Don't bother turning the crank, the monkey is dead

[luvhubby]

Hi there Nopkins,

You're sounding great Nopkins. I'm really happy for you. I'm not doing so well though. Just started a new thread. Ummmh must be my pregnancy hormones yes? I'm up one moment and down the next.
LH

[NOPkins]

More bounces.

I was speaking to my wife Sunday morning. She mentioned some new study about morality and inhibition and sexual that she had found interesting. Without any thought other than to encourage her, I responded that I hoped it would help her in dealing with some of her issues. I said it in the nicest most unassuming way possible, mainly because I didn't mean anything whatsoever by the comment. It was on a scale of "oh, that's interesting. Are you goiong to try that diet?".

In any case, she threw a plat full of food at me. It seems that she thought we were all fixed up. Evidently, she has forgotten, or neglected to review the goals we had set for ourselves.

So, we at least have a pulse in that there is some frequency to our encounters, but old FrankyStein is still pretty dead. We do have the occasional bit of fun - she had a couple too many a week or so ago. Enough so that Mr. Inhibit left the building and she was free to roam. *WE* had a good time - both of us.

I decided to write her yet another letter and detail how serious things are. The rough draft (very) is below, but be sure to read my comments after the
letter.

--------------- START LETTER ---------------------
No passion
No desire (except when drinking)
Inhibitions

Typically, inhibitions go away as desire increases.

You thought the problem was solved with increased frequency because
you got mad when reference was made to ongoing sexual issues, even though the reference was constructive. Tossed food is proof.

The problem is not fixed simply by increasing frequency. Maybe you are
incapable of desire or passion. I find that hard to believe, but maybe there
is a capacity issue with no corrosponding, underlying, emotional issue.

I am having an increasingly difficult time having desire under the
circumstances. I am having to fight not to have an aversion to sex with you. Having formulaic sex makes this even more difficult.

I used to practice being 'long winded'. Now when I manage it, I sense (and
correctly so) that you just want the act over. This relates back to the sex
with desire/passion issue. In my mind sex is fun. Making it last longer is just a logical extension of sex being fun.

I am finding myself obsessed (once again) in trying to find resolution with
this untennable situation, not unlike the previous similar one of the past
12+ years. I am unable to train my mind to ignore the shortcomings in our
sexual relationship. They are too great to ignore. I simply can not continue
to provide you with a loving and secure relationship while my needs go
unmet. What is worse, either you refuse to see this problem (and deal with
it), or you are blind as to it's existance.

In your mind, you probably can't figure out how to fix it. That's because a
formula won't fix it. It is a *my* emotional need. Cooking, cleaning, home
making, smiling, being sweet and bubly won't fix the problem. Neither will
ignoring it.

I find myself devoting more and more time considering what it will be like
to live alone again. I don't mean leaving you to punish you in some lame
attempt at reconcilliation, but removing myself from the source of
continuous pain, while facillitating the hunt for a more compatible partner
(if there is any such animal).

I do realize how important love, family and history are, but I have suffered
for decades with no real resolution in sight. I don't want to wait until I
am too old or incapable of experiencing that for which I have longed for so
many years. Again, it isn't just the sex, it is being wanted and desired,
something you have rarely doubted from me to you.

Other than a few times in our relationship, I have consistantly let you know how much I want you. I have never made you feel unattractive.

Go ahead and flame back. I was and still am willing to kill our business, or
be poor or whatever to chase around the country with you. I am willing to do
whatever you need to be happy, except give up my sexual needs. What I can't
do is sincerely be what you need when I have starved for so many years.

Maybe you will find many things that I have done over the years that have
killed your desire for me. If that is true, then why have you punished me
for so long without telling me why?

I really hate writing this letter. It means days (or longer) of hurt feelings, and the possibility of even more damage to our relationship. If I could figure out how to kill my feelings, I would. I have tried, at least a dozen ways, even drugs. No banana. I even tried to kill my sex drive. Didn't work. I have tried to ignore it, work so much that I didn't have time for it. I have sung, written novels, done all manner of stuff trying to ignore the problem. I have courted you, bought you presents, been extra sweet for weeks, cuddled, watched movies, everything I could think of to make you want me. Most of the time, what I ended up with was a very contented wife, fast asleep on the sofa.

If all of a sudden, you wake up and see that you just didn't "get it" all these years, I have some forgiveness ready immediately for you. If you knew and did nothing for so long, then I strongly doubt that I will ever be able to let that go, try as I might.

Regardless of where you are right now, I need you to respond to this letter
now. If you realize that our relationship has been seriously harmed by the
lack of desire and passion, but feel like we can repair the damage, please
let me know. If you think that the problems are mostly mine, then there is
no need to respond.

-------- END LETTER ---------------

I have not given this letter to her. I love her. I don't want to go through
or put her through even more hurt. There is one last bit of hope. This
morning, I climbed out of bed, walked to the hallway and stood there, buck
naked, sporting a really decent woody, and spoke to my wife in the living
room. I asked her a simple question. "What will it take for you to lust
after me? More muscle, time in the gym, what?" For the record, I am already
very muscular. I am sure I could tone up a few places, but I am a handsome,
well built guy. She responded "I love you just like you are". I responded
"That is NOT what I asked you. I asked you what it would take to make you
lust after me". She said "are you serious?" I said "Of course!".

Folks. She was dumbfounded and didn't know what to say. Either she has no
idea what it is like to desire, or she didn't realize what I have been
asking for all this time. Maybe she just got pinned and didn't know what to say.

We haven't spoken much since that exchange.

Sorry about the length of the post and the spelling/grammatical errors, I am
just too tired to address the latter part.

-NOPkins-

[Jiji]

Hi I don't think you should give such a letter to your W. Think how you would feel if you recieved something similar. I'm not saying you shouldn't write anything but you need to tone it way, way down. Are you trying to improve things or just to lash out in defense at her extreme reaction to your comment. She has been trying to make things better. I agree you need to talk throwing a plate of food is pretty childish!! But remember better communication is not about being brutally honest. If you are so aggressive she will just take it all as an attack and get defensive.

I don't know if this is very good advice but what I would do in your position is to apologise, give flowers ect. Say you realise how much she has done to try and improve things but that you are still having some problems. You want her to try and address those remaining issues with you and that you know that together you can make it work. And you want to make it work because you really, really love her ect.

I am always one for a positive approach. Be as positive as you can in the circumstances.

[NOPkins]

Thanks for the reply, Jiji.

I really don't know what I should apologize for. I have been a good husband to her. I have provided very well, and I suspect I have been much more attentive to her needs than the large majority of men are to thier wives. I have not been perfect, but I have addressed all the issues she had with me.

I can only see my side of things and therefore observe situations onesidedly, however, it would appear that I didn't deserve 10 years of sleeping alone, or mostly disfunctional sex.

I do realize that we have stepped beyond the vast wasteland of no-sex, but we have stepped into the valley of problems with sex. I suspect both sets of problems originate from the same core. I am also about to concur with cemar that there indeed, may be no cure.

As a guy, I have heard numerous times, from other guys, "there is no such thing as bad sex". That is patent BS. I have also heard that bad sex is better than no sex. Well, I hate to tell you folks that are hurting for any sex at all, that bad sex isn't a good substitute for no sex. The only difference I can detect between the two is that certain parts ache less while others ache more.

Right now, I can barely stand to look at her. I desperately want to be satisfied with what she is offering, but I know that it will ultimately take away a fair part of what makes me, me. On the other hand, I don't want her to have to be something that she is not, or was and isn't now. Hard to figure it all out. Sometimes I think I know what it must be like to find out that you married a person destined to become a transsexual.

Since logic and applied science (psychological) doesn't appear to provide any solid answers, I am compelled to ask again what the source of the real problem is. I don't think she has been totally forthcoming with me. I don't know what secrets lie undetected in the past, but secrets have a nasty habit of leaving snail like trails.

You are right about the note being harsh, Jiji, but at this stage, I tire of being nice or civilized. I don't even think of myself as angry any longer. Indeed, I think I have moved much closer to disgust. No relationship will handle disgust for very long.

I do find myself avoiding fomula sexual encounters more and more. Sexual avoidance is a behavior I am learning. The idea of formula sex disgusts me. Maybe I am a closet LD...

-NOPkins-

[Corri]

Hey NOP:

I'm going to say upfront that I have missed you very much around the boards; when others need it, you give such great advice. But though I have missed you, I am sad to see you back because that means all is not well in Dodge.

Okay, I need to get clear on something. The formula sex issue has been a continuing one for you, and I understand your point.

So, do you try new things with your wife, or make suggestions, and when you do she says no, or are you hoping that she will initiate something new and you've been waiting for her to do that and it isn't happening?

Corri

[NOPkins]

Well, let me put it this way. We are back where we where 13 years ago, pre-couch sleeping era. Hey, maybe my need for her to be normal precipitated the whole no-sex decade. Easier to say no than to fix a problem.

Anyway, the problem is simple. More hangups than a loose anchor in a treetop. I would rather not list them, but in Barbara DeAngelis's book. they hit 12 of the top 20 turnoffs :-) (I just read a couple of her books. She is a hoot)

When I realize that I have been dealing with the sex issue most of our married life, which is now most of my life, then I get a wee bit pissy. The real gotcha is that it is finally killing my desire - at home. My desire levels haven't changed at all otherwise.

So to precisely answer your question, the formula precludes any deviation. No use to ask or do, lest you spoil the formula. Get off quick, both of us mind you, and get off. We are talking about having sex, not making love, most of the time. A reverse problem since it is usually guys that want to just have sex. I don't mind just having sex, but I like to make love too.

We are very limited in what we can do. She doesn't like oral sex receiving or gving. No lights, no dressup or sensual undressing. The list goes on.

I have tried for decades to find out what the deal is. I hate to put pressure on someone to deal with a problem, but guys (and many of you ladies) deal with that kind of pressure on a daily basis.

I discovered the SSM book in a cabinet yesterday. I thought she had finished it. There was a marker about 2/3rds of the way through the book. I don't think she ever finished it.

I have taken pressure off her so that she wouldn't think I was going to up and leave her. She just relaxes and assumes that everthing is back to normal. She is right, it does return to normal, abbynormal.

This time around, I dont think I can let up on the pressure. It probably means that she will walk away. So be it. I can't do it her way this time. If I do, I lose myself. If she feels the same way, then I guess it is proof that we screwed up from the beginning. Something I have suspected was true for a long time.

I have tried to figure out how I can give up on sex. It may occur naturally in time, but how long, another 20 years? In the mean time, it is a sore spot that acts like an emotional filter for all incoming interactions. Kinda hard to get by that one.

I still don't want to hurt her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

-NOPkins-

[Jiji]

Hi Nopkins
I don't think you should give up this time either. But the thing is she is not going to change overnight. Push her gently along, but dont let up.

I think things were going ok then you had this fight and it brought up all the old bad feeling. So sort it out between you first. Then say something but make it something nice.

really don't know what I should apologize for. I have been a good husband to her.

Men!! You aren't apologising for being a bad husband. Just for hurting her feelings that time. It's like thanking someone for a present they gave you which you actually hate. Its the right thing to do, you don't have to mean it. I bet you are sorry you hurt her feelings (even if she is in need of a can of WHOMPASS) Just make her feel good, sort out this row and move on. Then you can start working on the sex problems again.

When I realize that I have been dealing with the sex issue most of our married life, which is now most of my life, then I get a wee bit pissy

who can blame you. But something must have made it worth your while. Don't think of this as wasted time. You love your w and I expect you have a lot of good reasons why. Think about them for a while and you may feel more charitable towards her.
Try writing them all down you might be surprised what you come up with, I tried this once and it made me think about how much I take for granted with my H.

Don't think I am saying you shouldn't keep working on you problems. I just think you need to get your R into better shape first. Also I agree your W might have some sort of underlying reason to be inhibited about sex. Perhaps some counselling might help.

[Corri]

NOPkins:

Okay, if you are positive she just can't find it in herself to change, what are you going to do?

Corri

[NOPkins]

I will tell you what I did, just a few minutes ago.

Earlier this evening, we had sex. It was pretty quick - about 10 minutes. I still want to make love and it left me pretty dissatisfied.

Rather than wallowing and whining, I decided to try a different tack. I took a book I had recently read, "What Men Want Women To Know" and placed it on a plate along with this hand written note;

---
"I love you!

Please read this book if you can. It is NOT an attempt to 'fix' you, rather, it is just to try and enhance our relationship.

P.S. I have included a plate just in case you need to throw food anyway."
---

Whatayathink?
-NOPkins-

[Corri]

NOP:

Coming from a woman who is not on the defensive, I think this approach is very non-aggressive with a touch of humor added in.

Coming from a woman who might be on the defensive, I still think this approach is very non-aggressive with a touch of humor added in.

Nop, you are trying to honestly and lovingly communicate with your wife, but for whatever reason, she may not see it that way. It could very well be that she feels deflated because she felt like she reached into herself, made huge changes, did what you asked her to do out of her love for you, and still it isn't enough.

What I see, and this is just my opinion, is the two of you have only treated a symptom (frequency of sex), and you have not yet gotten to the real issue between you: trust, honesty, and open communication.

So perhaps, rather than attacking this from the 'sex' standpoint, you can talk with her about how the two of you communicate. I would imagine that she holds things back, and doesn't say what she feels to you because she doesn't want to 'mess up' the progress she feels she has made. Hence the plate throwing scene the other day. This is a woman who is feeling exceedingly frustrated. What I want to know is, WHY?

WHAT is she feeling, and HOW can you lovingly and honestly hear her so the two of you can work through that? If she feels as though you HEAR her, and that you are on her side trying to work with her feelings, that begins to build trust. You two have to get to a point where you don't feel as though you have to 'defend' your feelings to one another. Rather, you get it out on the table, and the two of you go, hm, how are we going to work with this together?

I think she isn't getting creative in the bedroom because she only trusts you to a point. She doesn't feel 'safe' being creative.

From her side, you handing her that book could be like you saying, okay, here are my needs and I'd really appreciate it if you met them. She's going to see that list and she's going to feel like a failure. Again. (Just guessing on my part).

Now. Do you have it in you to get her to a point where she can talk to you freely and honestly about her feelings regarding sex, trust, how you communicate, WITHOUT you passing judgment and not getting defensive? Hey, it is VERY hard to do. But there could be some things you hear that you think to yourself, you know, I could change that about myself if I thought it might help. And I'm not talking about doing more household chores, or painting the fence outside. I'm talking about subtle things like maybe changing your tone of voice, or giving her more encouragement, or something...

There is a fear she is dealing with that to her is very real, and it is my guess that that fear is more of trusting YOU than it is of sex (although I'm sure there's something there, too).

I mean, she obviously trusts you to a point. But I think there is a good portion of the iceberg here below water that you haven't even touched.

Find the REAL fear and deal with that, and I think you have an enormous opportunity to have the marriage you've always wanted.

Corri