MPT's and Sooner's posts have really made me think hard about myself...they usually do...and I'd like to throw out a question here for all of us.
I think that we will all agree that humans need to be touched. A lot. In sexual and non-sexual ways.
I don't know if this is me, or if it is an LD type behavior, but I tend to be very...mentally active. I THINK a lot. This tends to push my focus inward...to varying degrees, depending on what thought has my attention at the moment. I notice that I do this when I am feeling emotionally overloaded. I think it may be my way of creating 'space' if you will. When I begin to disconnect in this manner is usually the time when my family needs my attention the most.
I have to tell you that getting myself out of this mode can sometimes be very painful for me it takes so much effort. Forcing myself to come out of this mode can make me cranky, waspish, snappy, you name it. And like I said, this is usually when my H needs my emotional attention...which he usually intiates in a physcial way. If I snap...well, of course he interprets it as a rejection of physcial intimacy.
I think sometimes I mean it that way, though not to be mean. A little crisis is going on inside of me because I am feeling overwhelmed. By everything.
I have discoverd about myself that I need physical 'touching' as much as my H does....but I can't enjoy it really until I'm through my internal crisis.
There was not a lot of touching in my family...hence, I retreated into my own thoughts and daydreams for comfort.
My H grew up in a family that did even less touching than mine...but I don't think he ever found a mechanism for comforting himself...he just craved more touching and became despondent from lack of it.
One of the things that I have found to help me through getting myself 'out' of my internal crisis is for me to make lists...lists of what I am thinking about, lists of what I have to get done in a day...and the list that lets me off the hook: what do I think absolutely has to be done, and what can I let go til another day? I can then begin to relax...I've got a plan to get me through my day.
So after all this, here is my question. MPT, do you ever feel this way? Do any of you HDer's spouses seem to exhibit the same type of behavior?
I'm wondering, Sooner, about your lists. I'm wondering if this might be a method to help you get closer to your W. I know that when I make my lists and my H helps me take care of my lists, I damn near weep with relief. He can have anything he wants from me my relief is so profound. And it's because he has helped me not feel so 'overwhelmed.'
Thing is, I just don't know if this type of behavior is 'typical' or if it's just my own quirkiness.
Thinking about it right now, it would be wonderful if my H even helped me with my lists...talked me through it, if you will, in a non-judging way. Was just quiet, listened to me talk through things, made lists as I talked, then help me whittle things down into manageable chunks. And the most critical list of all is, if we can only get x, y and z done, what is x, y and z? (That's the one that let's me off the hook).
You may not think this is any big deal, but for me, like I said, the times we've managed to do this just by accident, I can remember feeling so much 'love' towards him...once my lists are done, I can open myself up to the closeness we both need....
I think that's why when my H has say, cleaned my car for me, and I don't react the way he wants me to...it's usually because whatever he has chosen to do for me wasn't real high on my priority list. But if he knew what my priority list was....
I don't know. This may not be anything at all....just wonder what you all think.
Once again you’ve brought up a picnic for thought.
It is appearing to me that you may be more similar to my wife than I previously thought. I will need to pick your brain for ideas when I get a chance to describe some situations to you and direct some questions to you. I hope you don’t mind being probed for ideas; I’m at the end of my rope!
Fire questions when ready. I'll be back Wednesday afternoon. It would be really cool to know that exploration of my personal quirks might in fact be useful to someone else!!
Your post was really helpful because it basically told me that my idea has some merit - in your case anyway. Of course I have to keep in mind that you're actively working on the intimacy problems in your marriage while my wife is not. I'm somewhat afraid that after writing her a couple of relationship-oriented letters in the past 2 or 3 months, she'll immediately go into defense-mode the moment that I hand her something in writing. Also, I'm a little concerned about asking her to tell me what I can do for her because she seems to believe that if she has to ask me to do something it no longer means anything to her when I do it. But unfortunately, her priority list (sometimes written but more often mental) changes every day and no matter what I do for her I always seem to miss whatever happens to be at the top of her list.
You're absolutely right that my idea is a method to help me get closer to my wife - and to help her feel closer to me. Besides our intimacy issues, I feel like we're extremely close, but she obviously doesn't feel the same way. If I could get some guidance from her concerning what I need to do to show her how much I love her and to help her again feel close to me, then I'll gladly do those things. And if she starts feeling close to me again, maybe she'll eventually want to work on fixing our intimacy problems. Does that make any sense, or will my efforts still come across as "he's only doing these things for me in hopes of getting sex in return"?
Remember, life is all about action and reaction. If you don't like her reaction, change your action.
Call your wife's bluff. If she accusses you of just wanting sex, then ask her: "Is this going to get me sex tonight?"
And when she says no, say, "Well, now that we have gotten that issue out of the way, let's get back to making our list." (And make sure you don't initiate sex that night).
If she has a sense of humor, say, "Jeese, all you ever think about is sex. Can we just get back to the list please?"
But she's probably very sensitive to the sex issue, so this may not be the best route to take.
If she changes her list every day, ask her for a new list every day.
Take care of things on your own just to relieve pressure and see how long you can go without asking her for sex. (I know...I know...)
You can only do what you can do. If she doesn't want to give you a list every day, make one of your own. TAKE ACTION. And leave her the heck alone as much as you can stand.
P.S. Keep in mind that just because your actions may not bring about immediate results does not mean you are trying the wrong action. Think of placing a pot of water on the stove and turning the burner on high. The water does not boil immediately. It takes time to warm up.
You will need to give your new actions time to take effect.
Also, your wife will probably continue to treat you in the same manner for a while...and she's doing it out of habit. The two of you have created a dance together, and she knows it so well, she's on autopilot. It will take her some time to realize you aren't doing the same dance steps anymore.
Also remember that when she does push your buttons, you have the power to control your reaction to her. You do not have to get pissed if you choose not to. (That's a kicker, isn't it?)
Try to live in the conscious moment, understanding that every action you take, and every reaction you might have are under your control. You cannot control her actions or reactions to you. You can control yours. If you continue to act and react in unexpected manners, she will eventually notice. And she will change. She has no choice.
But remember, too, that as she gradually begins to change, you will, too.
You are now in unchartered water, my friend. You must make your own map...there is no right, no wrong. Sometimes you'll run aground, and you'll learn not to run aground anymore.
Sooner, Ditto to what Corri has said . I really like her idea of responding with humor. It is really hard to have a good argument with someone who refuses to take the bait and stays in a good humor (even if you may have to fake some of it.) Even if it seems like she gets a little miffed at you when you joke about it, that doesn't necessarily mean you should stop the light-hearted approach. It could just be "miffness" at you not playing the game by the same rules anymore. Maybe she'll even wonder why you're staying in such a good mood about the whole thing.
Quote: Also, I'm a little concerned about asking her to tell me what I can do for her because she seems to believe that if she has to ask me to do something it no longer means anything to her when I do it.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to let your W know that you can't read her mind. She can't read yours either. How often has she been wrong when she's thought you were just doing something to get sex? I'm sure she has misread your motivations often in that regard.
Perhaps you can gently joke, without a sarcastic tone, that you are merely mortal and are not as good at reading minds as she is. So she will need to step down to the human level and communicate with words. You're terribly sorry you are so sadly afflicted by such deficiencies in mind-reading. You can be sure she must be sorely tried by it all.
Corri, I know exactly what you mean about the thinking and the lists. There's just alot of stuff I'm responsible for. I have 3 young children and I sometimes joke that a large part of my job as their mother is to be their brains. I refer to lists as my extra set of brains. I too appreciate it a great deal when my H takes an interest. Essentially, he's expressing an interest in what I do when he does that.
Quote: ...I notice that I do this when I am feeling emotionally overloaded. I think it may be my way of creating 'space' if you will. When I begin to disconnect in this manner is usually the time when my family needs my attention the most.
I have to tell you that getting myself out of this mode can sometimes be very painful for me it takes so much effort. Forcing myself to come out of this mode can make me cranky, waspish, snappy, you name it. And like I said, this is usually when my H needs my emotional attention...which he usually intiates in a physcial way. If I snap...well, of course he interprets it as a rejection of physcial intimacy.
I can relate to this very well too. When you need to recharge your emotional batteries what sorts of things do you like to do? The more depleted my energy level the more I turn to activities which involve few if any other people. I tend to turn inward and want space. I enjoy the activity and social interaction when I'm feeling rested and well-energized.
My H is a little different. He'll come home after a hard day and crank up The Who. Activity re-charges his emotional batteries. He wants social interaction and turns outward.
Not too hard to see the conflict when it comes to sex when you look at how we recharge differently . What has worked for us is understanding and accepting the differences. I take a read on my emotional energy level and if I think I need some space, I state that need and don't apologize for it anymore. Fortunately, my H has come to realize how he benefits when I'm emotionally recharged. He's often as eager to help me get my space as I am.
At the same time, I try to return the favor by going the extra mile, even when I'm moderately depleted, when he needs to recharge. When I'm feeling impending "wiped-out-hood" though, I'll defend my boundaries. It doesn't do anybody any good for me to get emotionally run down. Too many people depend on me for emotional support. The key is recognizing the need to re-energize before I get to that point.
Establishing the clear boundaries has actually helped me feel less like I have to defend the boundaries as much. When I didn't respect my need for space and didn't provide for it, it seemed like my H's desire for sex was always an invasion.
Thank you both for your input. I really like the idea about handling the situation with a little bit of humor and light-heartedness. Corri is right that my wife is very sensitive concerning the sex issue and therefore won't have much of a sense of humor about it, however if I were to be upbeat and slightly funny when a potential sex argument begins I think it would throw her for a loop. It certainly can't hurt! Every time that we've had the sex argument before I've gotten frustrated and have been anything but light-hearted and funny. I've basically felt that I couldn't control my reaction when in that situation. However, if I look at it more like a game (I hate games by the way, but what the heck) where we could actually make some progress if I can only keep my frustration from showing through while remaining upbeat and jovial, then I think I stand a chance. Having said all of this, I really hope that the sex argument doesn't happen again. But the odds are against me and at least I have a new approach if it does.
For the sake of my "records" I should point out that we did get into the argument on Sunday. I know - I'm not doing well am I. I guess the "possibility of intimacy clock" has been reset yet again. I haven't followed through yet on my plan to ask her to list five things I could do on a regular basis which would help her to feel that I love her (along with the other questions), but I did send her an e-mail today that I thought I'd share just to see if anyone has any opinions. I forwarded one of those weekend getaway e-mails that tells you about several good deals and asked her to take a look at one that was within driving distance. Here's the gist of what I said:
-------------------------------------------------------- ...I think that we could have a great long weekend at this resort. I know that you'll probably say that we can't afford it, but give it some thought anyway. The resort has several nice restaurants and bars, boat and wave runner rentals, parasailing, multiple swimming pools (one is heated), nature trails, and a full-service spa and salon with lots of services and some full-day packages that I think you'd really enjoy...
Here's what I was thinking. We could have someone keep the girls and go on a long weekend together with the understanding that there would be nothing romantic between the two of us the entire weekend - no sex, cuddling, kissing, etc. If I had no expectations concerning romance, I can promise that I would not react the way that I have in the past when I'm hoping for something to happen and it doesn't. This would allow us to just spend some time together, have a lot of fun, and hopefully become close friends again. I think that such a weekend could help us enormously.
Let me know if you have any interest. If you're not particularly interested in this specific resort, but might like to try a "non-romantic" long weekend somewhere else, just let me know and I'll start looking into it.
When I got home she told me that she doesn't want to spend the money right now - which is what I assumed she'd say. When I asked what she thought about the idea in general (referring to the "non-romantic weekend" concept) she said that she didn't know because she hadn't read the whole e-mail. I assume that she'll read the rest at some point and maybe I'll eventually get some feedback. Personally I thought this was a great idea, but I've learned that what I think is usually wrong. Any opinions? By the way, when she said that she didn't think we should spend the money right now I remained upbeat and told her that I understood (and basically agreed).
If you want to take your wife on a weekend getaway, make the plans, arrange for a sitter...then tell your wife you'd really like it if she went away with you for this weekend getaway you've planned. Tell her you've taken care of everything, there is nothing for her to do or plan except pack her suitcase. Period. Don't bring up what you expect, what you're not expecting, whether you can afford it or not....just do it. And then when you go, don't make any moves. Give her time to enjoy herself, and give yourself an opportunity to enjoy her. But don't tell her before hand that you won't be making any moves...just don't do it.
Don't worry about how long it takes you to get there, how many times you have to stop for potty breaks, how long it takes you to eat your road-side meal...there's no opportunity on this trip to beat your all-time low travel record, after all...
You sending her the email you did...while sweet...well, in my opinion, you were looking for her to let you off the hook...[I know you probably won't want to do this and you'll probably think we can't afford it...I won't do anything you don't want me to do...but I'd like to take you on a weekend getaway.] God...could you put any more preconcieved expectations onto that one? Guess what? Her answer to you was exactly the answer you were hoping she'd give you.
You knew she was going to say no, yet you still wanted Good Will points for coming up with the idea in the first place. But I bet you don't really want to go if you think before hand you aren't going to get any loving on a weekend away alone with your wife trip.
Stop that.
You be you. Let her be her. If after you've planned everything, you've arranged for a sitter, and she still doesn't want to go...then take your girls and leave her at home. She's not ALLOWED to go. And if she won't let you take the kids, call your best buddy and the two of you go. And if he's got plans, then go by yourself.
As for thinking of a way to ask her to help you make a list of 'the 10 things I can do to make you feel loved list'....well, don't do it like that.
On Friday night, ask her the things she wants to get done that weekend, listing them out in order of preference for you. Ask her to split the list in half so that you can help her. If she wants to go grocery shopping, make sure you keep the girls so she can go by herself. And while she's out grocery shopping, do the things on your list you can get done with your girls home.
Don't look for accolades, don't look for thanks, don't give her the big hound dog eyes when she doesn't say a word to you about your good deeds. She probably won't. Make sure you fit into your weekend time for you to do the things you'd like to do (besides sex), and keep on keeping on.
Period.
And if after a month or so of doing this she doesn't say anything, thank you in any way, then tell her you really think it sucks that she can't even say thank you.
Then keep on making the lists, keep on doing your half, and keep on keeping on. Keep busy. Keep planning. Keep telling her you love her, keep on smiling, enjoy your girls...and keep your attention focused on your concious moment.
But for God's sake, quit looking for the banner to hang on the wall that screams at her "see all the things I do for you to show you how much I love you?"
For once in your life, put yourself and your own happiness first. It's okay.
Sorry if I have come across as harsh. I don't mean it that way...I'm actually rooting very hard for you.
You kick ass...and it hurts, but I think it's good stuff. Your advice to sooner applies to my sitch somewhat so I'm trying to think about how it applies. Mostly, getting your thoughts may be like actually getting my wife to tell me what she wants (which she won't do, I dont' think she even knows what she wants). anyway, I think you know what I mean.
guys like sooner and me have something of a "hey I'm a sweet sensitive guy so why don't you want to give me some lovin?" complex. We're frustrated and bewildered. It's almost like we need to learn how to be assholes instead of nice to get our wives to respond. Is it possible that the sensitive guy myth is not really an attraction for some women?
. I really like her idea of responding with humor. It is really hard to have a good argument with someone who refuses to take the bait and stays in a good humor (even if you may have to fake some of it.) Even if it seems like she gets a little miffed at you when you joke about it, that doesn't necessarily mean you should stop the light-hearted approach. It could just be "miffness" at you not playing the game by the same rules anymore. Maybe she'll even wonder why you're staying in such a good mood about the whole thing.
. What has worked for us is understanding and accepting the differences. I take a read on my emotional energy level and if I think I need some space, I state that need and don't apologize for it anymore. Fortunately, my H has come to realize how he benefits when I'm emotionally recharged. 
He's often as eager to help me get my space as I am.