since dbing (divorce busting the original nature of this website) is to remain solution oriented, let's try to come up with some solutions to this "problem" and while we're at it..address a few possible "issues" that may be related.
ok so men and women are supposedly different but are they?
when it is "sex" you are seeking with your ld spouse what is it you are seeking? sex? a release? closeness? affection? etc?
if it is just sex for the sake of sex well then we can't say much more about that one...but if the seeking of sex is connected to other things where else can we seek it (and I don't mean another person or ourselves).
I am not suggesting simply stuffing this need aside as it will show it's ugly head or fester. but is it possible that it seems greater than it is because we focus on it rather then stepping back and looking at the r as a whole?
I want answers and solutions just as much if not more than the rest of you here..I will say it is a bit disheartening to not have at least one voice of a low desire male around...sure would help me to understand my h as right now most people think he's nuts!
I know in my case, an active and exciting sex life is not only for the sake of sex but also an important forum to express passion, closeness to my spouse and a very strong general sense of well being for me and our relationship. The idea that my wife desires me physically as well as mentally and spiritually is important to me and in turn my feelings towards my wife. Yeah, I can do without sex for a time every now and again - no big deal. But the lack of sex for months and months on end creates havoc with my feelings about myself, it affects my confidence, the closeness in my feelings about our relationship, In addition, it is quite depressing knowing that there is no possiblity of the pleasures of sex in the forseeable future. I can not break down the need for sex into one or two clincal categories, it is an all encompassing matter.
So why does the higher desire spouse dwell on the lack or absence of sex in a realtionship? I think it is the feeling of being deprived of one of the important reasons you fell in love with your spouse. Sex wasn't the only reason by any means but was an important part of the equation for all of the reasons listed above. I wonder how many of us would have married our spouses if we knew that there would never be an "acceptable" sex life - as shallow as it seems, I doubt that I would marry someone in the first place if I knew that there would never be a sex life. In fact, I would probably not have married someone if I suspected that we would not have a physical relationship for an extended length of time.
With respect to solutions, I don't think there is any magic if your spouse is low desire and does not want to participate in finding some common ground and is not willing to work together to meet the needs of the hd spouse while at the same time being comfortable with the level/nature of the sexual activity. It's easy to say that you should communicate with your ld spouse openly and if he/she loves you then he/she will be more than willing to work towards a compromise. I think this might be true for some ld spouses and several have kindly shared their stories in this forum. I believe that this approach does not work for many ld spouses. For some reason that I do not understand, some ld spouses who love their spouses dearly, just don't want to participate. I am guessing that they feel that they shouldn't be forced to "play" if they don't want to and that the hd spouse couldn't love or respect them if they pressure them into a sexualy encounter of any kind. Perhaps some spouses are just turned off by sex and it would be like trying to force them to eat some kind of food that makes them sick to the stomach. Anyway, it would be very interesting to try and determine why a ld spouse refuses to work towards a compromise in this area . I believe many of us would relish any kind of compromised situation, at least for some period of time. Most of us on this bb truly love our spouses and are trying to seek an acceptable solution, but it seems that the ld spouse is frequently not interested in changing or compromising. The fact that the hd spouse is willing to consider some kind of compromise must mean that he/she is interested in changing.
You have indicated that it seems strange that there are no ld husbands that respond to this bulletin board even though there are a relative high proportion of sex starved marriages involve ld men. Based on the relatively common occurance of ld in men, I don't think your husband is nuts. I will try to explain a possible theory on why ld men would not be inclined to visit or respond to this forum. I suspect that ld men are even less sympathetic to the hd wife due to society stereotypes where men are seen to be the aggressors in this area and women are supposed to be much more inclined to be ld than men. Accordingly, if the man is ld, the thought would be that the woman is probably not that interested anyway. Just a thought.
Anyway, I really sympathize with you as a hd wife as there may be people out there that think there is something wrong with you as the wife wanting to have a more active sex life. It must feel that there is something wrong with you at times!
From your posting you come across as an angry man trying to tell himself that he is past caring. You sound angry at having wasted so many years waiting for change that never came, you sound bitter, disappointed and hurt as well.
Your wife does sound like she is trying though. This part of your post gave me the impression.
Quoting NOPkins:Tonight was yet another proof of the unlikeliness of any change occuring. I got turned down, and I didn't even ask for it :-) She asked me for a rain check, I said "sure, no problem". Then she asked me if I was going to be mad at her. I told her that I would not, and that I haven't been for quite a while. She countered with "it's only tuesday", which sailed right over my head, so I responded, "so, this means what" only to be told that it was early in the week yet regarding my ability to not be angry about our sex life. I walked away.
My point in the last overly dramatic paragraph, is simply that she knows the effect her 'failed efforts(?)' have had on me. That means that it knows what it is doing.
You will find that many ld spouses don't even want to try, nor do they want to talk about it; a denial that there is a problem with mismatch desires. At least your W is trying, have you told her that her efforts are not enough? If she knew how near you are at the end of your tether, maybe, just maybe you could both renew your efforts to resolve this issue? At least she recognises the problem but does she know how big it is? You said that you were near D years ago but you didn't mention much about the sexual issues because you felt sorry you were causing her so much emotional pain. Perhaps you should have told her then, or you should at least tell her now or you would be causing her the same emotional pain and confusion now 25 years on.
Although I am the HD spouse in my marriage I can't help but feel sorry for your W. I don't think its the fault of the ld spouse for the low drives but its the handling of it by both parties. Your W does sound to me like she is trying and so afraid of angering you. You need to let her know that what she is doing is not enough. You did not tell her this 25 years ago. Its never to late to tell her now.
Sex in a M should be fun and play, love, passion and excitement, an adventure/exploration, a special connection between two who love each other but sadly sex in a SSM is non-existent, a source of conflict, argument and stress, its work not play, its quick(lets get it over and done with and out of the way so that we don't have to think about it for sometime), its awkward (for having had too many arguments over it thereby raising the expectations of both parties). I could go on and on but I am sure many here can add to my definitions so I'll stop here.
I have no solutions Nopkins, just an observation and the hope that this will no longer be an issue in my M 20 years on! LH
I want to address the fact that you are feeling so disconnected and having thoughts of divorce and not sharing those thoughts with your wife. I know we shy away from hurting others and you are aware of how hurtful it would be to her. I think, though that you are taking away any chance she might have of finally doing something constructive about the problem by hiding how you are feeling now.
I doubt seriously that your wife has ever been honest with you or herself about her low sex drive. It's not a problem she will ever solve unless she is willing to be honest. By withholding how you are now feeling you are moving further away from a solution and beginning to play the game the way she does.
Sometimes people have to be shocked into facing themselves and their problems and finding answers. Sometime we have to be willing to let people we love experience emotional pain because as devestating as it is it can also be a great motivator for healing one's problems.
Your love for your wife is slipping away from you. Giving her a glimpse into that fact may be the solution you have been looking for, for all these years. She is complacent....trying but putting the wrong kind of effort into it. He main objective is to not have to deal with your anger over the subject. I have to wonder how she would react if she new that dealing with your anger was the least of her problems? Cathy~
The only sex I want from her, is the kind you have with someone you love and want to have sex with :-)
I don't have a particular 'bent' in mind. Have you ever had sex with someone with the lights on and you were totally unashamed of, and at ease with your body because you trusted /loved the person you were with? That is the kind of sex I want with my wife. Sex because sex feels good and you want to share the joy. Sex because it is fun. Sex just because it 's raining on a Saturday afternoon, and you decide to spend the afternoon watching movies, lying naked on the bed. Sex just because....
I understand that people are busy and times, kids, schedules , whatever get in the way. I understand that necessitates some level of "planned spontaneity".
My point in my previous posts is that I have realized, that she won't/can't want me. Service me - yes, want me - no.
I have 27 years of proof. I still maintain, that short of a miracle, there is about zero chance that she will wake up one morning, and say "damn, I think I want to spend the day naked with hubby" or "damn, I think I will dress up all hot and parade around a bit" or plug in whatever you like here.
-Hey, I washed your car today. Know why, cause I like you. -Hey, I haven't seen your face lately, and I miss your smile. Please come over -Hey, let's go get naked and play.
What the hell is abnormal about wanting to have sex with your love? Maybe married people take lovers because they can't find one at home.
The rant is not directed at you, LL.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I am a bit bitter. As for hurt, not really, unless I want to be hurt at myself. Let me give you a true example.
Once upon a time, I started a business, and against my better judgement, and against counsel, I took on a partner and a venture capitalist. The relationship lasted a short while. During that time, I made a concerted effort to uphold my end of the contract. Their efforts were somewhat lacking on a continuous basis. I watched a business that would have enjoyed tremendous success, turn into a tax writeoff for a rich company. No matter how much I begged and pleaded, there was no saving it. Even then, I spent the last $40,000 I had trying to keep it afloat, and that was after all the other money and expertise I had invested.
The point of the story is obvious. No matter how hard a person tries, in a relationship, all parties have to do their part in order for the relationship to succeed. Only idiots stick it out once the chance for success drops to nill. Giving them one for the gipper makes for great movies. Real life is a wee bit different.
Besides all that, how the hell can someone work up a "want you" when they haven't had one for 27 years. I don't think I could. I don't think she will. I do think I should give her a rest from the drama. Intentional neglect or not, bad partner or good, I don't want to plead, scream or incite her to try harder, do better, or be different anymore.
It is a choice I have made. A change I will make, because it needs to be done. It should have been done 2 years into the relationship. Had there not been religious and social pressures at the time, it would have been done upon the discovery of faked orgasms. I knew plenty of women at the time that had no reason for pretense. I certainly never wore my manhood on my sleeve enough to justify the deception.
Quote: ----------- Although I am the HD spouse in my marriage I can't help but feel sorry for your W. I don't think its the fault of the ld spouse for the low drives but its the handling of it by both parties. Your W does sound to me like she is trying and so afraid of angering you. You need to let her know that what she is doing is not enough. You did not tell her this 25 years ago. Its never to late to tell her now. ------------
I feel sorry for her too. That is why I have withdrawn the pressure, decades of pressure. It is damn sad really. I can't tell her just yet. She would react to it by trying to fix it or falling apart. She can't fix it and I don't want to see her fall apart. I still love her.
So for now, I must just let it fade with a minimum of fuss. In a while, when she is more comfortable with the distance, then we can discuss dissolution. In the mean time, I have a lot of projects that are needing my attention. I also need to see to the logistical aspects of the situation.
I do hope that she can find someone that she fits. Maybe a low maintenance easy going kind of guy who will make few demands of her.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote -------- I want to address the fact that you are feeling so disconnected and having thoughts of divorce and not sharing those thoughts with your wife. I know we shy away from hurting others and you are aware of how hurtful it would be to her. I think, though that you are taking away any chance she might have of finally doing something constructive about the problem by hiding how you are feeling now. --------
I think that confronting her at this point would simply prolong the inevitable, while seriously adding to her stress load. She already knows that our relationship has changed because I have changed. There is a guy here (me) that no longer gets angry when rejected, doesn't accept when offered, and is otherwise attentive and pleasant to be around. I will continue in like fashion.
I am still considering what such a conversation would include and what type and quantity of fallout to expect as a result. She mentioned that we needed to talk this morning. I told her that I didn't have time as I was already late for an appointment (true). The subject didn't come up again this evening. At this point, and for the time being, I will reject any request for conversation regarding relational issues. Business, children, logistics are fine for discussion.
Quote: --------- I doubt seriously that your wife has ever been honest with you or herself about her low sex drive. It's not a problem she will ever solve unless she is willing to be honest. By withholding how you are now feeling you are moving further away from a solution and beginning to play the game the way she does. -----------
I agree with your assessment of her. She simply and obviously doesn't get it. The difference with me, is that I detest relational game play. I am simply moving to protect mutual non-relational interests, and working toward providing a buffer for the relational issues. Someone has to have a level head now, and that duty has fallen to me. I see no reason to go running off mad or "home to mama" or to do something else equally stupid. We will both still need to be able to eat next week or retire at some point in time. Our relationship is already in jeopardy, No need to put everything else in the same boat.
Quote: ---------- I have to wonder how she would react if she new that dealing with your anger was the least of her problems? ----------
Good question, and now that the anger is gone, maybe we can find out.
I very much appreciate your kind words and the insight expressed in your post. I still have some hope that our relationship can be repaired, but that hope is growing dimmer by the day. I am open for the impossible. I would love to witness a true miracle.
I am grateful for Michele's book. It was a catalyst for change, and in a good way. It certainly cleared my head to see through the fog. I am certain that she would not approve of my solution or the likely outcome, and I understand that.
This whole mess has been brewing for years and would have eventually gotten nasty all by itself. At least this way, there is still a chance for change.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I have filled that womans tank so many ways and times you can't count them. If you read previous posts made by me, you will see where I have made sure that she felt wonderful about herself, even to the point where she lovingly looks up at me as she goes to sleep on the couch for the night.
Life as physics is far too complicated to express in simple formula. Why would anyone think that a formulaic approach to emotion will solve all problems. A formulaic solution to any emotional issue is at best only moderately successful when viewed even in the most broad sense possible.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: Life as physics is far too complicated to express in simple formula. Why would anyone think that a formulaic approach to emotion will solve all problems. A formulaic solution to any emotional issue is at best only moderately successful when viewed even in the most broad sense possible.
the five love languages is not a formula, it is simply learning to recognize what your love language is (I think it obvious here that us high-drive spouses aren't sex maniacs...our love language is physcial touch)
when you say you've filled her tank in many ways what you may fail to realize is that some of those ways are a waist of your time and effort...discovering the main one or two love languages might help save you alot of waisted energy.
here are the five...
physical touch words of affirmation gifts (giving and receiving) acts of service quality time
of course most of us don't fully know what our love language is if simply asked. The way the book is written is not formulaic as you suggest but simply a guide to help you figure out not only your spouses ll but also your own. sometimes what we think we want we discover we really don't.
I've discovered that my h is very much acts of service (geesh I've got an act I'd like to service him with ) and words of affirmation. h is very aware that he is an acts of service man, it is what he speaks...he is not however openly aware that he is a words of affirmation, he doesn't need to be...I know it and therefore I speak it to him. now getting him to understand that I appreciate his language but also have my own is another story but it's getting better...at least the quality time is improving...the rest will come with time.
I suppose I have a tad more patience with the issue given what I've been through with my m in the past two years...but then again considering what I've been through with my m in the past two years maybe I should give up too? nope not gonna happen. I know what it's like to be without him and not simply without "him". if ya get my drift.
) and words of affirmation. h is very aware that he is an acts of service man, it is what he speaks...he is not however openly aware that he is a words of affirmation, he doesn't need to be...I know it and therefore I speak it to him. now getting him to understand that I appreciate his language but also have my own is another story but it's getting better...at least the quality time is improving...the rest will come with time.