Still waiting on books to arrive but it shoould be soon.
I have no contact with OM and his wife. We mixed in same circles but that has stopped. Occasionally see them in supermarket, motorway etc but no contact, nor has there been for years.
Today was awful. H rang me and questioned my integrity regarding our finances and business. I can appreciate him not trusting my ethics regarding the affair but we have beena business partnership for 20 years. not once have i ever taken anything that is not mine ( except affair ) and my focus has always on asset building for childrens future. I was so hurt. I hung up on him and i have not taken his calls.
Is he looking for another thing to bash me about. It is like peeling layers off him and underneath is another accusation. It knocks my confidence, destroys my day. I hate it. What now ?????
That stinks. I don't think your husband is looking for a reason to bash you. It's just where his head is. Speaking for myself, it was devastating, and it was hard to trust. I know that lack of trust is painful for the straying spouse, but ... infidelity is painful.
It's like neither of the partners want the pain, but somehow when one expresses pain or hurt, the other partner feels it more strongly. It can be like a slow downward spiral.
Quote:
I do avoid conversations on marriage all the time - to the point of hanging up on the phone because I dont want to hear him say that it is over.
I think the guidance is "don't initiate relationship talks." But if he initiates, you are advised to engage and respond. If he says things that are painful or stressful, you are advised to listen actively and hear him out.
Of course, there may be wisdom in avoiding all relationship talks completely, for a short while. But consistently refusing to engage is passive aggressive.
Quote:
It knocks my confidence, destroys my day. I hate it.
That REALLY stinks. This sounds fluffy, but. . . think about what's great about you. What are your good qualities? Seriously consider them and explore them. Think about the people who value you, and why. Meditate on your own self-worth.
Why would I say this? Because that "knocking you down" will not go away very quickly. Your husband's hurt may go on for a while, and you seeing it (like when he hinted about lack of trust in the business) will push your guilt buttons. He may not be doing it on purpose, but it hurts you nonetheless. And if you are beaten down, you are in no shape to restore your marriage.
To fight against getting dragged down, you need to build a habit of self-encouragement, of self-love. Despite things you have done that are not the best, you are basically a good person, and you have a number of good qualities. You are gifted and talented and valuable.
We all make mistakes. But the best of us don't let our mistakes bring us down. The best of us realize that one mistake does not define our lives.
When it's time, have a look at your own mistakes, an honest look, a non-blaming and non-accusatory look, and take responsibility. You don't need to do that right away. But at some point, when you're ready, have a good long look at how it all happened. This is not to tear yourself down, but to take an honest look. That's why you don't need to do it right away. First you need to feel strong about yourself. Then, and only then, have a look. Looking deeply, you can understand what it was, how it happened, and how you would like to conduct yourself in the future if you ever find yourself in a similar situation.
(If your analysis is "it just happened. It was a stupid mistake." ... then you're not going deep enough. It doesn't just happen. you would need to be a little more honest with yourself. . . )
It is one thing to regret the consequences and the fallout of a mistake. Nobody likes to get caught and "punished" for doing the wrong thing. It is another thing to accept responsibility for one's own failings internally and independently. This is a quieter sort of regret, a more heartfelt and honest sort.
Did you send an apology letter to the OM?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
I have not read the books and am concerned about the apology letter to OM. Why would I do that ?
I have taken responsibility for affair and have taken more than my share. After I was caught and we saw H councillor he readily agreed to partial blame of marriage deterioration. Now 4 years on I carry full blame as I allowed infidelity to be a choice. H sees none of the bad marriage before affair - he just sees the A.
I am so lost. What do i do. I have even taken responsibility of marriage breakdown to the family and our kids and friends. Although they do not know all of the A they have heard me defend H and his actions claiming he has his reasons. i say this because they are angry and sad that H chooses seperation.
After my horrible day H turned up at my business where he is security on Thursday night as if nothing had happened. He asked if our girls wanted to go to rugby and dinner with him and his mum on Saturday night and then he tentatively asked if I would like to go. i said thanks but no thanks --- Was this a mistake?
Would not going make it seem like he could question my honesty and integrity without apologising for it once it was found to be unfoundered ? How much more should I take.....
am concerned about the apology letter to OM. Why would I do that ?
Yeah, I think maybe 4 years on, an apology letter is not really the most appropriate thing. Sorry I misunderstood the timeline.
Quote:
After my horrible day H turned up at my business where he is security on Thursday night as if nothing had happened. He asked if our girls wanted to go to rugby and dinner with him and his mum on Saturday night and then he tentatively asked if I would like to go. i said thanks but no thanks --- Was this a mistake?
Sorry you had a horrible day.
Not sure why you would decline the invitation from your husband? If you don't want to be separated, then why not positively respond to his invitations?
Quote:
Would not going make it seem like he could question my honesty and integrity without apologising for it once it was found to be unfoundered ? How much more should I take.....
Did you decline the invitation as a way to demonstrate your disapproval of his behavior, of his questioning your honesty and integrity? Or you just couldn't stand to be with him after he questioned your integrity?
If either is true, then (and please forgive me if this is ungentle)your behavior seems either passive-aggressive to me, or very sensitive. Maybe it is a little of both. Either way it will not bring him back.
----
Wanna try a thought experiment? Imagine yourself to be a rugby player. You have played rugby for years, and you are very good at what you do. Over the years, your career has been steadily improving. You have the statistics, showing very high performance relative to others in the league, and also showing improvement over time. A few years back, you had a down year, you were injured, and your performance was way off what it normally would have been. But since then you have been healthy, you have returned to your normal level of performance, and you've even exceeded it. Today, you feel that you know yourself well, and you are very confident that you are "a very good rugby player."
Now suppose someone comes to you and questions your ability as a player. In your mindset, you know it is not true. You are supremely confident that your record speaks for itself. What do you do? Probably you don't even respond to that sort of comment or question. Just dismiss it silently. Without a further thought. You wouldn't even dignify it with a response.
Now suppose someone whose opinion you trust says the same thing. Remember, your confidence in your own ability as a rugby player is solid. How would you respond? You would probably think to yourself - what is it about this person that would make them say these things? Why would they have such a different perspective than I do on this situation?
If you wanted to discuss it with that person, you would probably even directly ask the person - what makes you say that? You would want to learn more. Or, if you didn't want to discuss it, you might just consider for yourself. Just think about it yourself and see if you can find a reason why that person would doubt or question your ability as a rugby player.
On the other hand if you were not so confident in your own ability, hearing doubts from somone, even someone you don't know and respect, might lead you to react negatively - to argue, feel slighted or insulted, to act defensively.
----
I know you hate the fact that he questions you. I know. And you feel it is unjustified. His doubts are completely unfounded, and unfair to you. You have a good point. Why would he do this? How can he do this to you?
Regardless of the answers to those questions, it seems clear that for a positive outcome, one of you is going to have to be strong and rise above the difficult circumstances.
I met a wise old counselor who's first principle was: First you must restore the feeling of goodwill toward your spouse. You must have compassion and respect, despite all the bad things that have occurred. You must be willing to put the past behind you. For this counselor, Goodwill was the starting point.
Goodwill allows one to forgive the slights, to be more patient, to overlook the mistakes and the inevitable bumps in the road. Goodwill.
If you cannot find goodwill in your heart for your spouse, then maybe you need to find some goodwill and compassion for yourself, first.
This sounds sorta airy-fairy, but it brings me back to what I said earlier. You gotta feel good about yourself in order to respond positively to others. You gotta be strong FOR YOU. Love YOU.
Hi - I just read your original thread and you are exactly who I need insight from you for my husbands position.
I had the A . I lied. I clawed my way back from hating my husband to wanting to make a go of it 110 %. As i changed - he changed. What went wrong. Why cannot he forgive me. Am I dealing with a man with a crushed ego? I feel i have tried everything to win back a little trust and he seems to be getting worse.
As a man how did your WA make you feel. How did you get over that and see that your family and M could be happier than it has ever been. All our family an friends are devastated about our seperation but he does not talk to anyone or read. His world there are right and wrong and no grey areas. He held me on pedastal and i believed he relied on me for his happiness.
My distancing myself at the moment is also tied up with trying to shock him into reaising what he is giving up. i feel all over the place as well !!!
I am so sorry for the pain you are in. So sorry. I so much wish I could take it away.
But you know, I always wanted my wife. I always believed we had a beautiful future together as a family. I never got to the point where I didn't believe we could reconcile. Even now! Even now I think the possibility is there. But we are nearing final divorce settlement discussions. It is not looking good for the union!
So I am maybe not so much like your husband. I think maybe my wife is more similar to your husband than I am.
Quote:
All our family an friends are devastated about our seperation but he does not talk to anyone or read. His world there are right and wrong and no grey areas.
Same thing here! She drove the separation, filed for divorce, everything. Shocked everyone. At this point she is selling a story to everyone that I was abusive to her - this is the reason she needs to divorce me. Funny, she never brought this up once, until after she filed for divorce!
Look, my spouse checked out just like yours did. So I don't think I am like your husband so much. Yes, we share the affair part. But I think the affair is not the main, central fact. For me, in the beginning, the affair was the thing. I couldn't get past it. But it really isn't the main thing. I've come to believe that the main thing is the lack of commitment. My wife lacked the commitment to me, and to the marriage. The affair was just a side effect of that. She was able to have an affair (and do many other things), because she didn't really care for me.
Quote:
He held me on pedastal and i believed he relied on me for his happiness.
Well, ok, I can see some of myself there. Not so much that I relied on my wife for happiness, but she was the center of my universe, and to be honest, there weren't that many other planets. I mean, I didn't have a ton of friends, otuside of her. A few, but not many. Actually my best friend was the one she had an affair with, so that sort of cut my list of friends down pretty sharply. And as a result, I guess you could say I was too enmeshed with her.
After I learned of the crisis, I thought hard about what I wanted. the one thing I wanted was to preserve the marriage. So I worked at it, hard. I sought the advice and counsel of experts. I began meditating - I spent a ton of time meditating on how lovely my wife was, on how she was a delicate, precious spirit. I cultivated compassion for her in myself, day by day. Every morning I would do this, sometimes for 30 minutes.
I focused on the positives. I looked at my wife and weighed everything and decided, she was still pretty good after all. I bought a bunch of books and tried to learn from the experts how to get myself right.
One thing that helped me is I spoke with people, not just people on this forum, but in person - who had experienced the same thing. I spoke with people who were betrayed and then reconciled. I spoke with them and learned that it is possible to find a brighter future. They gave me hope.
But she never came back to me.
So I am not really going to bring you any revelations. I am more or less in the same boat as you, but my boat is much further downstream. I have no wisdom to impart.
---- Thinking about your situation, Four years ... it's a long time. Are you sure it is really your affair that is the catalyst here?
Could it just be an excuse? He's having his own moment, and he doesn't want to accept responsibility for it. So he blames your past indiscretions. It's an easy out for him. Also, being so long in the past, it is impossible for you to fix (conveniently enough).
I'm not looking to provide YOU an excuse, just exploring some of the possibilities. You might just about wring yourself dry trying to fix something that, in the end, is in his head.
So in this case, there may be nothing you can do but be calm, exude strength, and wait for him to get through his crisis of confidence.
----
Quote:
As a man how did your WA make you feel.
After the initial shock and hurt, I hit a period of sadness. Not quite despair, but a sense of grief for what I thought was such a beautiful thing, our commitment to each other. That stayed with me a long long time. 6 months or so? That was hard. I would have periods where I just felt soooo down, and it would come upon me suddenly. I felt like a teenager with my mood swings.
But later I looked at it as a challenge to me as a man. This happens to lots of people. Your family needs you to be a rock now, needs you to rise to the occasion. So eventually, maybe not soon enough, I got beyond that feeling. Then I looked at reconciliation as a project. a labor of love. Even a gift, a gift I could give to my family. If we could reconcile, I thought, this will be the greatest gift I can give to my kids. They will see what commitment really means - it is not an empty word, it means hard work and perseverance even through doubts and tough times. I thought that would be a nice gift for my kids.
But like I say, my partner did not share that perspective. I told her about the gift idea, and she scoffed.
---
If you think there is more I could say that you'd be interested in, I'm happy to share.
I don't know about shocking him but maybe showing him. Obliquely.
Get a life! as they say in the DR book. Do stuff. Have fun. I know, you don't feel like it. Your heart is in tatters. I know! But going out and doing new stuff, having fun, is the best way you can show your hubby that he is giving something good up.
(I don't do this enough myself, but I'm getting there)
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
I am so sorry for the pain you are in. So sorry. I so much wish I could take it away.
But you know, I always wanted my wife. I always believed we had a beautiful future together as a family. I never got to the point where I didn't believe we could reconcile. Even now! Even now I think the possibility is there. But we are nearing final divorce settlement discussions. It is not looking good for the union!
So I am maybe not so much like your husband. I think maybe my wife is more similar to your husband than I am.
Quote:
All our family an friends are devastated about our seperation but he does not talk to anyone or read. His world there are right and wrong and no grey areas.
Same thing here! She drove the separation, filed for divorce, everything. Shocked everyone. At this point she is selling a story to everyone that I was abusive to her - this is the reason she needs to divorce me. Funny, she never brought this up once, until after she filed for divorce!
Look, my spouse checked out just like yours did. So I don't think I am like your husband so much. Yes, we share the affair part. But I think the affair is not the main, central fact. For me, in the beginning, the affair was the thing. I couldn't get past it. But it really isn't the main thing. I've come to believe that the main thing is the lack of commitment. My wife lacked the commitment to me, and to the marriage. The affair was just a side effect of that. She was able to have an affair (and do many other things), because she didn't really care for me.
Quote:
He held me on pedastal and i believed he relied on me for his happiness.
Well, ok, I can see some of myself there. Not so much that I relied on my wife for happiness, but she was the center of my universe, and to be honest, there weren't that many other planets. I mean, I didn't have a ton of friends, otuside of her. A few, but not many. Actually my best friend was the one she had an affair with, so that sort of cut my list of friends down pretty sharply. And as a result, I guess you could say I was too enmeshed with her.
After I learned of the crisis, I thought hard about what I wanted. the one thing I wanted was to preserve the marriage. So I worked at it, hard. I sought the advice and counsel of experts. I began meditating - I spent a ton of time meditating on how lovely my wife was, on how she was a delicate, precious spirit. I cultivated compassion for her in myself, day by day. Every morning I would do this, sometimes for 30 minutes.
I focused on the positives. I looked at my wife and weighed everything and decided, she was still pretty good after all. I bought a bunch of books and tried to learn from the experts how to get myself right.
One thing that helped me is I spoke with people, not just people on this forum, but in person - who had experienced the same thing. I spoke with people who were betrayed and then reconciled. I spoke with them and learned that it is possible to find a brighter future. They gave me hope.
But she never came back to me.
So I am not really going to bring you any revelations. I am more or less in the same boat as you, but my boat is much further downstream. I have no wisdom to impart.
---- Thinking about your situation, Four years ... it's a long time. Are you sure it is really your affair that is the catalyst here?
Could it just be an excuse? He's having his own moment, and he doesn't want to accept responsibility for it. So he blames your past indiscretions. It's an easy out for him. Also, being so long in the past, it is impossible for you to fix (conveniently enough).
I'm not looking to provide YOU an excuse, just exploring some of the possibilities. You might just about wring yourself dry trying to fix something that, in the end, is in his head.
So in this case, there may be nothing you can do but be calm, exude strength, and wait for him to get through his crisis of confidence.
----
Quote:
As a man how did your WA make you feel.
After the initial shock and hurt, I hit a period of sadness. Not quite despair, but a sense of grief for what I thought was such a beautiful thing, our commitment to each other. That stayed with me a long long time. 6 months or so? That was hard. I would have periods where I just felt soooo down, and it would come upon me suddenly. I felt like a teenager with my mood swings.
But later I looked at it as a challenge to me as a man. This happens to lots of people. Your family needs you to be a rock now, needs you to rise to the occasion. So eventually, maybe not soon enough, I got beyond that feeling. Then I looked at reconciliation as a project. a labor of love. Even a gift, a gift I could give to my family. If we could reconcile, I thought, this will be the greatest gift I can give to my kids. They will see what commitment really means - it is not an empty word, it means hard work and perseverance even through doubts and tough times. I thought that would be a nice gift for my kids.
But like I say, my partner did not share that perspective. I told her about the gift idea, and she scoffed.
---
If you think there is more I could say that you'd be interested in, I'm happy to share.
I dont know how to do that quote thing so excuse me if you have to refer back to your response to me.
Absolutely your wifes had nothing to do with anything except a lack of commitment and respect for you and your marriage. For a long long time I did not see this. I thought the other guy was just what i was looking for in amte. It was exciting etc etc.
It was not until i decided to make a go of my marriage that I analysed what had allowed me to have A. I can tell you that is was exactly lack of commitment. I thought everyone else had these fab marriages and that I did not. Trouble is now I know that i did and it was my choosing not to see what i had in my H that blocked it.
HAVING SAID THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TERRIBLY WRONG WHEN ONE OF YOU LOOKS OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE. Choosing to have an affair is one selfish way of expressing it - bit like suicide I guess. You are wanting attention but you choose a negative way of getting it. I ask myself why did i not just pack up all my husbands clotes and throw them out and then take up with the OM. He was willing to do that to his marriage. I did not do that because deep down you are not sure or certain that your marriage is over. Then you get caught and I can tell you that I wanted so much to just never see my H again. I had no feelings for him . He was so devastated though I did not want him hurting himself so I toughed it out and it was tough. He wanted to be married I did not but he also wanted gory details and explanations and I could not be bothered giving them. But knew I had to.
So where your wife is concerned she has to learn that or her next relationship must go that way. Better that your around i think for her to see what she has given up.
I saw a bit of my H over the weekend but no progress made at all. We took one of our daughters to airport this morning and he just made a dig about a new dress I was wearing. Makes me angry. I actually got dressed nicely to look good for him. I do have my own business and I work really hard. He begrudges me anything.
I almost feel in the last week a move away from him. He is pushing me away. I cannot understand why he does not want to keep the family together.
The time to forgive is when it seems impossible to do so
To do the reply thing, I don't use the quick-reply block at the bottom of the page. I click on the "Reply" button in the post, and it brings me to a place where I can do all the fancy quoting etc. but really I have no problem reading your posts, so no big deal.
Quote:
HAVING SAID THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TERRIBLY WRONG WHEN ONE OF YOU LOOKS OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE. Choosing to have an affair is one selfish way of expressing it - bit like suicide I guess. You are wanting attention but you choose a negative way of getting it.
Absolutely, and i took it as a wake up call. Ok, what do WE do about this? I wanted couples therapy, I wanted HOMEWORK - stuff I could work on specifically. I read all the books that said "an affair is a symptom" etc etc. I wanted to treat the disease.
Quote:
Then you get caught and I can tell you that I wanted so much to just never see my H again. I had no feelings for him . He was so devastated though I did not want him hurting himself so I toughed it out and it was tough. He wanted to be married I did not but he also wanted gory details and explanations and I could not be bothered giving them. But knew I had to.
Yes, I went through this. WE went through this. She had no feelings for me whatever. Wanted to be away from me. I wanted details. Just like your situation, except she refused to provide the details. It hurt too much I guess. She'd promise that we could talk about it, but they she never would. She would say stuff like "it just happened", as if she wasn't really an active participant. Like it was a storm that just rolled in and she just sat and watched the wind blow. This part was really frustrating to me. I asked her "who dialed the phone? Who made the hotel reservations? did those just happen?"
In retrospect I can see that this kind of discussion pushed her guilt buttons. At the time I felt she was just refusing to accept responsibility for her own actions. Even now I feel she blames me for her affair. One of the last times we spoke about it (months ago) she told me it was 100% my fault, this divorce and mess was all my fault. I had to stop and clarify - are you saying you had no part in it at all? Yes, that's right, she said. ???? I stopped the conversation right there. I had been asking her to go back to therapy, and she refused. Then she filed for divorce. And somehow she blamed me. If I made mistakes I was willing to confront them and to improve. But she just flatly refused any of that. It was bizarre to me. Surreal. I didn't see the point in continuing the conversation. It was clear we were coming at it from two totally different places.
Later I sort of chalked it up to justification. She didn't want therapy, she didn't want to work on the marriage because she'd have to confront her own role in the demise of it. Too painful.
Quote:
So where your wife is concerned she has to learn that or her next relationship must go that way. Better that your around i think for her to see what she has given up.
I don't know. . . She may never have another adult relationship. Her mom divorced when she was 6, never had a real long-term relationship after that. Still hangs out in bars (her mom is 63?), still picks up men. The relationship betwen my wife and her own mom has never really been healthy or balanced. My wife essentially had to parent her mother, since the time my wife was about 13, when her mom started drinking. And that never changed. Her mom has not been an adult, has been financially and emotionally dependent on her own kids, for 30+ years. So far my wife's course looks to parallel her own mother's. I don't know if she sees this.
Quote:
he just made a dig about a new dress I was wearing. Makes me angry. I actually got dressed nicely to look good for him. I do have my own business and I work really hard.
Sounds like a grade-school thing - you know when a young boy doesn't know how to give positive attention to a girl, out of fear or insecurity, instead he'll insult her or make a wise comment.
I guess you have to find ways to let that stuff slide off your back. I'll bet your dress worked - I'll bet he did notice - he and a bunch of other men. People notice when you care about yourself and look good, so you just keep on doing it and ignore what he says for now.
--
You asked how I am feeling. I am feeling stable. A little tentative about the long road ahead. I feel a bit unprepared, but determined anyway, to look for and follow the right path. I feel lonely, often.
how about you?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
