H deep in A & MLC, need support 4 roller coaster!

[glamgirl]

Dawn I thought I saw a post somewhere that you were asking about how to get rid of the anger. A website called divorceasfriends.com really helped me. Now I am not suggesting the D part, but when you read the info I think you will understand and may give you more tools to work with your h.

I also continue to pray that God take that anger away. Many times I would have to walk away from h and go into my closet to pray, just so my interactions would not go sideways.

Go see the movie "Fireproof" when it comes out. I think you might see another side to your m.

[glamgirl]

Also Dawn I read one of your posts abour R talk. I am not sure if you are still having these types of talks, but I would refrain for now. If your h initiates then you just listen attentively, but you don't need to respond at the moment and can say something like h I really appreciate your concerns on all of this, let me do some thinking and I will get back to you. It seems your h is baiting you into these discussions and then they go nowhere.

[Dawn of Hope]

Glam,
Thanks for the suggestions! I will check out that website you suggested.

I also saw the info on "Fireproof" on one of the other threads on this board, watched the trailer, and didn't cry (thanks to ADs!) but figured I will have to go see it, probably alone if I don't have a sympathetic friend available to join me then. Hey, I know...we should all plan to see it the same night and then start a new thread to discuss it! How's that sound??

Regarding the R talks...I didn't think it was a good idea myself (at least for now), very anti-DB, and my DB coach agreed, but I had been wondering since I was reading this book ("Love Must Be Tough"). I think you are right about the baiting; I had not thought of it in those terms before. I don't really understand why he feels the need to initiate these little chats (although he *says* things like "I don't think we should just split up without discussing it," and then doesn't leave!), since from everything I've seen, he's still completely lost in the fog, and although *I* have changed (one way is that I no longer initiate R talks!), I don't think these conversations are going to get us anywhere good until *he* makes some progress too (starts accepting some responsibility for the deterioration in our M and cuts back on the spewing, at the bare minimum). I can't imagine that conversations that primarily consist of him telling me (as politely as possible) how horrible a wife I've been will help our R. I am certainly not afraid to admit it when I have done something wrong, but I will not accept blame for things I don't think were my fault (like his A...which he still hasn't expressed any remorse over, although that's not surprising since it seems to be continuing at full speed). Sigh.

You know, I never even liked the sort of roller coasters you find in amusement parks...much less the MLC kind. The merry-go-round is more to my taste...at least, the kind you can touch.

I did something tonight that was...maybe not a 180, but at least a 90, maybe a 135. I watched a movie at home. This is noteworthy, first because H used to watch movies ALL THE TIME--I'm talking one or two EVERY DAY--before OW came on the scene and he switched all his free time to her, and I rarely watched them at all; and second, because our TV/VCR/DVD equipment is in the basement, which is normally H's territory in the evenings if he's home...I won't go downstairs at all when he's in the basement if I don't have to, as I'm not eager to hear him talking on the phone to OW, which he does for hours every day (mostly in the evening). I did get proof that he goes to basement to avoid me...when I got set up and told him I was going to watch a movie, asked if he wanted to join me and he declined (which I fully expected), he packed up his laptop and went upstairs, away from me...I took a couple of snack breaks during the movie (love that pause button!), and during the second one (at 11 p.m.) he was on the phone with her. PTHHHHT! I wanted to grab the phone away from him and smash it (preferably on him!), but I controlled myself.

Anyway...it's now 1 a.m. and he was already in bed when I came up 45 minutes ago (quite the shocker...normally he's talking to OW until 1:30 or 2 a.m. or so...maybe being upstairs made that difference), so I need to get ready and go to bed.

Sigh. Why am I here again? I don't mean here on this board, I mean here on this planet. Just so I can be abused by my formerly-wonderful H, now reinventing himself as a piece of...well, you know? Sorry, I've just been kind of discouraged lately about the sitch, even though overall I'm doing okay. Tonight some friends asked us out to dinner, and we went (he was elsewhere all day, so we came from separate places), and I made it a point not to pay a lot of attention to him, as he hasn't so much as touched me in over a week, so I knew I wouldn't get a hug or kiss or anything unless he had decided to act like everything was okay in public, and I wasn't willing to get my hopes dashed. So things went as I expected, and except for us mostly ignoring each other, he acted like a perfectly normal person when we were with other people, and even in the car driving home (I got a lift to the restaurant with the friends) he was able to make normal trivial conversation with me, but as soon as we got home, I could see him shutting down against me again. It was a subtle difference, but quite clear to me. I have been thinking of Jack Nicholson's line: "Is this as good as it gets?" (from the movie "As Good As It Gets") 'Cause if it is, I might as well save myself the trouble and bail out now...and I would if it weren't for my belief that that's not what God calls me to do, and even if H doesn't honor his vows to me, I am still obligated to honor mine to him, because it's a covenant, not a contract. But I have to admit that I'm getting so TIRED of it all.

Sorry for the whining. Time to wrap up and go to bed. Comments welcome!

Peace,
Dawn

[glamgirl]

Dawn you are doing good. Continue to make changes for you. Try to figure out what was it that went wrong in the m in your h's perspective and if it makes sense work on those areas.

I was thinking, it would be best for h to be home rather than separated, but after reading your posts maybe I am glad h is gone to deal with his own issues. It seems like it would be tough in your sitch.

Only you can decide when enough is enough. Hang in there!

[Dawn of Hope]

Dawn you are doing good. Continue to make changes for you. Try to figure out what was it that went wrong in the m in your h's perspective and if it makes sense work on those areas.

I was thinking, it would be best for h to be home rather than separated, but after reading your posts maybe I am glad h is gone to deal with his own issues. It seems like it would be tough in your sitch.

Only you can decide when enough is enough. Hang in there!

Glam,
Thanks for checking in with me and posting! It's always nice to get a second (or third, or 30th) opinion!

Yes, I'm still working on me, and also doing what I can about the things he has complained about. Not changing as fast as I was at first (he once commented about that time period: "You changed practically EVERYTHING in only two months!"), and a little backsliding here and there, but not too bad, and I'm continuing to move forward. I am taking everything he says with an entire salt lick, but looking for the tiny nuggets of reality/truth buried within his MLC nonsense. Certainly would not suggest I'm doing it perfectly, but definitely much improved in many areas; to the point that the only thing he really complains about any more is all past stuff that I'm no longer doing, or that my changes were "too little too late" (sound familiar, anyone??) and that he doesn't know if they will stick. Hey, buddy, have you noticed that it's now been 11 months since I started implementing these changes? How long are you planning to give it?? Sigh. Still completely lost in the fog.

I thought I might mention that we actually had a few minutes of normal conversation tonight, which has been pretty rare in the last 10 months or so. Didn't last terribly long, and I had to encourage it a little (don't think I did anything pushy or anti-DB), but it was a definite improvement from the wary one-word responses I usually get. I am not holding my breath in anticipation that this means a corner has been turned, but it was nice.

Oh, by the way, Glam, yes, I think it would be a lot easier for me in a lot of ways if he weren't living here, but I'm not going to throw him out...for now.

Okay, 4:45 a.m., time to go to bed.

Peace,
Dawn

[Dawn of Hope]

Well, I get on this site and try to catch up with all the latest threads every day, but don't always post.

I am doing better in general in the last few days. I don't know if my ADs are working better (although I've been on the same meds since December, and same dosage for several months) or it's just normal fluctuation. I have actually started to experience brief periods in which I genuinely feel that no matter what H does, I will be okay.

I am struggling a bit financially. My client load is heaviest in spring and the first half of summer, so I had a fairly decent income for that period (I was staying even with the bills, anyway), but now it's scaling back (which is normal for this time of year) but the bills are piling up. I am trying to break some of my bad habits (procrastination and staying up wayyyyy too late being the biggies) to improve the situation. If anyone has any suggestions to help with those things, please let me know. Sometimes I think I've tried everything, but in reality I know that's not the case.

I am trying not to spend any of H's income myself, although I benefit from it as he does pay for the mortgage, utilities, and a number of other things. I have been paying for everything I buy (including, among other things, all of the household's groceries, consumables [paper products, soap, shampoo], and pet expenses, and all of my medical bills except dental). This all comes out of the income I have left after paying for my business expenses (I am a sole proprietor), and I'm pretty sure that income level is below the poverty level for one person--less than $10,000/year. I don't do retail therapy AT ALL; in fact, my shopping attitude is more like a man's--just as an example, I spend 98% of my time in sneakers, and I've been wearing the same pair for four or five years now. They really need to be replaced, as they have been hurting my feet for at least a year. I have always been like this...ask me about the time H *forced* me to buy new sweatpants. Or about the fact that when we first met, I was wearing my everyday sneakers, which had multiple holes in them, they were so old. He has at least twice as much clothing and three times as many shoes as I do, and he isn't a clotheshorse.

Well, don't know how I got so far down that track...didn't mean to get carried away. I am gradually improving with my attempts at detaching, one tiny step at a time. H just seems to spin and spin, and never go anywhere. I don't know what's going on with him and to some degree, I don't really care. I do still have a lot of anger and resentment that I still have to work through, although I don't think I've let him see much of that. The main impression I get from him these days (what little leaks out from behind his facade), besides the fact that he's totally confused, and completely lost in the fog, is that he doesn't quite know what to make of me. I'm guessing that's a good thing.

Anyone have advice or suggestions?

Thanks, all, for being here and supporting me.

Peace,
Dawn

[One Day]

Hi Dawn,

I haven't read your entire story, but just reading this I wondered if getting some new clothes and shoes in and changing your look a little might be a bit of a 180?

OD

[Dawn of Hope]

*WARNING: RIDICULOUSLY LONG POST!!*

Hi, Lisa!
Thanks for stopping in and posting to me! I've been posting on everyone else's thread tonight, and figured it was time to actually post on my own, and hope someone would respond!

When I read your post, I had forgotten that my last post had all that stuff in it about the old shoes and clothes and stuff! Yes, I definitely need some new shoes...I don't think a single one of my *six* pairs of shoes is less than about five years old! Sneakers are most urgent, as the current pair hurts my feet, and I hardly ever wear anything else. I've been waiting for finances to improve a bit, which they are just now. Hopefully I can go buy some new sneaks this weekend.

Anyway...I *had* to buy a few new things after I lost 20 pounds on the infamous MLC diet, because I was drowning in every pair of pants I had. Now I'm a size 2 (a.k.a. extra small, for you non-US folks), which I have no complaints about except that I have a hard time finding clothes to fit me...especially since I'm only 5'2" and apparently my waist is somewhat smaller than standard for my hip size. I know, I know...I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy for this problem! Just like H used to say that he wouldn't get a lot of sympathy for having a wife who hated to shop!

I went shopping in January, when I finally decided it was time to buy some pants that fit me, with a dear friend of mine, who has similar proportions (but is 5 inches taller, so she's a real stringbean), so she knows what to look for. And she LIKES to shop, and she is very encouraging and complimentary, so that makes it less annoying for me if I do have to set foot in a dressing room! I managed to find 3 pairs of jeans that fit (quite nicely, I might add!), and she persuaded me to buy a couple of tops, too...one of which was a long-sleeved turtleneck that is VERY clingy...it is the only garment I have with sleeves that actually allows me to show off the incredible muscles I've developed in my arms from three years of grueling weightlifting! When I finally appeared in front of H in this turtleneck, his eyes just about popped out of his head! (although he said nothing!) And then I said, "Well, I have a date, I'll see you later!" and I left! (I think he feels pretty sure I'm not referring to romantic-type dates, but it's one of my little ways of creating mystery!)

So, to NOT make a long story shorter, I have made *some* changes along the lines you suggested--I got my hair highlighted for the first time in almost 20 years (it's normally a really boring brown), lost weight, actually getting BELOW my ideal weight for a while (involuntarily, but that was a silver lining that came out of the mess), started wearing makeup regularly for the first time EVER, got a few new clothes, and started leaning more heavily towards wearing clothes that show off my rather hot little physique (if I do say so myself!); I wear lingerie tops with shorts to bed now (don't want to seem to be trying TOO hard, but want to look good--we haven't seen each other in the nude since the bomb, although we slept that way before, but for a while after that I was wearing baggy t-shirts on top; no more of that now!).

I think you are right in that I could certainly stand to upgrade my wardrobe a bit more. (I also have plans with my friend to teach me all the stuff I never learned about wearing makeup, so that should help too.) My work is on the messy side, so I would be foolish to work in anything too precious (I'm a lettering artist, working from an office in our spare bedroom, and prone to splashing ink on myself, even with some protective clothing). I'm rather an introvert, and I spend most of my time at home (although I've been working hard since the bomb on getting out and seeing people more, which is another 180 for me), and I'm just a jeans-and-a-t-shirt kind of gal, so my wardrobe is mostly pretty slouchy. I would be open to suggestions, though. All of my jeans fit me rather attractively now, and I'm actually looking to dress in a way that's more...um...sexy.

This is definitely a 180 for me. Before, I would occasionally wear more provocative stuff just for H (he really loved seeing me in that sort of thing...I have received a LOT of gifts that he bought at Victoria's Secret...now I know for a fact that he shops at places that specialize in plus-size lingerie, which would probably make a nice tent for me and a Shetland pony ), but I rarely wore anything particularly revealing in public. I don't know why, but it made me nervous to have other people pay attention to my body.

Now, except for wearing the lingerie tops to bed, I wear the sexier stuff when I go out in public (not TOO outrageous, though! I'm still a good girl!), and I LIKE getting that wide-eyed second look! (I've actually gotten hit on a couple of times since I started changing my wardrobe, which is very weird and uncomfortable for me, but I guess that's par for the course!) And there is no occasion for me to wear anything special just for H. As I have said, he sleeps in the same bed, but never touches me, except for usually giving me a quick peck goodbye. I feel like I have some contagious disease where he's concerned. So I try to get out and spend time with people who actually want to hug me and talk to me and make me feel worthwhile!

So, that's my probably overly-long description of where I am in that regard...does anyone have any fine-tuning suggestions about that? I'm sort of anti-fashion gal, as you may have gathered by now, but I would like to be as attractive as possible without sacrificing comfort, and it would be nice to give H a jolt (in a good way) while I'm at it.

I have INFINITELY more self-confidence and self-love now than I did at any time before I recovered somewhat from the bomb...at that point I figured out that what H was saying about me (and other things) was so completely unreasonable that there was no reason to hate myself any more (I figured there was no danger of me going to the opposite extreme and getting a swollen head...especially with H in it's-all-your-fault mode). I don't know if I've explained that very well, but basically he said so much negative stuff about me that I knew wasn't true, I figured out that there might actually be a lot of positive stuff about me that was, and I would be better off if I operated from that paradigm. So just like that, almost thirty years of basement-level self-esteem was switched off. I still fight the suicidal depression I've had all of that time, but I'm coming from a bit of a different place now. It's too bad I didn't have that eureka moment years earlier. I do think it helped to realize that, although you'll never catch my face on a magazine cover (I think it is very average), I'm in such great shape, and OW is so NOT (she probably weighs twice what I do, despite being 20 years younger), that H was doing more or less the equivalent of rejecting Christie Brinkley for...oh, Roseanne Barr, perhaps? Helped me to realize just how completely CRAZY his thinking is right now! OP is always a trade-down, right??

In other news, one of the credit-card bills came that covered the time when H was out of town for four days, about three weeks ago. I wasn't snooping, I don't think, because my name is on the account too, but I did open the bill and look at it. It appears that H took OW to the same B&B where we spent one of our wedding anniversaries. I had noticed that H always took OW to those big chain hotels (and not cheap ones, either!), and figured he wouldn't take her to a B&B, because it involves more personal interaction with the staff and other guests (usually) and they would have to work harder to avoid revealing that this was an adulterous relationship. H and I discovered B&Bs on our honeymoon, and have been staying in them whenever we have the chance ever since.

I did pretty well when I saw the bill, all things considered, although I was angry, but I was sort of expecting it sooner or later. You know, the longer this goes on (affairs), the more boundaries get crossed. For a while, I was thinking, if H ever brings OW here to our house, that's the last straw, and I'm going to have to just let go and tell him it's time for him to pack his bags. Well, he did cross that boundary, and I was pretty upset, but was mostly able to hide it from him (some of my anger leaked out around the edges, and I don't think he's done it since). Then it was, if he ever takes OW to someplace we went for a special vacation, I'm done. Now it's if OW gets pregnant (never mind that to my knowledge he has never admitted to anyone that he has had sex with her...I have seen proof that he has, but have not said anything to him about that). Truth is, it's hard to predict how you will feel and what you will do in situation x, y, or z with your spouse, until you actually experience it. As we all know...

I thought (as I'm sure most of us did) that if he ever cheated on me, I would be done with him; he would only get one chance. Well, he's on his third chance now, and I am NEVER going through this again unless God convinces me otherwise. I am not sure I would survive another ride on this roller coaster. I almost didn't survive the first two; I spent months after each of the bombs planning the perfect suicide, for hours every day. I started doing better when my ADs kicked in each time, but it's still been a long, hard road. Sometimes the only thing that held me back from suicide was the fact that I didn't want to make it easy for him to get rid of me and legitimize his sordid relationship with OW.

I still struggle extensively every day with anger and vengefulness and unforgiveness. I don't think I have let too much of that leak out to H, but I know perfectly well what's behind those locked doors in my psyche. I want him to suffer as much as he has caused me to suffer. I know that's not right, and I haven't done anything to bring it about, but I still feel that way all the time. I know I need to overcome these feelings, but so far I haven't figured out how. I need to check out that website that glamgirl mentioned, and I have a few books to read about dealing with these things.

Sigh. Why am I here again? Is suffering the point of my existence? Sometimes I wonder. Am I whining? I hope not. I feel stronger, but still very discouraged. Sad. Angry. Somewhat hopeless...although not so much for myself personally any more, but for my M.

I pray a lot. I don't always know what to pray, so in the absence of a better idea, I pray for God's will to be done in all three of our lives. I pray for all three of us to find God's perfect path for each of us. I pray for wisdom and strength and courage. I pray to know what the right thing to do is, and to have the strength to follow it through. I pray to have the right attitude about everything. I pray to be shown where I am wrong and how I need to change, and for the ability to change as needed. I pray for help in forgiving. I pray for a miracle of restoration for our M. I pray for clear direction, because everything so often seems fuzzy. I also pray for all of you on this board, that you be made whole, with healed R's, and that you walk bathed in the light, perfectly in line with God's best plan for you and your lives. I hope you will pray for me as well, if you feel so inclined.

I had a little lull in my workload for a week or two, but it is picking up again. Among other things, I am doing a *ton* of work for a stationery designer (through whom I get a large proportion of my clients) who is getting married herself in a bit over a week, and I know I'm not going to get paid full price for it (if much at all) but her wedding is going to be a major feature in a TOP wedding magazine, so hopefully I will get enough business through that avenue to completely justify all the unpaid work!

So now...must sleep a bit and then back to work! If you've gotten this far without falling asleep, I'd love to hear your feedback!

Peace,
Dawn

[MidwesternGirl]

"I still struggle extensively every day with anger and vengefulness and unforgiveness."

Okay, in order to see some changes in yourself and your situation you have to:

get rid of the anger and ask God for comfort
get rid of the vengefulness and definitely forgive, forgive, forgive

You said you prayed to God but you still struggle extensively every day with anger and vengefulness and unforgiveness. He wants you to have patience, forgive one another, treat your spouse and others kindly.

Make those beauty changes for yourself but right now the main thing is to do what I suggested because when you hang on to the anger, unforgiveness, etc., you get nowhere.

[Dawn of Hope]

Hi, MWG,
Thanks for stopping in! I like to think that I am not holding onto those things, but maybe I am deluding myself. I know it is right to let go of all that stuff, and I pray to be released from it, but so far it hasn't happened and I am not sure what else to do to move the process along.

Do you have any detailed suggestions on how to do that? You seem to be a master of this stuff! I especially know I need to forgive, because it is so clear that I can't be forgiven until I do (and I know I need forgiveness!), but I don't know how, and it doesn't seem to just be coming naturally, or even with work! I must not be doing the right thing here! Help! I'm tired of being trapped in these feelings, and I want to vanquish them! Please, teach me how to accomplish that!

Peace,
Dawn