Hi HC, I hope that I was able to give you some insight from another perspective.
" I had major sexual problems in the first 10 years of our R, and although they don't excuse H's behaviour, they certainly contributed to his insecurity big time."
It will have contributed certainly, and may have escalated his behaviour to the level it is at now, but please know ( and this is very important ), that this addiction will have been present in some form or another before you even met your husband.
In my case, I was fascinated by sex and girls from quite an early age, and this has followed me somewhat throughout my life. Many people will say that Porn is not a problem in itself, but it is when that, or other forms of acting out become compulsive and obsessive, and a substitute for true intimacy, that it can really escalate and cause huge problems in our relationships with our spouses, families, friends, work, etc.
Have you read any literature on the subject as yet? If not, I really urge you to either try to find out if there are any support groups for partners of SA's in your area, or at least read a couple of the Patrick Carnes books. It sounds to me like your H might be more of a candidate for SLA, (sex and love addicts). I must go back and read some more up on your sitch.
If he has had that many encounters (blimey, I don't know where he found the time), then it's fairly clear to see why you would consider your R to be abusive and a "bad thing". I would just say that people with SA are not necessarily bad people, just people who have done bad things.
I know deep inside that I am a good person, but my compulsion has lead to a deep tragedy in my life, and the ramifications for that are immense. I would pretty much give anything to change that now.
It's clear your H is not at that point right now, and I guess what I was alluding to in my statement about you continuing to validate him, you picked up on in your last paragraph above about not maintaining a position where you "enable". That's exactly what I meant.
I can't say whether your detaching would bring about enough significant change for a "safe" relationship" as you put it. For some, it really does take an earth shattering event to wake them up to the reality of their situation, and even then, it's an ongoing process of vigilance on the part of the addict.
That's where the 12 step programme and therapy is absolutely vital. If he does realise he has a problem, he will NOT be able to confront or heal on his own. The problem is that his life is completely out of control, and though it seems unbelievable that someone you love could do these things to you, it's kind of like he's living in a different world, with a different set of values, and he can do little except obsess about where his next "fix" of sex, love, attention, is going to come from. Even at the risk of his wife, family, and even his own life.
It's very difficult for "normal" people to understand this. I guess like I can't really understand why people get addicted to gambling or other activities. I can appreciate though, that it's not so much the addiction itself, (that's just the symptom of a much deeper malaise in his heart and soul) it's what lies beneath it all and WHY he's acting out. Most people bury those issues and never want to ever confront them as they are often deep seated, long held, and very painful and traumatic. Hell, sometimes they don't even know what it is in their past that might have caused them to fall into this trap. Was he abused as a child? That's often the case in SA, although not in mine. Like I say, everyone's different, but there are often parallels.
You asked about boundaries...... My wife has spent most of our latest convo's talking about OM, what he's doing etc. Because I have been acting "as if" and trying to be pleasant and upbeat (something that I had failed miserably at in the first months of our separation), I just took it on the chin, and listened. But I was so so deeply hurt by this, that I realised I had to try to explain to her that I felt disrespected and sad, and that I didn't really want to hear about OM, and how great he was. That frankly, is just B*&&ocks. No one should have to put up with that. It's strange how taking a stand on something, provided it's done in a non confrontational way, can really help your confidence and PMA.
Of course, having said that, now that she doesn't speak to me about him, I don't get any sense of where there relationship is at. But I know that I can't control that or affect it in any way directly anyhow. So I reckon I gained more than I lost there.
I guess I'm trying to say that if it hurts you so deeply that he talks to her or texts her when you're around, you should say so, and insist that if he wants to be around you, that must stop in your presence. I mean really, what do you have to lose? At least it might help your dignity and self respect, which I know will be at an all time low.
It's interesting that you say that unless he's working on his issues that you wont consider the prospect of reconcilliation, and please forgive me if I'm way off base here, but reading between the lines, even though a relationship with H fills you with fear ( and quite rightly in his present state ) it appears to me that you still love this man. I don't think you'd be here if you didn't.
If you do love him, I'm sure you will be sending out messages of availability and warmth to him. Now I know it's hard not to, but being warm, flirting etc will do nothing to make this guy want to change his life or his habits. It's all just too comfortable. Some might disagree with me here, but I think this bloke needs a bloody good dose of tough love.
People with a SA are slightly different, but many on these boards talk about the addiction of an EA, or PA. That compulsion, that obsession, I think is very similar to anyone with a SA.
I just don't think your H will ever really start to deal with his issues unless he feels he has truly lost everything. I know he will always be a father to his children, but I know that they too will have been affected in some way by his actions.
I could be wrong, I'm no expert here, but I think this all begins with you taking control of your life, and cutting contact with your H down to nothing more than pleasant cordial interactions for the sake of your kids. Anything more than that will just be enabling and will never make him take stock of his life. He has to make his own mistakes and be educated about the real consequence of his behaviour.
When my wife did it to me, I realised that I had lost everything than meant anything to me. Boy, is that a bitter pill to swallow, and it can move people to do remarkable life changing things.
Please do read the books. I think in conjunction with the wonderful advice and encouragement from the people on here, it will help you to move this whole thing forward. Keep DBing, but just be informed about the nuts and bolts of your sitch.
I am thinking of you Hon, and I wish you lots of luck.
me: 45 w: 43 Married 19yrs Separated 6 months 2 children Bomb April2008 OM/EA May 2008. Not filed yet.
And this is why we can be good friends - because the man has a problem. His whole self-worth system is based on sex, he's still looking for the lady to tell him he is a very 'special boy', just like his abuser. He's constantly looking for the perfect women, and he'll never find her. He doesn't think he will have a relationship longer that 3-5 years ever again.
The man has a journey that I don't envy one bit.
Originally Posted By: happycamper
I know that if they split up that won't change things between us. He has absolutely no intention of reconciliation with me. And yet there is the 2% of me that thinks I should be divorcebusting rather than accepting that it is over.
I don't think DBing is just about saving marriages--first and foremost it's about saving yourself. You ARE DBing by concentrating on you, setting boundaries, learning to be strong, being friends with your H. Honestly, your strength in dealing with what 200? one-night stands (I guess he was even cheating on the women he had longer affairs with?) is incredible. You have a capacity for empathy and love, for yourself and H, that is truly rare. You deserve all the best, so concentrate on you. And if your H manages to make a very difficult journey of actually figuring out how to love himself at some point, maybe you will be together again. Who knows? But YOU are the most important thing right now.
Concentrate on rewarding your amazing strength with happiness.
It is in the shelter of each other that people live.--Irish proverb
I have ordered one of Patrick Carnes's books (can't remember which one, one of the ones that was in the uk and wouldn't take forever to arrive!), thanks for that. You are dead right about H being a candidate for SLAA, sometimes the emphasis is definitely on the 'L' aspect of it.
And yes, abused as a child, by a woman (mum of a friend) who told him he was a very 'special boy'. He's constantly looking for people who will tell him he is 'special'. Very sad.
As far as boundaries are concerned, I don't think I really wanted to set any (unless it was really painful for me like the holiday) because it seemed that H was so intent on leaving me that I didn't want to encourage that any more than I needed to. Going away with him helped, I did think he might 'act out' with me, but he didn't, and I think it helped me to see that he was really serious about us divorcing. So know I feel abit stronger to treat him as a SA, read up on it, and deal with him in the way that is best for us both.
Originally Posted By: grant
Of course, having said that, now that she doesn't speak to me about him, I don't get any sense of where there relationship is at. But I know that I can't control that or affect it in any way directly anyhow. So I reckon I gained more than I lost there.
I know exactly what you mean! I had assumed that I needed to know, but perhaps I don't...
Originally Posted By: grant
It's interesting that you say that unless he's working on his issues that you wont consider the prospect of reconcilliation, and please forgive me if I'm way off base here, but reading between the lines, even though a relationship with H fills you with fear ( and quite rightly in his present state ) it appears to me that you still love this man. I don't think you'd be here if you didn't.
If you do love him, I'm sure you will be sending out messages of availability and warmth to him. Now I know it's hard not to, but being warm, flirting etc will do nothing to make this guy want to change his life or his habits. It's all just too comfortable. Some might disagree with me here, but I think this bloke needs a bloody good dose of tough love.
Yes, I do love him. And if I'm honest, I am very attracted to him right now. Can't see the stuff, only the charisma!
Originally Posted By: grant
I think this all begins with you taking control of your life, and cutting contact with your H down to nothing more than pleasant cordial interactions for the sake of your kids. Anything more than that will just be enabling and will never make him take stock of his life.
See what you mean. But I do still care about him, I want to be a support to him... but that is just what he wants. He wants me to be a good 'wife and mother', and have his mistresses elsewhere. You've certainly given me alot to think about. Thanks very much for your observations.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
I think you should save that last post somewhere, and everytime I have a wobble about whether I am doing the right thing, or whether I should even be on this forum or not, you can just re-post it!!!!! I think that is at least twice now you have had to tell me!
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
Say Hello, Wave Goodbye is one of H's current favourites, but I could never listen to it because it is such a sad sounding song. I always interpreted it as H saying goodbye to me. Then the other day I decided I would listen to it and have a good cry - and what d'ya know?!! It's my song!!!
Standing in the door of the Pink Flamingo crying in the rain It was a kind of so so love and I'm going to make sure it never happens again You and I it had to be the standing joke of the year You were a sleep around, a lost and found and not for me I fear
I tried to make it work, you in a cocktail skirt and me in a suit (Well it just wasn't me) You're used to wearing less and now your life's a mess , so insecure you see I put up with all the scenes and this is one scene that's going to be played my way
Take your hands off me, I don't belong to you, you see Take a look at my face for the last time I never knew you you never knew me Say hello goodbye Say hello wave goodbye
Under the deep red light I can see the makeup sliding down Hey little girl you will always make up so take off that unbecoming frown What about me- well i'll find someone that's not going cheap in the sales A nice little housewife who'll give me a steady life and won't keep going off the rails
Take your hands off me, I don't belong to you, you see Take a look at my face for the last time I never knew you you never knew me Say hello goodbye Say hello wave goodbye
We've been involved for quite a while now and to keep you(r!) secret has been hell We're strangers meeting for the first time, okay? Just smile and say hello Say hello then wave goodbye
Well, obviously it's about a man and a (female?!) prostitute, but I found some of the lyrics strangely empowering.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
Had a horrible w/e, suffering from PMT quite badly and felt just horrible about g/f (although she felt much more like ow). If I feel that if her R with H came after we split, she's g/f, if during my R with H, then ow.
They are getting a house together, and H asked if he could make a payment through my paypal account for the deposit (he would pay me back though...)!! I said
NO!
probably for the first time in our entire R history, I said no to him. I don't have to worry that I will lose him if I say no anymore.
Was reading a book about SA and co-addicts, and they said that co-addicts will often put up with anything from their Ps, as they don't really think they will find anything better. But, I've discovered I can't handle his R with the g/f... and it is such a revelation! The first thing I 'couldn't handle'!
Can you help me put down a deposit on our new flat? NO!
Would you like to see some pictures of the new flat? NO!
Will you be able to bring the children and come and see the flat? NO!
It's freaky!
Last edited by happycamper; 09/01/0808:59 PM.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
HC, Sorry you had a bad one. Believe me, I know how that feels, but here's the good thing.........
You felt like a victim before. Your self worth was so low, and like the book says, perhaps you were willing to put up with all this because you felt like you really loved him, and maybe didn't think you'd find anyone better.
But then you made a stand. It all begins with that first step. Saying "NO" to him is a huge turning point for you, and also for him. I guarantee you that this will have an enormous effect on him. He will be surprised and confused, and will force him to think about the consequences. He is living in a fantasy world, quite happy to hold on to the trappings of some of his home life with you, whilst maintaining and meeting his other perceived needs in this other R.
He had got to make some choices, and whatever he decides to do or not do, you will end up feeling better about yourself, and that Hon, is a very good thing.
It is freaky, but I think you'll find, enormously liberating.
Keep going, keep getting stronger. Detach. Lovingly, with dignity, and strength. Things are changing...... Just watch.
me: 45 w: 43 Married 19yrs Separated 6 months 2 children Bomb April2008 OM/EA May 2008. Not filed yet.
