It gives me hope when I read that you are rebuilding your life. It all seems possible even when at the moment it seems impossible.
We are also upper middle class BUT at this stage have not sold anything ( although waiting on offer for a property) In fact we purchased another investment property this year. Thing is we both work very well as business partners ( perhaps that was the problem - not enough loving - all business )
The bad side to the above is that we are tangled together not just with kids and I still feel very finacially dependent on him. If my M cannot be fixed then everything will have to go and it will be me forcing it I think.
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Despite the hardship that faces her, I will contest the financial terms of the dissolution anyway. Not to spite her, but for negotiation purposes. She is withholding something I want - more time with my kids. I am willing to pay her ransom money to get more time with my kids! Money is the only card I have in my hand at this point.
Thats what i am talking about. Good on you.
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he funny thing is, she reaches out to me, from time to time. Under the terms of the court order, I am not permitted to contact her in any way. But in some small ways she contacts me, she emails me and tells me things I don't need to know - she is starting a new job, helping a friend out with a seminar, going out of town. None of this is my concern at this point. I am constrained from ever responding, though, according to her no-contact order.
She cannot let go !!!I know her feelings. Seems she is playing hard ball on the face of it but deep down she is not letting go. Amazing to me. She has to have regrets. When she reaches out to are you listening and understanding ? Does she know she can come back ? UNCONDITIONINGLY ( she could not do it any other way)
Have you had another girlfriend since it all happened ? If not have you tried hinting to her that you are out and about and looking ? For me that is the biggest fear because I know that there are many people out there that you can form relationships with. The new R would be exciting and loving and fireworks etc .
You become stronger when there is someone else in your life. You dont care about former spouse or current H or W. They are boring and old news. So this really frightens me but i also would of welcomed it just to get H off my back when A first discovered.
Not sure where you are at with W. She may have another man and if so then what I said above would not work.
hope you have some fun things planned with kids. Lovely spring morning here so I am going outside to do solo mother jobs . Ha Ha
Yes, lots of possibilities. Ya gotta believe. Whichever way the wind blows, you will be good. Too bad about the entanglement. That may yet be a blessing, as it is not so easy to unravel. At least it means more time to try to unravel it, and maybe mroe time means more opportunity to reconsider.
Feeling financially dependent has to be a drag. Have you thought about a job? Maybe now is a good time to look into training, building a network, preparing just in case.
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Does she know she can come back ? UNCONDITIONINGLY ( she could not do it any other way)
No, I don't think she knows. I imagine she thinks it is too far gone at this point. I have no way to tell her. Like I said, no contact whatsoever. Not a single word in 7 months. Court ordered. I can smile, which I do. I always look nice. I am always laughing with the kids when she sees me for kid exchange. I don't know what else to do.
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Have you had another girlfriend since it all happened ?
I thought about dating but it just did not feel right. So I am working on making guy friends, doing guy things - car shows, auto races, golfing, fishing, football games. For now that will keep me happy. I don't really want a woman right now. She knows I could go out and get a date, she might even think I am dating. Again, no communication. The dating thing really won't work - as a signal to her I mean - at least not at this point, because I just cannot do it. Maybe I should. Maybe it would be good for me.
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You become stronger when there is someone else in your life.
Yes, I completely agree. You know I feel the same way with the guys I am spending more time with. I feel better as I build a new network of friends.
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Not sure where you are at with W. She may have another man ...
I doubt it. 42 yrs old, 4 kids, no job,...My 6 yr old told me that mommy was on match.com (dating site) but she just kept meeting weirdos so she stopped. Can you imagine? a 6 year old!! I found out because the girl was bringing up match.com on the computer in my house. That was her way of telling me.
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hope you have some fun things planned with kids. Lovely spring morning here so I am going outside to do solo mother jobs . Ha Ha
We're going to a fair tomorrow! It's just the beginning of fall here. Hayrides and livestock shows and music and carnival stuff. It should be really fun. I'm glad you are enjoying the morning. It's good to appreciate the gifts you have in front of you, every day.
Feeling financially dependent has to be a drag. Have you thought about a job? Maybe now is a good time to look into training, building a network, preparing just in case.
I have my own little business - H is non working partner. he also has his own business of which i put 20 years into building with him. Still his attitude is what makes me feel dependent. I actually work quite hard and make enough money to support. He pays no child support and thats just because we are not really at the nitty gritty of money. A hate it . Not being someone who pays much attention or cares about money I hate talking about it.
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I thought about dating but it just did not feel right.
I know what you mean. It would really feel like the end to do that so you dont go there. BUT as the one that had the A i must say that my biggest fear is the H does find someone else. I know it would not be differcult for him and he would probably REALLY never come back to me because of all the pain I put him through.
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No, I don't think she knows. I imagine she thinks it is too far gone at this point. I have no way to tell her. Like I said, no contact whatsoever. Not a single word in 7 months. Court ordered. I can smile, which I do. I always look nice. I am always laughing with the kids when she sees me for kid exchange. I don't know what else to do.
I cant believe that she can be happy with no contact. She must surely miss that contact herself. I would of only been happy with that if I was in fear of being integrated over A again and again. I think you msut somehow let her know that you are over A and just want to rebuild the M. What would happen if you sent a letter ? Could you use a friend or family member as go between. Although you hate to involve anyone else. How do you share your childrens successes , failures , happy times , etc . It does not seem fair to the children for you to have no contact. The work of communicating falls to them every single day. They are paying the price of this M breakdown. I thought in todays modern world we all agreed that the less impact on the children the better. We know they get hurt the most anyway so W should be lessening this not increasing. Hmmmmm must be away through this mess for you.
Have fun at the fair. I agree about each little thing life brings. This process is still a day by day for me. At least I have stopped crying. Still waiting on DB books.
H ( whom I dont live with ) has been away all weekend on a fishing trip with friends. As it is Fathers day here I invited him around for dinner with our children upon his return. He arrived , said very little, spent an hour with us and then said he was so tired he was off home ( his mums) Thanked me for dinner. It was as if he was a reluctant guest !!!! You would not even imagine we had been married for so long. He was so formal.
Sick of it. He was tired but he made no effort whatsever to be even a little aware. Children did not seem to mind. In fact encouraged him to leave as were concerned he could fall asleep on the drive to his mums. My kids are teenagers.
How do I not get angry about that? It is much easier if i dont ever see him. Why does he not see what he is loosing ? How hurt can he be about the A ? Should I just give up ?
Maxy, I know the feeling. The "I'm sick of this" feeling. "what are they thinking!!?!?!?!?" Oh yeah, I know that feeling!
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How do I not get angry about that?
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that not getting angry is absolutely essential. You've got to find a way. It's horrible, the way he is behaving. I know it must feel horrible to you. He's so distant and uncaring.
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It is much easier if i dont ever see him.
Well now , that is a leap from "how do I not get angry?" Your moods and reactions are yours to own. You don't have to like what he does. But you don't need to react. You can choose to react if you like. You own it.
As for deciding that you need him out of your life, I know that feeling. "it would be much easier if you never saw him." Ah, that sounds like Maxy running away. Excuse me if this isn't true, but it sounds like a "I can't take it!" "I can't control myself when he does this" kinda thing.
But you can. you can control yourself, your reactions. Even when he behaves badly.
I would encourage you to not throw down an ultimatim or push him away further. Ok, so, he didn't want to celebrate Father's day with you. Ok. His loss.
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Why does he not see what he is loosing ? How hurt can he be about the A?
It's not the affair. I told you before. It's just a lot of stuff. He's not handling everything well.
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Should I just give up ?
Only you know the answer to this. If it were me, I wouldn't.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Thankfully books arrived today. I will start reading.
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If it were me, I wouldn't.
Give up ! I have been going through this for 4 years. I dont want to give up BUT common sense says if I dont give up eventually I die a lonely old woman. I like men , I enjoy that they are different. I like have a mate. Do you think that after a while you just know when to give up. It does not become a choice but something that just happens ? I dont want to push the issue either way, I wont issue ultimatim but hell I need to see some progress.
Hope fair was fun with kids. nice to take your mind off things.
Four years ia a long time. I guess it's not really fair of me to say "if it were me, I wouldn't (give up)." I can't say, because I haven't walked in your shoes. I have my own shoes, my own path which is similar but different than yours. Four years is a long long time.
I spoke to a psychiatrist who told me, living depressed can change your brain chemistry. If you live depresssed for too long, you actually change your brain, and it becomes much more difficult to recover. So if you are depressed while waiting, I would say, you have to change something.
I was depressed for a while, but I decided to take a longer view. Of course I am not four years in, so it is easier for me. Also my situation is still evolving. My mate hasn't even moved out of the hosue yet, hasn't gotten a job... I mean the "real life" effects of the split have not been seen. Not totally true. On my side, I feel like there have been lots of repercussions. On her side, not so much. It is now happening.
I was thinking about this the other day - the length of time in any particular situation is not the important thing. It is the ... i don't know the right word... the maturity? of the situation... Time and the progress along a path are only loosely related. Moving house, getting a job... those are big steps toward real separation. So far, unbelievably to me, she hasn't yet taken those steps. But those steps are coming now.
I'm not feeling vindictive about it. It's just... reality is starting. Maybe she will love the independence, the self-sufficiency. She'll have much less money, but maybe that is her dream - to have her own job, punch the clock, work alld ay and then care for kids at night, and do it all on her terms. Maybe that will be really good for her and invigorating and empowering.
Or maybe she will think - you know, I like my newly developed independence, but I would like a partner in this journey.
I have been waiting a long long time but I will wait a little more. By waiting, I don't mean I am sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring. I just mean, living, developing my own independence and keeping a little place in my heart open, just in case.
Hey Maximus, I'm sorry, maybe you already clarified all this. But I forget. Can you point me to a timeline for the past 4 years for you?
ey Maximus, I'm sorry, maybe you already clarified all this. But I forget. Can you point me to a timeline for the past 4 years for you?
8 months in a affair Snapped 01/2005 H moved out 01/2005 Moved back 05/2005 Moved out later Moved back 11/2005 Moved out 04/2007
I told total truth about A 04/08. I had minimised contact etc with OM during A. No contact with OM since 01/05
Moved back 05/2008 Moved out 08/2008
In those years I have done everything asked of me by H and MC to be remorseful, sorry , understanding. I did this I thought while lying. Sooooo really I was doing none of the above.
Since I had lied for so long I wonder if the impact of the A only hit once I told the truth. I know I was devastated beyond belief when he left this time. Was it because he had the truth ? Is he feeling the pain really now ? Maybe I should not consider the earlier lying years and should only be thinking we are early on in the process?
started the book last night. Very interesting. Great little tool for any marriage to have. If only we could turn back time.
It is interesting about your W. If she is taking baby steps I think that is easier. you adjust slowly. Each step as a woman is difficult but the smaller the step the easier to get used to the new situation.
Does she rely on you for work around the house ? Not that i think you should not be doing stuff. The more contact , the more friendly the better I think. My moods these days swing from , resentment to anger to despair to hope to OK get on with it etc etc. Drives me crazy !
Good on you not allowing depression to take over. Not good for anyone. I did not get depressed ( in the black hole ). I am not that tpye of person. By that I mean I am an optimist ( ALWAYS THINKING THINGS WILL GET BETTER ) Not that , that has stopped the grief I am going through and should go through. I believe we all have to grieve and although its is ugly and sad it is necessary and character building. Have to feel the pain.
Optimisium has also not helped my situation. I keep sittting here waiting for him to feel better. That is why the book should be good for me .
So chin up and I think you sound like you will be fine. Your moving forward and I love the way you have left the little door open. I think that us how i should start looking at things.
Sounds like you've had 4 years of remorse for your affair. Not that it does you any good now, but I wouldn't have told him any more details than he already knew. I put myself in your husband's shoes and it would be hard for me too.
But is that all there is to this? I wonder. he came back several times knowing you had an affair. Why does knowing more about it drive him out again? Did you not tell him that you had sex? If he knew enough of the details I can't see why he'd leave again unless there were other things he either liked about being single and independent, or there were other issues in the marriage that he was running from. Is it possible that he's interested in someone else? Don't put it past a guy to use this as an excuse to get out when he wants to have his own affair in a tit-for-tat way. Just mainly thinking out loud, but something really seems amiss. I know getting over affairs is difficult, but this seems a little excessive to me.
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
Wow, Maxy, that is a long saga. I'm sorry it's so hard.
Stepping back a bit...in my situation, the affair, the sex she had with my friend, the details... those were not the main thing. Sure, at first, that was a focus for me, but after the initial shock, the thing that really hit me was the deception, the dishonesty. When she continued to behave dishonestly, that is the thing I could not tolerate. That is the thing that I refused to accept.
A good marriage is recoverable after an affair, but my philosophy is that it requires total honesty. I don't mean, total disclosure of all details of the affair. I mean, honesty about feelings and ongoing activities. And that honesty is a 2-way street. It's hard for the affair partner to be honest if the left-behind-spouse is accusatory or is big into guilt trips. So honesty requires lots of effort and work and care on both sides.
I see some parallels in my situation and yours, Max. After the discovery, I read a bunch of books, all of which advised zero contact with the affair partner. I asked my wife to do that for me, for our marriage. She agreed. But then she continued to speak with him, email him. She got calling cards so that the phone calls would not show up on the house phone or on her cell phone. She used secret email accounts. She made excuses to me "I needed to talk to someone" as if the OM was the only person on earth she could talk to. She was continuing the contact, if not the sex, while lying to me about it. She was continuing the affair.
I found out that it continued, by hearing from the OM's ex-wife. She told me "I don't want you to be played for a fool." This happened several times. Or in other instances, my own wife would admit to me that she was calling him, seeing him for dates. Over and over again, I asked my wife again to stop, and over and over again she promised that she would, and over and over again that promise was worthless. It's like an addiction, I guess. on my part, too. I had to be loco to keep taking her back. What took me so long to say "enough is enough" ?
I don't really care if they had sex on that date, or what they talked about on the phone. That's not the point. The point is she continued to lie to me. That was intolerable. There's no way to build a relationship like that, on dishonesty.
So... I can see some similarities. Maybe I can see a little of your husband's perspective. In your case you said "no contact with OM since 2005" which is good. I don't know what you mean then, by "totally honest on 4/08". What were you not honest about before?
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In those years I have done everything asked of me by H and MC to be remorseful, sorry , understanding. I did this I thought while lying. Sooooo really I was doing none of the above.
This is the part I don't quite get. "I did this I thought while lying." So you were showing remorse and apoligizing, but yet still lying. Is that right? and if so, Lying about what?
Putting myself in your H's shoes... well no. that's not fair. Actually I am just going to speak from my own shoes...! what would it take for me to take her back? #1, Honesty. And #2, Some real signs of a change of heart.
She would have to accept responsibility for her affair, without blaming me, without minimizing (eg, she once told me, "it just happened.", and also "everything is 100% your fault." (my fault) Look, I accept my share of responsibility and I am willing to work on my part, but there is no way I accept responsibility for her getting and using secret calling cards and having sex with him in our bed. Sorry.).
She would have to commit to going to Retrouvaille with me.
She would have to completely renounce her behavior over the past couple years.
She would have to commit with me to a new marriage with new effort on just us - like date night every week, activities just for us (like tennis or ...?), and couples vacations, no kids.
Fifteen minutes of just-us time every day.
Boundaries with the kids - I want them to stay out of our bedroom, I want the bedroom to be mine and my wife's - just our own peaceful space with no toys and TVs and kids stuff. The kids can have the rest of the house, I just want one room for me and my love.
Those are some ideas. (I have some very specific ideas don't I? Am I being too demanding?)
So if your husband is similar to me - just tired of the deceipt -how would you go about proving to him that you are truly changed now? I don't know. That's a hard thing. It's hard for a guy who is punch drunk to go back into that ring one more time. I've been figuratively punched in the nose so many times by the wife, too many times for me to accept her again without conditions. I still want her back, but not the wife she was - the disconnected, dishonest, refuse-to-accept-responsibility wife she was. I have some minimal requirements now.
