So I married a sex addict...

[happycamper]

You know I just think he is so used to having ow(s) when he is with me that he just 'forgets' that it will hurt me!

Went to STD clinic today (just happened to have a free morning without the children). Didn't realise just how thorough they would be... results in 10 days. Dr and nurse were lovely. She referred me to a psycho-sexual counsellor.

[happycamper]

Grant,

thanks for your encouragement. I was looking for clarification on one thing though, wondered if you might be able to help.

Been reading Patrick Carnes's 'Out of the Shadows', and in it he talks about one of the addict's core beliefs being 'No one would love me as I am' (ie if I told the truth about my secret life). If I detach from H, more than detach, I act in a way so as not to enable or condone his behaviour (really withdrawing my support for him), am I not reinforcing this erroneous core belief? He has revealed himself to me, and now I am rejecting him?

Any thoughts?

Or anyone else who has SA background/experience of SAs?

[grant]

HC,
I think you show enormous insight and compassion in your question. I had wanted to say, as an aside, that although he needed to face the consequences of his actions, and to begin to accept that he was powerless over his addiction, there's no getting away from the fact that it's not entirely his fault, and he's suffering from an illness.

In answer to your question.........

As I see it, you can still support him, and the acknowledge the fact that he has revealed himself to you, whilst at the same time detatching LOVINGLY. I think that's the key there. Being truthful with you does NOT give him the right to use and disrespect you on a practical level. The house payment is a perfect example of that.

Not allowing him to use you to facilitate his lifestyle choices and his new R does not in any way negate your expression of compassion and sympathy for his issues.

I don't think you are saying to him that you're "rejecting him".
You are simply stating entirely reasonable boundaries about what you can and can't do for him. Remember, if an addict is to get well, he must want to do it for himself. No pleading or begging will ever get them there if they are half hearted about it.

And I do think that sometimes it is about "tough love".

If you had agreed to his asking for your help, do you you think that would have been "enabling" behaviour on your part?

What made you say no?

I think that deep down, you realise that you have to start doing things for yourself and for your own dignity. And also, that in so doing, you are detatching, and moving him one step closer to being able to do that personal inventory.

I'm not saying that it will all change overnight. In my case, when I realised the full extent of my wife's feelings and how she was truly done, it absolutely changed my world and my previous perceptions entirely. It forced me to begin to look at myself in a way that I had never done.

While my wife said that she was glad that I was trying to get help, she did not feel that she could support me, as she thought it might give me false hope.

I do however, see your dilemma. But I think you will start to know the ways in which you can continue to support him in his SA, and where the boundaries are.
Sometimes that's in the day to day stuff. Like NOT helping him pay for his house.

Also, I think sometimes as addicts, and as people, we just need to grow the F... up,
Smell the coffee etc etc.

Otherwise we just drift ever onward in the bubble, the fog, addicted to the tease, the high, thinking the next one will save us, and using other people as objects of our gratification.

I think the book will help you a lot. It was one which I read at the outset of my present journey, and it really gave me a lot of info on my status.

I know you mentioned that your H is also a counseller. Has he read this book?
I would certainly read it, digest it, and then pass it along to him if he's at all open to it. If he has been more open to you, and revealed that secretive shameful behaviour that he's been covering up and maintaining for so long, then perhaps it is a sign that he is becoming more self-aware.

I know when I read the first few pages, I realised that I had developed a problem.
Knowledge is power.

Take care now, and I hope things will start to improve soon for you.

I really think that your saying NO to him, was a real step for you.

[happycamper]

Many thanks for the time you take to reply to me!

If you had agreed to his asking for your help, do you you think that would have been "enabling" behaviour on your part?

What made you say no?

They say that co-addicts are prepared to put up with anything as they don't believe that they will find anyone else who will love them. I certainly put up with everything as I had a sense I was losing him and would do anything to keep him. Now I have lost him I am able to say no to things, and I guess that is why I did. I would be prepared to help him if it benefitted the children, but I can't continue to be 'parent' to him. It is his choice to leave the R, I can't help him overcome the consequences of his choice.

I think the book will help you a lot. It was one which I read at the outset of my present journey, and it really gave me a lot of info on my status. I know you mentioned that your H is also a counseller. Has he read this book?

The book has been a real eye-opener, and certainly explains the way our R functioned over the last 11 years. However, if H was on fire and I made the suggestion to put it out he wouldn't. I have no influence on his life whatsoever, so all I can do is mention that I had the book (which I did). He looked at it, and saw the 'Levels of Addiction' which he didn't really like.

He did get an old copy of 'The Casanova Complex', which he does relate to and had years ago. When he was here at the weekend I flicked through it and it looked very interesting (I think it's more about SLA and less about the more deviant sides of SA). I was disappointed when he left to go back to his other life as I wanted to read a bit more - but I should have known... he left it here!!

Thanks very much Grant, I really appreciate your input. Must catch up on your own situation.

[happycamper]

Feel horrible at the moment. His new R seems to have hit me extremely hard. He also seems to have no understanding of how much it hurts me (meant to mention that to you Grant!). Like asking if I could run his house payment through my account. And today, he just casually mentions that he is going away for a long weekend at New Year, is that ok?

What's it got to do with me? He doesn't have to get my permission, but the fact that he is asking me is letting me know that he is taking her away for a romantic New Year's Eve. He's not a mean person, I don't think he's giving me all the details to spite me; when I protested at the house-payment issue at the weekend, he was very apologetic.

He just doesn't seem to get it!

Maybe he's so used to doing these things without me knowing and without apologising that he forgets that I know now and it hurts!!

I can't bear to talk about her. I don't want him to mention her to me, I don't want to hear about his R with her, I don't want to hear him speak her name. I feel childish and pathetic.

I never thought I would say it but I never want to see him again.

[grant]

Oh HC,
I can so relate to what you're going through right now. I was at that point about a month ago, and it is so painful and difficult to cope with.

What I did, was to tell her in an email, in a non-confrontational way, that I could and would not listen to her constant mentioning of OP. I said something like......
"I'm sorry if I seemed to react negatively the other day, but when you talk about OP to me so often, and in such detail, I feel hurt and disrespected."

I think you need to find a way to make clear to him, that while you'll maintain a friendship for your children, you simply won't listen to him rattle on about OW, what they're plannning etc. He has got to appreciate that this hurts you deeply, and if he has any connection with your reality at all, he'll see that and back off.

Perhaps, as you suggest, it's not intentionally spiteful, and it's maybe because you have put up with everything in the past, that he's not able to appreciate the effect he is having on you now.

I have struggled with the same thing with my wife. She would talk about him, play songs from their High School days, even outwardly deliberate on whether they were compatible as zodiac star signs. It all became too much to handle, and there comes a time, that you have to make some sort of stand for your own dignity, self-respect, and sanity. She has never been mean or spiteful to me in our 20 years together, and it's a tough thing to deal with.

But I reckoned I didn't have anything to lose. Michelle talks about "walking on eggshells", which is something I was doing. It was easy to see why, because I blamed myself entirely for the break up of our M, and I was kinda prepared to almost put up with anything because of it. At least I thought I could until I got to the point where THAT part of our interaction was destroying me, and sabotaging my efforts at DBing. It was scary saying it to her, because I thought it would make things worse, but in actual fact, I think she respected me just a little for not be willing to listen to it any longer.

I thought also about this, that it might be something to do with the fact that they have a long term relationship and friendship with you, and they are just so used to sharing and having conversations, and generally being comfortable enough to be open with their thoughts. But principally because I think "The Fog" has descended upon them, and they are kind of in a bubble. I believe that sometimes they really are not aware of the pain that they cause until you point it out to them. Like you said, when your H was very apologetic. It's so easy to think "Oh come on, surely you must have known that was going to hurt me".

Maybe it's this new found, openly expressed honesty that they have, that allows them to feel that it's okay to bombard us with information we don't need to hear.


Also, they are in the throes of a new R, with it's own inherent addictive qualities and mind bending effects. They don't want move away from that at the moment, because it's their latest bit of joy in their lives. Just know that we cannot directly affect that right now. I think we just have to accept that has to run it's course, no matter how much we intensely dislike the idea of it.


They don't seem to get it......... lol

Don't feel childish and pathetic, (though it's normal, entirely justified and understandable). Take control. Tell him you don't want to talk about her, don't want to hear her name. Set boundaries. He will respect you for it, and you will feel just a teeny bit better for it too.

It's interesting about the SLA book, and also what how he reacted when he looked at the Shadows of the Net levels of addiction. I would imagine he wouldn't like it. It's a hideous thing to recognise the symptoms of your disease, so graphically and undeniably laid bare before you. When you're in denial, you run from that stuff pretty damn quick. Anything but confronting your demons, and to look at the behaviours that you have pursued. It's much easier to deny, put aside, and continue with the habits that have formed the mainstay of your life, for better or worse.

SA is every bit as addictive as alcohol or heroin addiction, and to confront it, is for many, the very last port of call.

I know you're hurting and that's why you're saying you never want to see him again.
This too will pass.

Pray for patience, courage and strength, and most of all, for the knowledge of God's will, and the power to carry it through.

Most of all, try to attract positivity to you, by not allowing yourself to spiral into hopelessness and negativity. Try to claim the day to be happy and content, even when your heart is breaking......

It will draw goodness toward you, and back into your life.

I admire your tenacity and strength in even being able to interact at all with H, and I think I have said before, that he is a lucky man to have you in his life.

I think about what you are going through and I really want to help in any way I can.
But I'm no expert, these are just my experiences, and some of the stuff that has helped me.

God bless.
Grant

[grant]

Hi HC,

I was just wondering how you're doing.
I expect you're just getting on with the day to day.

Just wanted to let you know that I was thinking of you.........

[happycamper]

Hi Grant

Thanks for checking in. Feeling better today. H came round for a little bit yesterday (he was in the area) and he could see I was struggling with him.

Incidentally, I just can't do the DB thing of being all cheerful with him, no R talk, etc; to me that just reinforces the whole co-addict behaviour of being able to cope with anything just to keep your addict with you. H doesn't want to be with me, I don't want to be in a R with H as he is, I don't think it's the right thing for me to do to behave in such a way as to win him back. I can't pretend I'm ok with it if I'm not.

Anyway, he came over and I was very upset. He was sad to see me that way. I explained that him getting a flat with her and going away for the weekend with her made it much more real. Before I think I just thought that he was with me, but having an affair with her, which I could cope with (although in a very 'sick' way). Now their R is more serious, it is sinking in for me, and I am not able to handle it.

I said that I didn't want him to mention her name, no details of their R, didn't want to see their flat, didn't want to go in his car (where she sits) anymore. He was very understanding, and didn't realise just how bad I felt, as I had been ok upto that point. He said he felt sorry I felt so bad.

So he went, and I carried on in my normal way.

Found a couple of really helpful bits in my reading which helped alot.

1) 'The question you should ask yourself is, "Would you want him so much if other women didn't?"' (from Casanova Complex) No no no no no no no no!!!

2) 'When a divorce occurs [after an affair], it is because the infidel can not escape the affair in time or cannot face going back into a marriage in which he or she is now known and understood and can no longer pose as the chaste virgin or white knight spotless and beyond criticism. A New Yorker cartoon once showed a forlorn man at a bar complaining: "My wife understands me."' (from a Psychology Today article). I literally smacked my hand over my mouth... bearing in mind that H could only tell me his stuff after we had agreed to separate...

That last one gave me alot of peace. I don't think he can come back to me now (not without being in recovery at least). It helped me to understand why he says he loves me still, thinks I am wonderful, wants to be good friends, even flirts at times, and yet doesn't want to be married to me. I didn't understand it before.

So, what do you think? Make any sense to you?

Going to post on your thread now, because we have something in common...!

[iamlost]

2) 'When a divorce occurs [after an affair], it is because the infidel can not escape the affair in time or cannot face going back into a marriage in which he or she is now known and understood and can no longer pose as the chaste virgin or white knight spotless and beyond criticism.

You know, I've thought about this in my sitch, too. My H is very much a person, because of his family background, that thinks if something is broken, it cannot be fixed. ("Don't even bother! It will only cause more pain to prolong it!") When he moved out and had an EA, and I found out about it, I think it erased what small chance we had of reconciling in his mind--because he had messed up too much to go back, I think he felt like. Not so much an issue of my forgiveness or deal-breakers, but his own.

Interesting...thanks for that, HC.

[iamlost]

How are you, HC? Off planning your party?