H moves back: 05/09 & Out again: 07/09 Divorced 08-12 Kids: 22, 20, 19
HUGS Dawn. I prayed for you and the word I got was encouragement. Then I read your post, so maybe that word would make sense for you.
Keep doing what you are doing. Don't talk about your h to others unless it's all positive and loving. Learn that one fast!
Don't change the locks or throw the clothes out on the lawn. I changed the locks and it put me years behind. That one I can speak of experience. I started to put his clothes in a bag out on the lawn and then stopped myself and hung them all back up before h knew. I am so sad thinking now that I did that. Not very loving that is for sure!
Makes me want to cry how I treated my h 2 years ago. Anger is NOT a good thing or very becoming!
Me 50 H 42 S 22 S 9 D 7 M 12 T 17 H moved out 8/2006 H moved home 1/2007 for 3 weeks H moved home 5/2011 for good
"Learn from yesterday ~ Live for today ~ And hope for tomorrow"
No offense intended to straight men or anyone else, but this has been my experience, and I have met a lot of gay men in the last ten years, because my H is heavily involved in community theatre, and I think there's been at least one gay man in every one of the 30 or so productions he's done in that time (actually he started 10 years ago, but those 30 shows have been crammed into 7 years, because he took 2002 off from theatre, and then the show he is in now is the first one after a 2-year hiatus). Anyway...lot of easy-to-talk-to gay men out there, in my opinion! I think that is part of what makes so many women say "all the good men are either gay or married!" 