I agree with you that adultery and divorce are awful, because they are inherently wrong. In most cases, the results are disastrous. However, I don't think it's the negative results that make it a bad choice, it's the moral case that make it wrong. Remember in DB they never say adultery is wrong, they just tell you to make yourself the better option.
However, in a small number of cases the WAS and the OP walk off into the sunset and the LBS can't seem to make themselves appear to be the "better" or "more attractive" option.
******** The article I was referring to takes into account that sometimes, sin and the wrong choices, seem to bring us greater joy than obedience and faithfulness.
--Theoden
Well, I wonder how many of those marriages under those circumstances with one or both cheating on their spouses would have greater joy in their next R long-term? I think when the initial chemicals and glow wear off, you still would have an R with its shares of joys and pain and boredom.
I also think it's more than just one bad moral choice or whatever. I think people that would consider leaving a married partner for what they perceive as a better option have more wrong with them than just making one bad moral choice. I've just seen so many accounts of dysfunctional OP's and WAS here on the boards; I think it is more than just that.
I also think it's more than just one bad moral choice or whatever. I think people that would consider leaving a married partner for what they perceive as a better option have more wrong with them than just making one bad moral choice. I've just seen so many accounts of dysfunctional OP's and WAS here on the boards; I think it is more than just that.
Karen,
Sometimes the WAS is in the fog of a new romance. Sometimes they behave clearly on "script".
However, the choice to have the affair was a moral one.
Sometimes we talk about MLC and the "fog" as a way of increasing our hope that they'll snap out of it. I think new romances cause hurt and complications and certainly lots od dysfunction, but it does not absolve our WAS of their accountability.
But, statistically 23-35% of all people who marry their affair partners stay married for life. I'm sure some of them are very happy about their choices.
Deep inside us we want justice and payment and consequences for wrong moral actions. We want to see it in our lifetime.
Sometimes we don't.
I think that will happen on Judgement Day, when all secrets are laid open.
Well, I wonder how many of those marriages under those circumstances with one or both cheating on their spouses would have greater joy in their next R long-term? I think when the initial chemicals and glow wear off, you still would have an R with its shares of joys and pain and boredom.
Well we know about 65 - 75% of marriages that reault from infidelity fail. That leaves the other 25-35% that last a lifetime.
I don't know how many of those 25-35% realize that the grass only seems greener on the other side and that any relationship has it's up and downs, so.....perhaps they grow up and stick it out with spouse #2. Maybe some of them are genuinely happier. Maybe some are incredibly happy. Who knows?
My point was, that in DB-ing we are supposed to attract our spouses back. It's morally neutral.q It's plain and simple: make sure our spouses feel better with us than they feel with OM/OW. We are still pandering to the tyranny/whims of desire. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If our spouses end up marrying OP, we have a 65-75% shot at telling them later, "I told you so! This wouldn't last." But there's a 25-35% chance of them getting away with it scott-free and telling themselves, "I'm so glad I got out of that marriage."
What I'm saying, is that even if there seems to be the promise of perfect, personal happiness (in this life) through infidelity, I would still say it was wrong.
Or more simply, we shouldn't do the wrong thing, even if we can get away with it, and it would seemingly enrich us or make us happy.
In the cosmic eternal scale, doing the wrong thing always bites us in the a@@, but out time-table is not God's.
If 25-35% of people who commit murder were able to "get away with it", would that alter the morals of it? They may escape the worldly consequences of their actions, but the higher order is still there, always.
They will reap what they sow. It's just a matter of time.
make sure our spouses feel better with us than they feel with OM/OW. We are still pandering to the tyranny/whims of desire.
But when their brains are drunk on hormones, endorphins and everything else that goes with an affair, reasoning with them about what's right isn't going to be very effective I'm afraid. Because they really know what they're doing is wrong, they are just too euphoric to care. So while we're pandering, we're also employing strategies that may be more effective. Maybe.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
What I'm saying, is that even if there seems to be the promise of perfect, personal happiness (in this life) through infidelity, I would still say it was wrong.
Or more simply, we shouldn't do the wrong thing, even if we can get away with it, and it would seemingly enrich us or make us happy.
Well, one problem I think I have with that theory is that seems to suggest that your happiness can be realized through another person and if you find the "right" person, or the "more right" person you'll be happy. I've come to believe that happiness is much more internal. I can be happy in whatever situation I am in and I determine my own happiness. I don't find or look for happiness in other people or material objects or whatever.
I also would personally find it very hard to feel happy and enriched in my life if I had broken up a marriage or 2 marriages and messed with my children's lives and the OP's children, and don't see how others could feel happy or enriched in that situation either. All that for some R which chances are 80% or something will not work out??? Karen
But when their brains are drunk on hormones, endorphins and everything else that goes with an affair, reasoning with them about what's right isn't going to be very effective I'm afraid. Because they really know what they're doing is wrong, they are just too euphoric to care. So while we're pandering, we're also employing strategies that may be more effective. Maybe.
Hoosier, I agree. It's the most effective strategy, for the most part. I'm just pointing out, that indeed, it's simply a strategy to get their attention in the hope that if they are attracted back, they will come to some form of realization, apology and re-invigoration of their conscience. They need their sanity back.
But their sanity depends on you remaining attractive. Or as we might say, you will have really changed.
And then, of course, you need to keep the home fires burning, forever.
If you look at the forums and chapter of the book entitled, "keeping the changes going" indicate, right or wrong, we will be on the performance treadmill for the rest of our marriage. Yes, marriage is work, but in essence what DB is saying is that it's not held together by a covenant or commitment, but a life-long, mutually satisfying game of "What have you done for me lately?"
I'm honestly wrestling with that at the moment.
I'm deeply hurt and have come to question the fundamental character and goodness of my wife. It's been 2.5 years. So what if I can GAL and attract her back? For how long? Do I want what I see?
Or more simply, we shouldn't do the wrong thing, even if we can get away with it, and it would seemingly enrich us or make us happy. In the cosmic eternal scale, doing the wrong thing always bites us in the a@@, but our time-table is not God's
Dear Theoden,
Just recently, maybe as recent as yesterday, I started reading your thread. You are a wise sage, and I wish to follow in these footsteps. Sometimes it is hard, I'll admit that. I am the worst for not always doing the right thing. Giving it to God has always been the best means of dealing with hardship in my lifetime. I have been married once before, when I was very young. And I remember asking God not to make me bitter. Bitter is a hard and lonely world. This time I ask God to do the right thing. I have a story, too, about things happening in God's time. I will tell it one day, if I ever find the strenght.
