Is it just sex....or more?????

[GoingForward]

One more thing:

Regarding the "YOUR" cupboard thing.....Try not to let his anger or frustration get to you. He may sound pissy (HIS problem entirely), but try to remember that he at least asked if it was ok that he get what he needed to get from the cupboards. IOW, look at it as him respecting your space.

He already knows he isn't living there. He doesn't need to be reminded either.

(((CW)))

[NikB]

Hi Changed Woman - posting to you as you asked. I can't tell what your whole sitch is (small hint - it really helps if you keep all your posts on one thread until it locks, makes it much easier to keep up with you).

Based on this thread and your recent posts, I'll try to offer some feedback. I see that you're getting lots of great thoughts/ideas from others too, which I'm very glad to see.

I saw your question on Trixi's thread, too. So that everyone can see what I'm talking about, here's what I posted to Trixi (and a number of others.. sorry if this is a repeat for some of you!):

Credit completely and totally goes to Oldtimer for this..

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...true#Post679252

Particularly:

"Did you ever know someone, maybe in elementary school, maybe in a job, that *really* wanted to be great friends with you, but you didn't want to be that close to them? This person would have been OK as an acquaintance, maybe someone to go out with after work for a drink occassionally, but was not a person that you wanted to have a heart to heart convo with, ever. This person seemed to need you, seemed a little clingy, a little pathetic and very sad. Even after they quit asking you to do stuff all the freaking time, they always looked up expectantly as you made your way toward the door for lunch. You could always perceive the slight hurt in their eyes when they overheard what you did with friends over the weekend. This person was always just waiting for you to adopt them as a close friend. This person did sweet things for you without putting any demands on you -- bringing you a cookie, telling you about a good airfare to someplace you want to visit, offering to dogsit when you went on vacation, getting angry on your behalf when your boss snarled at you... Do you remember the cloying suffocation you felt just being around this person? The stress of having to deal with this person's emotional neediness day to day? Sure, they weren't asking you to do stuff all the time anymore, but you could *feel* their desperate desire for a pal? Ugggghhhh... Exhausting. Then there is the anger and resentment that comes from having to live with this unwanted burden. The funny thing is, the person would really have been OK and you can see why some other folks in the office have no problem with that person as an occassional after work drink buddy. If only the person would back off and sincerely quit being the best friend in waiting, you'd probably be fine with them. But NO ONE likes someone who insists on standing in a more intimate R with them than they want with that person.

So many people here insist on playing the loyal committed spouse offering unwavering love and support which totally ignores the WAS's desire to have a less intimate R with that person. WAS's no longer WANT a husband-wife R with the LBS, yet the LBS's, mired in denial continue to thrust it upon them, pretty much guaranteeing the demise of their M and a lack of progress on themselves.

To really respect someone's feelings that is pushing you away, you need to give them at least as much distance as they are taking from you. Probably more to give them decent breathing room. This doesn't require closing the door on your M or having an A. It requires getting on with your own life and being responsible by making sure it will be a good life for you regardless of what happens to your M so that you aren't needy and dependent with respect to having the M in your life. Otherwise, you are like that annoying, cloying, person in the office who suffocates you by jumping up to get coffee everytime you do."

And here's an example OT posted to me in my sitch when I was pushing H too much:

"Think about the water cooler example. The annoying office person is finally giving you some space, leaving you alone, has quit sulking that you won't do lunch with her, etc... You become more pleasant to the annoying office person. You talk about the weather. Occassionally you say "hi" in the hallway. You stop walking the other direction when she walks in the door. Then, she confronts you in your office. Comes in and shuts the door, and starts to lay out exactly what she wants if you two are going to continue to be best friends -- regular nights out, coffee breaks together, share secrets, plan a vacation together, sharing funny emails, etc... OMG!!!! I'd say your next step would be to get a deadbolt for your office and bring your own water."

And here's the question I'm replying to:

Question? Would it be a mistake to acknowledge to WAS that I understand he does not want to be in a R with me anymore and let him know I will back off out of respect for him...or just not say anything?

This is an easy one. NO do not tell him - NO R TALK!! Just do it.

It sounds like he is quite adament about not wanting much of an R with you. Give him what he's asking for. If you do it right and actually DO give him enough space I can pretty much guarantee that will be FAR more effective.

so tell me what you think about this. <snip> Does anyone think he was fishing???

Nope.. not going to tell you what I think about it, because it doesn't matter. You can't read your H's mind. Neither can I. I bet even HE would have difficulty with it right now.

On the whole cupboard thing.. I totally agree with GF, at least he ASKED.

GREAT job not "hovering" and being so much less clingy/needy - glad to see that.

Does anyone ever get sick and tired of dealing with their crap???? I mean seriously he moved out and I should feel bad for saying "my cupboards"? Sheesh!

Oh yes.. it's tough stuff to deal with! Get mad, frustrated, whatever, just don't let HIM see that. Act like someone he wants to be around.. if you can't, don't be there. For the record I thought that was pretty rude too and basically a small way to rub his nose in the fact that he left.

I told him it was up to her and asked him why he sounded pissed.

Don't ask too much about his life. If he decides to open up, listen and validate.. for example:

(and I know this convo is in the past which can't be changed - just pointing out some ideas for the future)

So I said...oh...that was rude...I'm sorry and I think for the most part I'm really nice to you...I just had a bad week.

This is the opposite of validating. I think the apology part was good but you should have left it at that. The "for the most part.." wasn't needed and basically invalidated what he told you.

He responds with I'm not the only one who has stress in their life...I said I realize that, but I did say I was sorry and I am so can you let it go? He says whatever and we hang up.

... no "but"... say "I know, I'm sorry, it's a stressful time" or something like that. At this point he wasn't talking about the cupboards anymore, he was talking about being stressed.

asking if I can get his crockpot together for him to pick up. I texted back "what???"

What didn't you understand about his request? You knew he wanted the crockpot. A much better response would have been: "Yes, I'll get that for you" or "I can't reach it but you can get it when you're here." Don't make it into an argument. If there's only one person "arguing" it stops pretty quick.

Me: Oh please could you let it go already...I don't think you realize how much it hurts when you remind me you don't live here anymore by slowly taking all your stuff....could you cut me some slack already?

... this tells me a lot.

A few thoughts for you. First let go of the idea that you can make him see, think, realize, etc. things. You can't. Second, you're assuming that's his intent - to "remind you" that he doesn't live there anymore. I doubt that's the case. I doubt it's about you at all - he simply wanted the crockpot.

BUT... that said, it IS OK for you to share your feelings on things like this. But make it about YOU not about HIM. "H, it hurts me a lot that you're slowly taking things from the house. It hurts because it's a constant reminder that you've moved out."

.. and, I think you REALLY need to solve this problem because it's going to continue to hurt you. Ask him to take all of his stuff, so this no longer happens.

I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that he couldn't take all his stuff yet because he's going to have to move again, something like that? (sorry if I'm mixing yours up with another sitch). If that's the case.. box/bag everything up for him, and put it somewhere out of sight for you (spare bedroom? garage?).

This is a pain point for you so TAKE CARE OF YOU by taking care of the issue.

(((CW)))

[Changed Woman]

Thanks, Everyone-

I seem to be doing a lot wrong. I'll work on getting better although I'm not sure that it will matter at this point.

Just got off the phone with H. He told me he doesn't want "us" anymore...doesn't want to come back to me ever...that he's finally finding the happy person he used to be and doesn't ever want to be in our R again. He said he struggles with feeling guilty about leaving but he was miserable always wondering why it was I wouldn't be intimate with him and cannot get over it. He said that he doesn't want to string me along any longer by having sex as "it's not going anywhere" and it's just confusing to both of us.

I think I may need to just resign myself to this and move on...I asked him if that's what he wanted me to do and he said it was the only fair thing to do since he doesn't want to spend any time with me right now and doesn't see a future for us together.

[NikB]

((((CW))))

You're making mistakes, we all do. You're also improving on them and that's the important thing.

Just got off the phone with H. He told me he doesn't want "us" anymore...doesn't want to come back to me ever...that he's finally finding the happy person he used to be and doesn't ever want to be in our R again.

What prompted him to say all this??

Also... this is actually a great thing that he shared with you.

Your old R is over, and that is what he doesn't want. He doesn't want "our R" AS IT WAS. Doesn't sound like it was all sunshine and roses for you, either... so, look at THAT R as truly over, done, and in the past.

Now.. what you're hoping to do, is get him interested in pursuing a NEW R with you.

He's getting back to the happy person he "used to be" - work on doing the same for you. And you never know.. the new and improved happy healthy him, and the new and improved happy healthy you, might just come together again. Does that make sense?

He said he struggles with feeling guilty about leaving but he was miserable always wondering why it was I wouldn't be intimate with him and cannot get over it. He said that he doesn't want to string me along any longer by having sex as "it's not going anywhere" and it's just confusing to both of us.

See? He IS confused.

So... he's told you he no longer wants sex. But you KNOW he is attracted to you.

Every time he comes over look great, smell great, be happy and attractive. Maybe even flirt a little... but don't give in. Respect his stated "wishes"... while doing things that will likely pique his curiosity and desire for you.

I think I may need to just resign myself to this and move on...I asked him if that's what he wanted me to do and he said it was the only fair thing to do since he doesn't want to spend any time with me right now and doesn't see a future for us together.

Two things about this. First YES the faster you resign yourself to the OLD R being over and focus on yourself, the better your future will be - with or without him.

Second, "right now"... "doesn't see a future"... that's OK. Of course he doesn't, if he did, he wouldn't have left.

Over time, if you're consistent with your changes and being a positive, happy, whole, healthy person on your own.. he may just be able to see a future with THAT "you" after all.

[NikB]

Here... I'm quoting these all over the place lately. These tips might be of use to you right now, too (especially 3, 4, and 9).

"JenJam's Top Ten DB Tips:

1. Don't panic. No-one ever made a great decision when in panic. You WILL panic, it's natural, but take NO ACTION when you are in that state. You have to do whatever it takes to calm down before you can tackle ANYTHING.

2. Don't depair. No-one ever got divorced in a week. Divorce, although too easy these days still take time. you DO have time to turn things about.

3. You first step is not to rebuild your R. Of course it's your ultimate aim but it's not going to happen first. Your very first step is to put the seed of doubt in WAS's mind. They have been unhappy and they consider D to be the answer. It's your job to show them that maybe there is an alternative. And I stress show. There is little you can do to talk them out of this beyond sympathising with their unhappiness and saying that IF D will make them happy then you won't stand in their way. If they are receptive to that, you could go further and say something like "we have had many good times together. Please think about this and make sure it really will make you happy. It's a lot to throw away".

4. Once you have said this back off and let them consider it. They need time. Your next step is GAL - no begging, crying or anger AT ALL. Your task is now part 2 of sowing the seeds of doubt about D - SHOWING WAS that things can be different. Now is the time to step back, put aside your ego and all thoughts of how unfair it all is (that just leads to bitterness, which is poison to a M) and REALLY look at yourself and decide if you are worthy of being WAS's spouse. I agree a M breakdown is rarely one sided but at this juncture it's more useful to look at your contribution. Look at yourself. Under a microscope. Decide if you've changed - are you happy with yourself, for you? Make changes. Now is the time for 180's. This stage also takes a long time too.

5. Time, time, time - it really IS on your side. The situation will not resolve as quickly as you hope. Don't compare your situation in terms of time with others'. It's very tempting to say "well, their situation is similar to mine and it took them 6 months so it will take me 6 months". Each situation is unique and needs its own timeframe.

6. Set your goals and decide on your first signs. This part took me a couple of months to really "get". I had to REALLY read chapter 6 of DR from "I'm discouraged" then go and review my goals before I saw any results.

7. Develop a duck's back - water slides off it. Patience + lack of panic = success.

8. Set goals for yourself as well as the R. Decide on what you want to achieve for you alone and reward your success. I know this sounds like step 4 again but it's more a case of making the changes rather than lamenting how awful you are. (I felt awful about myself for some time - bad and guilty. I did me no favours whatsoever, ended up with me feeling resentment. Much better to look forward than back - as Michelle says, look for solutions and take action)

9. Keep in mind that your actions could be frightening to WAS - you are not reacting in the way they wanted. They had this D all mapped out in their head and it's not panning out the way they thought. This has the added benefit that it leads them to think "if this isn't going the way I planned then maybe it isn't right", but it will take them a LONG TIME to come to this conclusion, to let go of their D comfort blanket. You can help them by being consistent with the positive changes. If you revert back to the you they find unacceptable then they feel perfectly justified in continuing with the D.

10. This is going to be tough on you. In the ideal world, couples in crisis would sit down together and negotiate together and accept that change was possible. In reality, you are very unlikely to resolve your problem in this way, almost certianly not in the early stages. You are not giong to have the luxury of a spouse who will listen to you and accept what you say.
You are going to be in extreme pain. You have to find something to soothe this. To have your WAS would work like a shot, but you ain't going to get this in a hurry. Do whatever it takes to comfort yourself - write a diary, see friends, go places, take the kids out if you have them, take exercise - anything. Your aim is to find something which makes you say "well, the rest of my life may be turning to sh*t but at least this part of it's OK". It acts as a time out for you and relieves the stress.

OK - as I said this is what worked for me - if you're reading this then maybe it's different for you. If you're reading this and thinking your own sitch is impossible think of this - would you give yourself false hope right now? Chances are you wouldn't. So why give yourself false despair? There are layers in a M crisis and you don't get the benefit of seeing them all at once."

And Jen_Jam's last post here - just made earlier this week:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1572627

[NikB]

Geez my posts are long, sorry!! I hope they're helpful. (and that you don't regret asking me to post to you... )

Future ones will be shorter, just had a lot to share right up front.

[Trixi]

My H said something similar at the end of last year.
Brief synopsis-
*he moved out Aug 3rd, 2007.
*we went to a family friend wedding Aug 21st and he was all over me. Found out that same weekend that he had already been on some dates, but that I "wasn't that easy to replace."
*we were physically exclusive, but it was "ok" to see other platonically (according to him)
*By October things had gone really down hill and we quit 'seeing' eachother
*Mid-December'ish he said that we should file for D in January. And in fact, suggested we do it "online" so that it would be quicker and cheaper.
*January 08, he starts wanting to see me again
*March 08, he announces we are exclusively dating and he is "no longer looking for someone else"

When he made that "announcement" he also told me he had slept with two other girls. They were "half my age" but nowhere as "good" as me. He had thought he wanted that (some hot, young thing) but it turned out they couldn't compare to me. *sigh*

My point--what he said is just what he said today. GAL, invest in yourself. Remember Michelle says believe none of what they say, and half of what you see.

My H and I are still "dating" right now; but I am getting close to pulling the plug. I think the reason my H was all hot and bothered to get a D was because he wanted to go and have sex and not feel "bad" about it because, after all, in his mind, we were practically divorced.

One weird thing about my H is that even when he was anxious to get going on a D, he said that "nothing is forever, except true love" and "who knows, we could end up together in couple years." He did say at a couple different points that he 'didn't see us working out' right before the bigger announcement of wanting to file in January.

SallyM had a VERY interesting story. Her H had an OW. Chased her (Sally) around for sex a couple times while they were separated. SallyM detached and got on with her life. Her H was ready to file, SallyM was sad but detached enough to keep moving forward. Her H came back to her. It looked like it was over, but he came back. Of course, he also could see that she was moving forward because he had found this board and had been reading what she wrote, but in her case, she wasn't trying "tactics" or "stratedgies"-- she was just taking care of herself.

Anywhoo-your H has stuff he needs to work out. You can take this time to work on you; finding out who you are, etc.

((CW))

[Changed Woman]

Thanks, Ladies....you are all so helpful.

NikB - what precipitated the convo we just had where he said he didn't want to ever be back together was that (please no 2X4s I know what I started was wrong...I'm a slow learn) I brought up the fact that he seems to be calling D's cell phone instead of the house phone and I asked if it was to avoid talking to me. He said no but that's what I do when he has D. I told him I do that because I don't want to bother him. So he says the following:

Him: I'm gonna throw something out there and then I don't want to talk about it again for a long time.
Me: ok
Him: Here is what I've been thinking....you told me some guy at work asked you out (a guy at work did ask me out and he has the same name as H) and then a couple of times you say you accidentally called me...I think that this guys name must be next to mine in contacts and you are meaning to call him when you accidentally call me. You are so hot and cold with me it makes me think when you are cold things are heating up with this new guy.
Me: You do understand how ludicrous that sounds right?
Him: Not really and it's none of my business anyway...I left but I wonder about it.
Me: Ok well may I respond?
Him: Yeah
Me: Ok the guy at work is a manwhore and I would never even consider dating him. I don't have his phone number nor do I want it so it's not in my contacts. The couple of times I accidentally called you it's because either I pressed your speed dial out of habit and then quickly hung up or because when I was scrolling through missed calls I inadvertantly hit the dial missed call button on my phone. If I seem hot and cold it's because I truly want to be all over you when you are around, but I'm starting to lose respect for myself as you treat me like gum on the bottom of your shoe so I'm trying to get a hold of myself.
Him: I have never treated you like gum on the bottom of my shoe...I had you on a pedestal for years.
Me: Yes...during much of our relationship you did and I took that for granted, but I'm talking about recently. Last week after we had VERY intimate sex I wasn't even worthy of a goodbye kiss which hurt me very deeply. I realized then that I could never have sex with someone that didn't care about me as I felt cheap when you left. Can you understand that?
Him: I guess
Me: What does that mean?
Him: I didn't want to talk about this stuff...and I do hold on to things and dwell on them for a long time, but I'm sick of people telling me to "just get over it"
Me: I understand what you mean ...when someone says just get over it..it's like they don't have any true appreciation for what you experienced. When I say that to you, what I mean is...can you try and get past it...try and put it behind you.
Him: There are things I can't get over

At this point he starts bringing up things that happened YEARS ago...like 7 to be exact. We had gone through some trouble in our R and split up before during which I found out about him seeing another woman. Once he realized she was a psycho he came back and I was all too willing to take him until about a year went by and I started chatting on-line (I know totally dumb move). Anyway, I met this guy that was clear across the country and made up my very own soap opera. I told him about H's little affair and he sympathized...that wasn't good enough though...I made up HUGE stories about my life and would refer to H as ex H...at one point I told this on-line guy that H didn't have as good a body as this guy from work (which wasn't true...it was just part of my soap opera). Anyway, H had spy software on my computer so he saw the comments and refuses to believe they weren't REALLY about him...but rather his character in my soap opera. Oh lord...at this point you all must think I'm nuts.

Sooooo...these comments I made about "him" (but not really him....my story to on-line dude was based loosely on facts) kept running through his mind when my sex drive dwindled and he built up in his mind that I was attracted to someone else and WASN't attracted to him. As you can see H has low self esteem.

So convo today proceeds with me telling him I understand why you would feel that way...I probably would feel the same way, but I swear to you I love your body and those comments weren't about the real you. So he says:

Him: I just don't think there is any point in all this
me: Point in what?
Him: playing with your mind by having sex with you since I know I don't want to get back with you ever.
me: Not ever huh?
Him: No
Me: So I should move on
HIm: that's the only fair thing to do...I don't want to think about this stuff right now.....I made an appointment to go see a counselor (he would never do this before and I'm freakin out thinking it's going to be one that encourages him to move on)
Me: I just don't think it's fair that you can't see I've changed because you'll never spend any time with me
HIm: I don't want to spend time with you right now and it's too confusing for us and for D. I was miserable in the R and I don't want that back
Me: It doesn't have to be like that
Him: I don't think it would ever be any different....you are a chameleon and can change at the drop of a dime
Me: I am not...I've been working on myself and have been consistent for a long time...can't you see that
Him: I guess....I know you weren't the only one that made mistakes, but I'm angry that I used to love doing nice things for you...getting you cards, flowers...everything and I don't feel that way anymore and it makes me mad....this is not what I want from an R
Me: so you will find a new R then
Him: I don't want a R right now...I want to be happy with me and do the things I want to do when I want to do them.

Sooooooo..he then says he has to go.

What am I going to do...this seems so hopeless and I big part of me is really mad because I wasn't the only one that made mistakes...when I was having my issues with sex I tried to talk with him about it but he would never listen and believe what I was telling him. GOD HELP!

[NikB]

(((CW)))

No 2x4s... I kinda figured that was the case.

You both said a lot in that convo - now leave it alone for a LONG time. NO MORE R talks.

What am I going to do...this seems so hopeless and I big part of me is really mad because I wasn't the only one that made mistakes...

The only thing you CAN do.. focus on you, on what you can control. Don't even worry about the R, M, or H right now.

Did you read the 10 tips? Keep reading them til they sink in.

What have you done to GAL? What do you plan to do soon? What are you doing to take care of yourself?

It doesn't matter who made what mistakes right now.. THAT R is over. He doesn't want it, you don't want it. If you reconcile in the future it will be a NEW RELATIONSHIP.. but now's not even the time to worry about any of that.

[Changed Woman]

I did read the 10 steps and I will have to keep reading them for them to sink in.

I'm not really doing much to get a life...it sounds pathetic but I just don't feel like being around anyone. I've lost over 30 pounds since he left in June does that qualify as doing something for myself?

I know the old R is dead and I don't want that R back, but I can't stop thinking about how he won't give us a chance for a new one....it would kill me if he found some girl to "put on a pedestal" and moved on forever......

I think my problem is him not wanting the old R is ok...it's the not wanting ME that kills