Well, I haven't posted on my own thread in a month, so it's probably about time. I guess the main reason is that things have been going generally quite well, although there was a snag the other night (more about that in a minute). I haven't had much specific to complain about, although there are lots of issues that just continue to be in play.
The last month has seen a lot of good stuff going on between my W and me. Lots of time spent together, lots of affectionate touching, more sex than ever. With sex, it's not just how good it feels - that's a given - but it's also about feeling wanted by her, and that feeling of being totally connected when we're looking deep into each other's eyes. Is it be too shallow of me to think that it's been the single most important factor in helping me to get over some of the negative thoughts and feelings that are now so much less pervasive than they were? It's not that sex solves any particular problem, but it seems to be able to help me get past some of the irrationality and pessimism that sometimes continue to plague me.
As I said, irrational and pessimistic thinking continues to be a problem for me. Examples: thinking that my W is seeing the OG; thinking that she will never understand how I feel; thinking that she will never be truly sorry, that I will never forgive her, and that consequently we are doomed; and thinking that she could do this to me again. Not all of these things are irrational, but how I think about them sometimes seems to be. And even knowing that thoughts are irrational doesn't seem to be enough to drive them away.
I have avoided having R talks, partly because they tend to be unproductive, and partly because I think that it's better to just focus on slowly growing the R and being happy together. As a consequence, though, we talk about anything and everything except the topic of us. She treats that subject almost as taboo, and it's often simpler for me also, especially when things are going well.
Early Saturday evening, however, after she had said a few things that I took as insulting, I broached the subject and asked her how she felt now about me, about us, and about the OG. I guess I was hoping to hear some reassurance, and that her thinking and feelings had progressed a lot in the last month. Unfortunately, while there has been some progress, it doesn't seem like much.
In response to a specific question, she said that she is committed to trying to make our M work. Notice the "trying to". That's not the same as "committed to making our M work", is it? In fact, "trying to" changes the whole meaning. It's not really a commitment at all.
She also admitted that the OG called her almost a month ago, that they'd talked for about 10 minutes, that there had been no other contact, and that she didn't expect him to call anymore. She doesn't seem to get how huge an issue this is for me. What is so difficult about understanding that no contact whatsoever means no contact whatsoever? The fact that I had to pry this admission from her, and the fact that she didn't seem to think it was such a big deal does not help my paranoia about this one bit. With some pushing, I got her to agree that she would refuse to talk to him if he ever called again, but I shouldn't have had to push, and I don't trust that she would follow through.
I got some clarification on some details regarding the OG and the A. I don't think I'll need to ask any more questions about that in the future. Most of what I found out doesn't matter anymore anyway.
She did say that she thought that we had been getting along great lately and that things between us were better than they had been in a very long time. I asked her how often she thought about our situation, the A, the OG, etc. I was surprised when she said that she doesn't even think about this stuff every day (in contrast, I still think about it at least an hour or two a day, I'd guess). She admitted to still missing the OG occassionally, but said she was getting over it.
Here was the part that will continue to drive me nuts. She still isn't truly sorry for the A. The most she's willing to say is that she's sorry I got hurt. She said, "it was a bad thing for you, but a good thing for me". I said, "yes, but it was a bad thing for our M, and that affects you", to which she basically had no response.
I think that she may never be sorry. She maybe isn't capable of enough empathy to feel that the pain that she caused me from the A and the damage to our M wasn't worth the happiness she received. She never had to suffer any consequences of having the A - no loss of respect from family and friends (since nobody knows), no economic loss, not even the loss of me (in fact, she likes me even better now) - so for her, what's the downside? I think that it would take me leaving and revealing the A to everybody for her to become truly sorry. It would be nice if she were a good enough person to come to be able to come to that conclusion without having selfish reasons for doing so. At this point, I'm not sure she is.
And so, I'm still withholding forgiveness. I really thought I'd have gotten past this point by now. I feel the need for the apology. I know, I know, "the gift you give yourself", etc. But I'm not ready yet. I guess it's something to work on.
Well, more on all this later. This post is long enough, and I've got to get some work done.
You are right on pace with the progress I made in my sitch. The wound is still too fresh for you to feel comfortable and confident in the M. It will come soon enough but please maintain the DB principles as you evolve out of this "non-forgiveness". I think the ebbs and flows that occur at this time really need to happen. You aren't supposed to talk about it but I really needed to tell my W how I felt. Not all of the time but sometimes I just had to. Not talking about it is like sweeping it under the rug. You can't avoid it nor can you dwell on it. You are doing fine. One trick I did was to pretend we were boyfriend/girlfriend. It is much less complicated than a M, right? The past is also of less relevance as well when you are only "dating". I also think that "connection" you are talking about is critical to the R. I felt the same way. It isn't really about the sex. Well, alittle bit .
I'm still withholding forgiveness. I really thought I'd have gotten past this point by now.
I agree with the idea that "forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves". But is it really forgiveness if we force it upon ourselves? You are being honest with your feelings and I think that that is a necessary part of the journey toward being able to forgive.
I know that for myself, as with many others, the direction of reconcilation is rarely linear in nature. Along with steps there are plateaus where progress has to be processed, assimilated, expanded upon and solidified before we can safely move forward.
Frequently, positive growth can be nearly invisible to our inner eye except, of course, through retrospect.
It may be true that your W is incapable of empathy for your feelings right now or that she can't feel remorse for the damage her actions have brought to your M, but it may also prove true that she will acquire that ability as life peels away the outer layers of her cocoon ... little by little.
I have avoided having R talks, partly because they tend to be unproductive, and partly because I think that it's better to just focus on slowly growing the R and being happy together.
I agree.
You are obviously further up the road than your W in terms of relationship skills and your perspective of the A is in opposition to your W's. This is bound to cause you great discomfort and frustration.
HI Brian...it's been awhile, but always worth the wait.!
I also get the sense that CJ isn't as "sorry" for the A as I'd like him to be!!! Sometimes I wonder if he really IS sorry, although he did say so a long time ago.
I guess it would help me to hear it more often, when memories get to me etc. "I'm sorry I caused you so much pain...I'm sorry I was so selfish...I'm sooo sorry I lied to you and betrayed your trust!"
Oh to hear those words! sigh....
I have some trouble with your W's attitude toward the A. Sorry it hurt you, but not sorry it Happened??? WHAT? That's the moral reasoning of a 4-6 year-old, "it's only wrong if you get caught!"
No kidding you haven't "forgiven" yet! BTW I haven't uttered those words yet either. Like LL? Jeannine? said, we can't force that "gift" on ourselves when we're not ready!
And to hear she's been in touch as recently as a month ago!!! Oh, Brian, if I found out CJ was still e-mailing or calling OW.... ...especially after he PROMISED to tell even if she just called here, promised NOT EVER to pick up.
Geez now perhaps I know why I rarely bring up OR discussions, maybe I don't want to really hear how CJ feels! ...that's not so great, we're going to see our C in the next few weeks for a "tune up".
Brian, would you say that prior to the A you were the one with more control in your M? I'm just wondering if your W is (perhaps unconsciously) NOT admitting to wrong-doing, not humbling herself, not apologizing because now the balance is tipped in HER favour and she wants to keep you on your toes??? Like the "trying to" comment?
Quoting eskb: Is it be too shallow of me to think that it's been the single most important factor in helping me to get over some of the negative thoughts and feelings that are now so much less pervasive than they were? It's not that sex solves any particular problem, but it seems to be able to help me get past some of the irrationality and pessimism that sometimes continue to plague me.
hey Brian -- I don't think it's shallow at all...To know that you are WANTED by the person who strayed...that seems like a normal and expected feeling!
Quote: As I said, irrational and pessimistic thinking continues to be a problem for me. Examples: thinking that my W is seeing the OG; thinking that she will never understand how I feel; thinking that she will never be truly sorry, that I will never forgive her, and that consequently we are doomed; and thinking that she could do this to me again. Not all of these things are irrational, but how I think about them sometimes seems to be. And even knowing that thoughts are irrational doesn't seem to be enough to drive them away.
Time helps this, I think. And more good times with your w. And more problems solved, too. Someone on the boards recently described surviving an a. as surviving a "trauma" and I think that the aftermath is just that...there are days when I'm actually amazed at how much I've healed.
Quote: I have avoided having R talks, partly because they tend to be unproductive, and partly because I think that it's better to just focus on slowly growing the R and being happy together. As a consequence, though, we talk about anything and everything except the topic of us. She treats that subject almost as taboo, and it's often simpler for me also, especially when things are going well.
I can relate to this...the sit down R talks made us take pretty giant steps backwards in my sitch. right now I'm hopeful that we're laying the groundwork every day for a stronger r....tho' I'll certainly admit that there are times I worry that we haven't "debriefed" on the a and its aftermath sufficiently.
Quote: Early Saturday evening, however, after she had said a few things that I took as insulting, I broached the subject and asked her how she felt now about me, about us, and about the OG. I guess I was hoping to hear some reassurance, and that her thinking and feelings had progressed a lot in the last month. Unfortunately, while there has been some progress, it doesn't seem like much.
hmmm...well, first off, sounds like asking your w. for reassurances right now is a cheeseless tunnel (so try to stay out of it). Secondly, wasn't your timing off? She had said somethings that sounded insulting, you were likely peeved...maybe not the best time to get reassurances? (I know, I know, it was the time when you probably MOST needed them....) If you MUST ask for reassurances, how about doing it when you two are feeling good about each other?
Quote: In response to a specific question, she said that she is committed to trying to make our M work. Notice the "trying to". That's not the same as "committed to making our M work", is it? In fact, "trying to" changes the whole meaning. It's not really a commitment at all.
My 2 cents (uncensored) is that you're reading WAY TOO MUCH into this. Your w. CAN'T MAKE your m. work. She can TRY to but do you really think that she can MAKE it work? Honestly, I think I would have answered the question in the exact same way she did...and I don't think one can doubt my commitment to my m
Quote: She also admitted that the OG called her almost a month ago, that they'd talked for about 10 minutes, that there had been no other contact, and that she didn't expect him to call anymore. She doesn't seem to get how huge an issue this is for me. What is so difficult about understanding that no contact whatsoever means no contact whatsoever? The fact that I had to pry this admission from her, and the fact that she didn't seem to think it was such a big deal does not help my paranoia about this one bit. With some pushing, I got her to agree that she would refuse to talk to him if he ever called again, but I shouldn't have had to push, and I don't trust that she would follow through.
ah, a rock and a hard place. I KNOW you are looking for more understanding and humility from your w. I absolutely do not blame you for that AT ALL...but I'd be careful about doing anything that makes it less likely for your w. to tell you about these sorts of things...yah, 10 minutes sucks..and optimally, she would have told you right after it happened, but, she did tell you,no?
Quote: Here was the part that will continue to drive me nuts. She still isn't truly sorry for the A. The most she's willing to say is that she's sorry I got hurt. She said, "it was a bad thing for you, but a good thing for me". I said, "yes, but it was a bad thing for our M, and that affects you", to which she basically had no response.
So...I'll agree with Shiny's suggestion that this may be a control thing for your w. Let me also ask you this -- WHY does your w. say it was a good thing for her? WHAT did she get out of the a? THAT may be a good clue as to why she's holding onto it so tightly...
You also know that you can't MAKE her sorry...and trying to control it may make her very, very resistant to coming upon her regret by herself. Also, don't forget that she may be protecting herself...from feeling the unbelievable pain of what she's done...
I suspect that the more you push this, the more she'll push back....
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
How can I top that post?? Luckily, this isn't a competition!
Great stuff, Sage. I too want to vote for the over-sensitivity to her wording of "trying to" make the M work out. It's just that we DO hang on every word!! Not a great thing as everyone uses a bad choice of words, can't express themselves perfectly....you know, like I'M doing right now!!
I hate it when CJ picks at my choice of word, and likewise for him.
Okay, I just re-read Sage's post, so I'll close with "ditto"!
Hi Brian, I'm posting from home now, so I have compiled this off line as my connection is a lot slower than at work, not to mention I smashed my finger with a hammer today, its taking me even longer...
In a lot of ways, I think you and I are on that same plateau Jeannine spoke about. I seem to be struggling with the irrational and pessimistic thoughts as you are but lately, I finding what triggers a lot of these thoughts is when she does initiate the intimacy (touching, etc... including the sex). A couple times this weekend, once where we were just watching TV and she reached over and gave me a kiss on the cheek and later when she ran her finger nails over my chest, I'm having a hard time accepting she is doing this because she loves me, so I ask myself why and it just starts the whole irrational and pessimistic thinking.
I, too, believe it stems from the fact that she is not remorseful either about having an A with this particular OM. She feels she is giving up "true love" by not being with him. She is still grieving for herself and for what she feels she is giving up. As long as she is focused her own grieving, she is not likely to comprehend the depth of the hurt she has caused me or the damage she has done to our R. Not until if or when we reach the stage where she is totally content and happy in our M, will she fully understand to the extent of what she did ... came so close to jeopardizing what she has.
Sorry, I don't have much to offer as I seem to be wondering around in the same forest...
I saw my new pal shiny has something to post, I'm gonna have to go back now and read what she had to say ...
Thanks for the encouragement. I like the "dating" analogy. I do need to keep the R talks infrequent, but as you said, sometimes she needs to know how I feel about things and I need to know how she is feeling.
Quote: I agree with the idea that "forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves". But is it really forgiveness if we force it upon ourselves? You are being honest with your feelings and I think that that is a necessary part of the journey toward being able to forgive.
Honest, yes, but I keep thinking that if I were just a better, stronger person, maybe I could do this forgiveness thing without needing my W's remorseful apology. I've come a long ways, but there is yet a long way to go.
Quote: I know that for myself, as with many others, the direction of reconcilation is rarely linear in nature. Along with steps there are plateaus where progress has to be processed, assimilated, expanded upon and solidified before we can safely move forward.
Frequently, positive growth can be nearly invisible to our inner eye except, of course, through retrospect.
Great stuff here, Jeannine. I need to keep reminding myself that small backsteps aren't necessarily catastrophes. I'm not very patient and continually look for the shortcuts to a M that is whole again.
Quote: It may be true that your W is incapable of empathy for your feelings right now or that she can't feel remorse for the damage her actions have brought to your M, but it may also prove true that she will acquire that ability as life peels away the outer layers of her cocoon ... little by little.
God, I hope so. I just keep thinking that this is the one thing that is holding us back from truly getting past all this and reaching new highs in our love, in our M.
Quote: You are obviously further up the road than your W in terms of relationship skills and your perspective of the A is in opposition to your W's. This is bound to cause you great discomfort and frustration.
Unfortunately, my relationship skills have mainly been honed only since that fateful day in February. Previously I didn't think about it, perhaps even wallowed in not thinking about it (i.e., real men don't have "relationship skills"). But it IS frustrating now to be the one to be able to read the roadmap to a better R, while having a spouse who is unable or unwilling to read it too.
Quoting shinybear:I also get the sense that CJ isn't as "sorry" for the A as I'd like him to be!!! Sometimes I wonder if he really IS sorry, although he did say so a long time ago.
I guess it would help me to hear it more often, when memories get to me etc. "I'm sorry I caused you so much pain...I'm sorry I was so selfish...I'm sooo sorry I lied to you and betrayed your trust!"
Oh to hear those words! sigh....
Can I admit to feeling a little good that it's not just me who doesn't get the heartfelt repeated apology? Not that I don't wish it for you too, but sometimes I think that no one else is as heartless as my W.
Quote: I have some trouble with your W's attitude toward the A. Sorry it hurt you, but not sorry it Happened??? WHAT? That's the moral reasoning of a 4-6 year-old, "it's only wrong if you get caught!"
My thinking, exactly!
Quote: Brian, would you say that prior to the A you were the one with more control in your M? I'm just wondering if your W is (perhaps unconsciously) NOT admitting to wrong-doing, not humbling herself, not apologizing because now the balance is tipped in HER favour and she wants to keep you on your toes??? Like the "trying to" comment?
OK, Shiny, now you're hitting too close to home. I didn't think that I had more control, but I know that this was a BIG issue for my W. Example: I used to pay the bills and would complain loudly about her spending habits. I thought she spent frivilously, and that we would be better able to afford the things we really wanted if we didn't piss it away on inconsequential things. She felt controlled by this, and responded by spending even more. Eventually, I turned the bill-paying over to her and just said, "you make it work", and things have been better since then. There are other examples too, where she has felt bullied and controlled by me. So, yeah, maybe there is something here about her feeling like an apology is some kind of subjugating act, and that she feels more in control if she doesn't give me what I want.
.
...that's not so great, we're going to see our C in the next few weeks for a "tune up".
