I agree with GF - just be there for her and listen to her. I actually wouldn't "coach" her on what to say or not say to him. I think she's old enough to decide that. And I think one of the worst things you could do, actually, is teach her to "stuff" her feelings rather than say things like that to her Dad. She'll naturally do it anyway if he keeps hurting her.. but you don't want to push her to handle her feelings that way. Make sense?
GF is right.. you don't know what's going on in his head. The way he snapped at her actually makes me think he IS considering it, and he's mad that she's hurting (he took it out on her, but my guess is he's mad at himself.. she had a point and he knows it). Not that *I* know what's going on in his head either, but that's my guess.
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Anyway, H also called a little bit ago to tell me he's coming on Sunday to get the rest of his stuff....seems like I need to get resigned to the fact that he's never coming back.
Probably a good mindset so that you'll take the best possible care of yourself and your D.
He may come back, so you can keep the door open a crack if you want - but focusing on yourself and your future happiness is the best possible goal right now.
Me 35, H 38; Together 13.5 yrs, M 7 Bomb 1 10/07/06 Sep'd 1/14/07 - 4/15 Piecing: 4/07 - 9/07 Bomb 3 10/11/07: Never loved you, let's separate 2/08 slowly improving 7/08 Piecing (7/25/08 rings back on!!) Current thread
I was ondering if you and D could do something on Sunday so you're not there when he comes to get his stuff. I think that if you are out of the house then you can focus on other things but if you're there when he arrives it may be too difficult on the both of you.
Jen *The more anger towards the past you carry in your heart, the less capable you are of loving in the present*
I was ondering if you and D could do something on Sunday so you're not there when he comes to get his stuff. I think that if you are out of the house then you can focus on other things but if you're there when he arrives it may be too difficult on the both of you.
EXCELLENT idea!
Plan a girls' day out with your D and have FUN - shopping, movie, mani/pedis, ..... You get the idea.
(((CW)))
Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point in order to move forward. ~ Joseph Campbell
I think that a girls day out is a great idea as well. I keep myself and the kids so busy these days that I have to schedule a couple evenings at home so chores get done and the kids can unwind. I know they are hurting too so I secretly think it's great when they say things that pull at W's heartstrings. She should know how her choices are affecting them and since she doesn't live with them that sort of thing is a good way for it to come out. I think it's healthy especially since when the kids say things it's so raw and innocent.
Me:34 W:31 d's 5 & 10 M: 5 years, T: 8, Bomb1 3/8/08,#2:3/28/08 Asked 4 D:4/19/08, discovered PA 5/8/08,W moved out 6/30/08 W pregnant by OM: 2/17/08
So H drops D off tonight and the R talk came up again. My fault...I know, but no use crying over spilt milk. Convo went something like this:
H: You are being indifferent Me: Isn't that what you want me to be...indifferent H: Why would I want that Me: So that I don't show I care H: Are you mad at me? Me: No...well...maybe I am...not mad, but I had a counseling appointment today and my feelings are a pretty raw right now. H: Why? Me: Because it dawned on me that you must have been pretty miserable with me to give up your family, your home and the ability to see your D every day. H: I don't know why you would think not having me around is any different...you never wanted me around before and I could never tell you how I was feeling. Me: I did want you around...I just didn't show it I guess...I wish you could have told me how you felt H: You were always too stressed out about work Me: The fact that I made you feel like my work stress was more important than whatever you were experiencing saddens me H: I don't need your sarcasm Me: Oh my gosh...I am not being sarcastic at all....I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart H: I don't know who you are...you change all the time Me: I think I've been pretty consistent for a while now...you can't see I've changed? H: I see a change, but I think you have a motive Me: What motive? H: I don't know...I need to go Me: I miss you.....my counselor told me I shouldn't tell you that because it just reminds you that you don't miss me H: Your counselor is a quack Me: Is she right though? H: I don't think about it Brace yourself folks....I REALLY put the R talk into overdrive...what a dumbass! Me: So you don't see us ever being together again? H: Not right now Me: What does that mean H: I don't see myself ever coming back Me: Never? H: Never Me: Wow....you can honestly say you could never see us back together? H: I don't know what I think Me: It makes me sad that you don't want to ML anymore H: It's just too confusing Me: Because you think I'll get you to care again and then turn back into my old self H: Yep Me: You are afraid of me hurting you again H: Probably Me: I love making love with you and miss you
At this point I ask him for a kiss and he says "why". I say because I want to...we kiss....have some sexual talk...he makes mention of our last ML session. I tell him I know tonight it's too late but I want him to ML to me again....he says "maybe".
So then he leaves......sigh....I know the R talk was a bad idea...but I'm so driven to get answers and then of course I don't like them. I think the only way I can say I've improved is that I don't cry in front of him anymore. Is that progress???
Also...and Nik don't shoot me for even asking something that resembles what is he thinking...but...is this one of those cases when I should believe what he does not what he says? I ask because he went from telling me he doesn't see himself coming back to kissing me and talking about sex without skipping a beat.
You know better so you won't find any 2x4's from me. One thing I have found over and over in my sitch is not to ask questions that I either already know the answer to or that I don't want to know the answers to.
I think your H wants you, but my vote is to back off and see if he initiates.
Me:34 W:31 d's 5 & 10 M: 5 years, T: 8, Bomb1 3/8/08,#2:3/28/08 Asked 4 D:4/19/08, discovered PA 5/8/08,W moved out 6/30/08 W pregnant by OM: 2/17/08
So then he leaves......sigh....I know the R talk was a bad idea...but I'm so driven to get answers and then of course I don't like them.
Actually I was going to say that the first part of it I thought was pretty good. I think you did a pretty good job sharing your feelings and validating his. I would've stopped when he said "I need to go" and simply said bye to him... but I think the first part was good
You're not going to get the answers you want.
The more you ask, the more you're going to 1. cement the decision in his mind, and 2. push him to say/do more things to make you "believe" him. The asking isn't just hurting you NOW.. it's hurting your chances at reconciling. Hopefully knowing that will help motivate you to stop.
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I think the only way I can say I've improved is that I don't cry in front of him anymore. Is that progress???
Yes, that is great!!
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is this one of those cases when I should believe what he does not what he says? I ask because he went from telling me he doesn't see himself coming back to kissing me and talking about sex without skipping a beat.
Yep... actually you should do that in almost all cases!! Validate what he says, but believe what he does.
I agree with Hopeful - I think he wants to ML but doesn't want you pushing for it. Back off, and see what happens.
((CW))
Me 35, H 38; Together 13.5 yrs, M 7 Bomb 1 10/07/06 Sep'd 1/14/07 - 4/15 Piecing: 4/07 - 9/07 Bomb 3 10/11/07: Never loved you, let's separate 2/08 slowly improving 7/08 Piecing (7/25/08 rings back on!!) Current thread
Ok, so because I'm a total doorknob when it comes to this stuff...I have a few questions.
1. What is the psychology around why asking questions about the future solidifies the WAS's decision to be done? 2. H has some real issues with not having felt appreciated by me....for example...I read Love Languages and realized H's love language is gifts/cards and words of praise. That is not my love language so I wasn't good about giving it to him. He is going through some stuff at work right now and has been having interviews...since I know his love language now and I want him to feel good about himself I was thinking of sending him a card with some words of encouragement. Is that too much??? Will he think it insincere? 3. What the hell do I talk about with him so that I can keep my mouth shut about R??? 4. Should I continue to invite him for dinner periodically even though he always turns me down? This is so hard because I'm afraid if I stop he will think "see I knew she didn't really care about me...when the going got tough she stopped". 5. I have this same question about the sex....H's BIGGEST complaint was lack of interest in him sexually...if I don't show interest will he think I haven't changed? When we have sex it's the only time he acts "normal" to me...of course right after things go south. 6. Should you really not believe what they say??? I mean damn...he told me he never sees himself coming back...those are some strong words and they hurt like hell. 7. My DB Coach said there is a tipping point in this type of situation where the 2 steps forward, 3 steps back pattern changes and it's 3 steps forward 2 steps back...how the hell do you know when you are getting closer to that. 8. What actions should you be encouraged by vs. just deluding yourself into thinking things are a good sign. 9. Nik? How the hell did you do this?????????
1. What is the psychology around why asking questions about the future solidifies the WAS's decision to be done?
I'm not entirely sure... but I think it's because they're very confused about what their future will look like - particularly who will be in it. If they've talked themselves out of a future with you but you're asking about the future, it kinda implies that you'll be in their future. Does that make sense a little?
Hijacking for a sec but this just came back to me and I thought it might help..
I'm thinking back to a boyfriend I broke it off with after 2 years. I remember going somewhere with him during the summer. I had already decided it wasn't gonna work out and I couldn't believe he didn't realize how bad his behavior towards me had gotten (he was borderline abusive, not physically but mentally/emotionally, big time). There were even specific incidents that were pretty awful, and all I could think was, "how the he!! does he think it's OK to treat me like that?"
So.. anyway.. we were at a museum or something with his parents, and I bought something in the gift shop. I don't even remember now what it was. He didn't see me buy it and it bothered him - and his need for constantly having control over me was one of the things that pi$$sed me off about him - so when he took the bag from me to see what I bought I took it back and wouldn't let him see it. I of course did it "playfully" to avoid the tirade of verbal abuse that I knew would happen otherwise. Then he asked me if it was a "secret Christmas present" for him. I can totally see NOW, as the LBS, why that would be a normal question to ask in an R. But as the "WAS" in the situation, my immediate reaction (though I didn't SAY it) was "WTF are you crazy?? There is NO WAY I'll be anywhere near you at Christmas time... yuck yuck yuck I can't wait to get rid of you so I don't even have to THINK about that." I think I broke up with him the next day.
I didn't even remember that moment until recently, when I was thinking about that "future plans" question.
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2. H has some real issues with not having felt appreciated by me....for example...I read Love Languages and realized H's love language is gifts/cards and words of praise. That is not my love language so I wasn't good about giving it to him. He is going through some stuff at work right now and has been having interviews...since I know his love language now and I want him to feel good about himself I was thinking of sending him a card with some words of encouragement. Is that too much??? Will he think it insincere?
Ahh yeah, the 5LL is an eye opener isn't it? I read it and pretty much slapped my forehead going "Duh how did I miss THAT?"
You can't make him feel a certain way, or know what he'll think of it. But, a card (like one you'd send to a friend) might be worth trying. It is a little pursuit, but you could try it and see what happens. As long as YOU know that it's sincere, that's all you have control over.
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3. What the hell do I talk about with him so that I can keep my mouth shut about R???
Anything else! The weather, your daughter, whatever's current on the news, whatever info he might want to share about his life (don't push, but you can certainly encourage him to talk about whatever he does "offer" about his life).
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4. Should I continue to invite him for dinner periodically even though he always turns me down? This is so hard because I'm afraid if I stop he will think "see I knew she didn't really care about me...when the going got tough she stopped".
I'd stop inviting him - chalk it up as something that's not working.
You can't control what he thinks about it.
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5. I have this same question about the sex....H's BIGGEST complaint was lack of interest in him sexually...if I don't show interest will he think I haven't changed? When we have sex it's the only time he acts "normal" to me...of course right after things go south.
This is pretty typical... he gets close then pulls away.
This is always a very tough question. If he's receptive to it when you show interest, I think it's OK sometimes. You can also show all kinds of interest without "going all the way" so to speak. Flirt like crazy.
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6. Should you really not believe what they say??? I mean damn...he told me he never sees himself coming back...those are some strong words and they hurt like hell.
I know... they do hurt. That's why you don't talk R if at all possible!
Believing what they say.. to a degree, I guess. I mean believe him enough to validate and empathize with him. It's true - right now, he does not see himself coming back. It's his perception of the current situation. Doesn't mean he won't change his mind, though. It just means that's where he's at right now.
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7. My DB Coach said there is a tipping point in this type of situation where the 2 steps forward, 3 steps back pattern changes and it's 3 steps forward 2 steps back...how the hell do you know when you are getting closer to that.
Detach a lot more, and it won't matter nearly as much. Knowing that you're creating a happier, healthier, stronger "you" makes his actions matter less. And you'll be able to appreciate the forward steps without obsessing about them.
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8. What actions should you be encouraged by vs. just deluding yourself into thinking things are a good sign.
Same answer as #7...
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9. Nik? How the hell did you do this?????????
Good question.
If I think about the big picture, my answer is "I have no clue how I made it!!"
But when I break it down, it was time, patience, support of a LOT of wonderful people... more patience.. and following DR as best I could. 180s, GALing, doing more of what works and less of what doesn't. (with lots of trips and falls along the way... but keep getting back up!)
Me 35, H 38; Together 13.5 yrs, M 7 Bomb 1 10/07/06 Sep'd 1/14/07 - 4/15 Piecing: 4/07 - 9/07 Bomb 3 10/11/07: Never loved you, let's separate 2/08 slowly improving 7/08 Piecing (7/25/08 rings back on!!) Current thread
Nothing much to report here...spoke to H a bit on the phone...kind of had R talk. Got on the subject of sex...I was flirting a little....he said sex is too confusing. I asked him what was confusing about it...he said it made him "emotional". I decided I shouldn't pry and just said...I know what you mean.
Lord how I miss a man I took for granted for so long...I feel like someone took my blinders off and I looked around and realized all the good I had in my life I let slip away. Not feeling sorry for myself...I know it's up to me to put my life back together but feeling very melancholy....probably because I'm by myself cause D is at a sleepover...I think I'll go read a book or something.
