Quoting Corri:I'm thinking deeply about your recent posts...I'll post thoughts as soon as they have geled into coherency.
Thanks Corri - I always look forward to your replies. Just make sure that you don't break any blood vessels on my account - I'd hate to have that kind of guilt hanging over me!
I need some help here. I've been awake since around 3:00 a.m. and can't go back to sleep - having a "mini relapse" with regard to the "plan" that I've been following. Here's some background - sorry that I tend to provide more details than are really necessary. Can't resist for some reason.
Got home from work last night and took my oldest daughter to dance class. We got back about 7:30 and my wife had most of dinner ready except for some stuff that I needed to grill. Grilled, ate dinner, and cleaned up the dishes as my wife got the girls ready for bed. Then around 9:00 when she took the girls upstairs to bed, I headed up to the driving range. Got back around 10:30 and as usual my wife had fallen asleep upstairs. I looked at the newspaper, read through some posts on this bulletin board, etc. and went to bed around Midnight. So far, nothing out of the ordinary as of late.
At some point after I was asleep my wife got into bed, still wearing jeans and the shirt (top?) that she'd worn to work yesterday. We woke up a little after 3:00 a.m. to my 5-year old crying after falling off her bed and hitting her head on the nightstand. We both ran upstairs and a few minutes later I went back to bed as my wife laid down with the girls to get them back to sleep. A few minutes after that my wife crawled back into bed, still fully clothed, and we small-talked briefly. As we were trying to go back to sleep my leg brushed against hers just barely and she scooted away from me. This started to make me feel like she can't stand to even touch me (and remember, she's wearing jeans still). After laying there hurting inside for a few minutes I asked her if she would just cuddle up to me. She made an aggravated hmmmph! sound and scooted just a bit closer so that she was barely touching me. Trying to keep from starting an argument, I moved away as it was obvious that she didn't want to touch me and I layed there until I thought she was asleep. Then, I got out of bed. My wife wasn't quite asleep and asked what I was doing so I told her I couldn't sleep, turned off my alarm, and started to walk out of the room. She said "yeah you can, come back to bed" and I briefly explained that I was a little upset over what had just happened, couldn't go back to sleep, and didn't want to start an argument. I tried to hold back any emotion but I'm sure she could tell that I was getting teary-eyed. Then I came in here and got on the computer.
Just after I started typing this post, she came in to see what I was doing, then sat down and we talked briefly (and calmly - no arguing). I explained in a bit more detail how much it bothers me that she won't even touch me and that I feel like our problems go beyond sex but don't understand what is causing them. She proceeded to explain how much stress she's dealing with at work, how from the moment she gets home the girls are climbing all over her, how she never gets any time to herself while I do, etc. She went on a bit and basically justified why she never touches me (never gets enough sleep, can't sleep well when we're touching, etc.). I basically told her the same things I've said before - how much the lack of touching, etc. hurts me, how I hold everything inside day after day because I don't want to add to her stress by making her feel bad, how I've been doing more things for myself lately basically out of necessity, how much I've tried to be supportive of her in her situation at work, how hard I've been trying to avoid getting into our usual argument, etc. With nothing really resolved, she left to go get in the shower.
Sorry for the length of that. I understand my wife's problems and I sympathize with her, but I honestly think that there will always be some sort of problem in her life that, in her mind, will justify us not having the intimate relationship that we should have. I also think that our marriage will not survive if that's the way things stay. Beyond that, I'm at a complete loss and need to know if anyone sees any hope for my situation or can tell me what we can do to resolve our problems. Correction - what I can do to resolve our problems since I'm the only one that see's our current situation as being a problem. By the way, I really do believe that my wife loves me but that she is completely clueless as to how much this is hurting me. Telling her that I'm hurting doesn't seem to make her understand.
I hit an enormous low point last night myself. Jeese, maybe it's the moon...we all seem to be hitting rock bottom.
If you need to bail out and cut your losses, Sooner, no one is going to blame you. Man, you have tried, God knows you have.
Hang with me. I'm going to ramble for a moment.
I think one of the reasons I hit rock bottom last night is because when my husband got home, I had been thinking of all you on this board who are so like him, and I asked, "honey, what made you hang in there? What made you change?"
And he looked at me and said..."Nothing made me hang in there. I was as close to the end of my rope as I could get. I think you were the one who did the changing."
Well, hitting me across the face with an ice cold wet towel couldn't have been more shocking. I can't verbalize why this was so disturbing to me...it didn't really hurt, per se, but it knifed through me. I don't know why, but it's irrelevant anyway. But I did do a tailspin into the deep blue.
My dog woke me up at about 4 a.m. this morning, and damn near pissed a river all over my house before I could get his butt outside. It wasn't his fault...he's not used to holding it and being an indoor dog...but that didn't make me any happier to be cleaning up dog piss at 4 in the morning.
But as I was scrubbing and cleaning, I did notice that I wasn't feeling despondent anymore. And then I wondered why...
I remember my shrink telling me once in one of our sessions, "all it takes is for one of you to make a change...sometimes a significant change, to save your marriage. I can't give you a specific time frame for it to work its magic...all I can tell you is that if you are committed to change, it will take as long as it takes. And once those changes have occurred, the time it took for you to get there will be worth all the struggles and pain you've faced...you will look back on it and say to your spouse, remember when we were there? You will appreciate and revel in the happiness you now share."
I thouht he was spewing a bunch of sh!t at me at the time.
Then I realized, as my H said, I probably was the one who changed, where all along I had thought it had been him. Right now, I understand it doesn't matter a fig who changed first. The fact is, one of us did, and it was enough to bring about change in the other. We almost didn't make it. But 'almost' doesn't count...except in horseshoes and hand grenades.
I read an article about Mother Theresa once...I cannot fathom that woman. She's going to be named a saint one day, I'm sure. Anyway, I only remember the gist of the article. It was something along the lines of her talking about her 'calling' in life...and the most difficult things she had ever faced. One of the things she mentioned was when she worked with the third world AIDS children. Emotionally, it was a very difficult thing for her to deal with. Day after day she was there until one night, she cried herself to sleep wondering how she was going to get up and do it again the next day. She didn't think she had anything left to give.
But the next morning she got up, and she gave some more, thinking surely it was going to be the end of her. "In giving, when I thought I had no more to give, instead of finding the pain and desolation I was expecting, I only found more love."
I don't know what to tell you, Sooner. There may be no resolution to your situation. You may in fact have nothing left to give. I think your wife hears you, and I think you hear her.
But maybe in the moment of asking her to cuddle, rather than asking something of her, you can offer something to her. "God, you are a great woman. But you look exhausted. Come here, honey, and just let me hold you for a few minutes. Nothing else. You just look like you could use a hug, and I know I need one."
I don't know, Sooner. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes it isn't.
The road you are on is a tough one, and you will continue to experience ups and downs. It is going to take as long as it takes to get to the end of it. If you can't make it, you just can't. But hang on as long as you can. That's all you can do.
Corri, this is just a guess but I would imagine that the reason that your husband's comment hurt you was that he was saying, "Nothing made me hang in there." I think that all women want to hear, YOU made me hang in there--because I love you to the ends of the earth, dear!!
Also, this may not apply to you, but I would be a little resentful of being the one who changed, ya know?!? Because, by definition the changee is the one who must have been 'wrong'. In real life, there is no right and wrong. Well, that's not true. There is right and wrong, but it is usually both parties that are right and wrong.
He was brutally honest and I can totally see how it would sting a bit. Congrats to you for working it out in your head and turning it into a positive.
Thanks Corri. I'm not bailing - not right now anyway. I'm committed to change and I suppose it will take as long as it takes. And I agree with your shrink that if my wife and I ever get to where I'd like us to be it will be worth every bit of my struggles and pain. But sometimes I wonder if getting to where I'd like us to be is even possible. Right now I'm lonely and I'm hurting inside - but I haven't given up. I just need a boost every now and then, and the only place that I know to find one is on this bulletin board. Thanks for all the boosts that you've given me Corri.
Quote: Thanks Corri. I'm not bailing - not right now anyway.
Good! Glad to hear it!
Quote: But sometimes I wonder if getting to where I'd like us to be is even possible.
Haven't we all...buy the book, "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind," by Joseph Murphy. It's a short book, but an awesome read. It'll give you something to do, if nothing else.
Quote: Right now I'm lonely and I'm hurting inside - but I haven't given up.
Yep. Yes you are. Wish I could make it go away for you, I really do. Please know that if I could, I would. Small consolation, I know.
Quote: I just need a boost every now and then, and the only place that I know to find one is on this bulletin board. Thanks for all the boosts that you've given me Corri.
Ask any time.
I gotta take a breather for a few days and get some work done. Keep posting...
I think you deserve a breather - get away from this stuff for a while. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll still have problems for you to solve when you decide to come back.
Quoting sooner1992:She proceeded to explain how much stress she's dealing with at work, how from the moment she gets home the girls are climbing all over her, how she never gets any time to herself while I do, etc. She went on a bit and basically justified why she never touches me (never gets enough sleep, can't sleep well when we're touching, etc.).
Hello Sooner,
I can totally identify with what your W was saying. In fact I just told my H the very same thing yesterday! I have no more time for me. Its really very exhausting. I can't sleep, eat, read or do much of anything uninterupted. No matter how much "daddy" helps at home its usually the "mummy" who gets the burdened with most of the load.
We don't sleep touching either because you get poorer quality sleep that way. I am not in the least bothered by it. Sleep is serious business here especially when we're both so sleep deprived so we do our cuddling at other times.
I think you have made great strides. Previously you would have said, we had the sex argument again. I feel unloved because my W can't bear to have me touch her. Now you are well aware that your W loves you. When she turns away from you in bed it is because she NEEDS to have better sleep, that is all, it has got nothing to do with not being able to bear your touch and you know it. You did not even have an argument. (So I wouldn't call it a mini relaspe, I would call it a positive move forward) You both spoke calmly and told each other what were your individual issues. Good for you. Whats even better is you did not add to your Ws stress by starting an argument and she was concerned enough to get up and check on you although all she must have wanted is to get some much needed rest) You heard your W. I am sure she heard you too and has noticed all the changes you have been making. The fact that she has even started to read up about SSMs shows that she is concerned about the issue as you are too. Be patient. Things won't always be this way. Your kids WILL grow up and prefer each others company than you and your Ws and won't be "all over her when she gets home" in no time at all. You WILL have more time for each other.
Continue to be affectionate out of the bedroom when your W is not looking busy/stressed. How does she react to those times? Your Ws job sounds very stressful. Is switching or quitting a possibility? It is a major change but sometimes all that stress isn't neccessary and not good for health and relationships (as we know only too well). The money isn't worth the stress unless you absolutely need it and the best job is no longer the best if its so stressful. Would she consider a change? (although change is in itself stressful too and you may have to bear with it for awhile too) Sooner, you know your Ws stresses. It has got nothing to do with you. If you could help resolve/remove some of those areas perhaps it might help? Don't take the negative stand that there will always be some problem in her life that justifies the lack of intimacy. It may not be the case at all. LH
I would like to add that I think your W also needs help on how to manage work and family life and other stresses. How not to let stress overwhelm and affect your R with your spouses etc. If you could find some reading material on those areas she might be more inclined to read them than reading about lack of intimacy etc and I think it would help her get into the correct frame of mind to manage her problems.
Thank you for your post and for helping me to understand what my wife is going through. There's really nothing she's told me that I don't believe - I can tell that she's overwhelmed right now - but it helps a lot to hear it from someone else. Gives me a slightly different perspective. And I agree that no matter how much I help, or try to help, she's the one bearing most of the burden around here.
When my wife and I first started dating, she loved to sleep holding each other and I didn't really care for it. Not that I minded the cuddling one bit, but I couldn't get good sleep. So I definitely know where you're coming from, and for that matter where my wife is coming from. If it weren't for the fact that she doesn't seem to have any interest in cuddling at other times I probably wouldn't mind at all. But anymore when we're in bed together that's the only chance we ever get to be alone. And we don't really spend that much time in bed together considering that my wife always falls asleep upstairs when it's her turn to take the girls to bed. They always seem to outlast her, where with me they usually fall right to sleep. I guess it helps though that I'm a night person and don't have to get up quite as early as my wife. I'd gladly take the girls to bed every night, but they want their mommy and she likes taking them to bed and reading them stories. Anyway, I've digressed, but I just wanted to point out that I know where you're coming from on the "touching while sleeping" issue.
I appreciate your encouragement relative to how I handled the situation last night compared to how I would have previously handled it. One positive, besides the fact that we were able to discuss some things calmly rather than having an argument, was that by the time I finished my post (around 6:30 a.m.) she acted as if everything was fine. After our typical argument there's usually of couple of days (at least) of tension and resentment before things get back to normal between us. And I'm fairly sure that she took some things from the discussion rather than just forgetting about it. I hope so anyway.
My wife is becoming more comfortable with me being affectionate out of the bedroom, although we still have a long ways to go. But we're making progress at least. Her job is stressful, although it wouldn't be if not for having to deal with a crummy boss and a lot of politics. Switching jobs or quitting really isn't a possibility at the moment, but we hope that it will become a possibility in the near future. I agree that quitting, or at least doing something less stressful with shorter hours, would be wonderful for her and for us as a couple. Her being able to make some sort of a change is definitely on our wish list.
I agree that my wife could use some help concerning how to manage work, family life, etc. Besides being very skilled at her job she tries to be Supermom - and does a pretty good job. Unfortunately she has a hard time saying no - wish that carried over to the bedroom! Tonight she took our 5-year old to an introductory meeting about Girl Scouts (Brownies, Blue Birds - whatever it is at that age) and guess who's the new leader. Just an example, but a pretty good one. With regard to reading material, she heard about something called "Hurried Woman Syndrome" and thought it sounded like her. She bought the book and read at least some of it, but I don't know if she ever finished it. Ironically, it included some chapters on loss of sex drive - that's probably where she stopped reading.
Sorry I've gone on so long. How are things going with you? - haven't heard much from you lately. Give us an update when you have a chance.
