My W too is the one more prone to hold onto old resentments, old grudges. It's one of her worst qualities, actually (well, other than the whole cheating on her husband thing). I will forgive, I have no doubt about that. I'm just not quite there yet. It sure would be easier if my W expressed true gut-wrenching sorrow about it.
Some would say that forgiveness is not appropriate or even possible unless the person being forgiven is sorry. I heard a rabbi say that once (no, I'm not Jewish). I have some sympathy for that way of thinking, but ultimately, I think I agree more with the "forgiveness is a gift you give yourself" thinking, which says that the act can be separated from whether or not the person being forgiven is penitent.
Well, I leave on a 2 1/2 day trip to Vegas with my W tomorrow. She said earlier today that she's really looking forward to it. Probably not as much as I am, but it was nice to hear her say that anyway. It'll be our 1st trip alone since the birth of our 7yo son. Hard to believe I've not made sure to make important stuff like this happen in the past 7 years. One of my many failings. Anyway, we aren't much for gambling (we'll do a little, but I guess I fear the prospect of losing more than I get excited by the prospect of winning), so instead we'll see a show, get massages, and just be together. It's hard for me not to think of this as a sort of 2nd honeymoon (what with my W just cutting contact with the OG less than a week ago), but I'm trying not to let my expectations get too high. I just wish the trip could be longer.
I think that I am going to save your list of "hardest to forgive" to my journal on my hard drive. You organized and articulated my thoughts and feelings quite cleanly.
One minor difference for me is that the whole mess my H put us through has plunged me into clinical depression. This has added an additional anchor around my neck.
Tbone said something about the "anger phase". I'm glad to hear him use the word "phase" because I was beginning to think that I might never be free of it. It took me a long time to enter this phase, but now that I'm here, I really feel entrenched.
I agree with your point of view in regard to forgiveness. You are wise in not verbally announcing something like that until you are ready, but work daily toward that until then. Perhaps as you get to the parts of your list that you know you can move forward on, you can specifically give forgiveness to her rather than trying to accomplish it all at once. So in essence you are working on the whole list at once, but verbalizing only those points that you have resolved for yourself. I'm being redundant, huh.
Hello! I hope you two have a great time in Vegas. My H and I went thru alot of the same issues as you and W. Except I was a WAW, then he had a affair after 7 months of waiting for me to wake up.... any long story short he had a hard time saying goodbye to Ow. Lied to me so many times She also was married AND having a on/again off/again 6 yr P/A with a friend of ours who has been married about 20 yrs!!! She definetly wanted all three men on her line.... So he had to say goodbye in his own way....finding out she had slept with 2 of his friends that he introduced her to help put the icing on the cake..... anyway don't give up on her!!!! Kim
"Those who don't read, have no
advantage over those who can't"
Mark Twain
Sorry I ended that post so abrutly..... My H told me once that I was so wise for waiting him out and being patient.... he thanked me so many times. I hated that he hurt over her but she represented alot of good times and feelings to him and I had to let him grieve in his own way. The trust issue is hard. Shiny is so wise.....the best thing that has came from all of this is my new friendship with my H. I still hurt and get mad and want to yell at him....but there is no point to that. None at all. Read After the Affair as Shiny or LL suggested. Also The 5 Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs. You giving her space and understanding her feelings as she gets over OG will come back to you in many positive ways. I did read that once women stray if they work on their marriages that they normally won't stray again!!!! Men, well thats another story. Take Care & Good Luck!!! Kim aka KIP my thread is in Hopefulness
"Those who don't read, have no
advantage over those who can't"
Mark Twain
Vegas update: It was a really really excellent 2 1/2 days, everything I could have hoped it would be. Had a 2nd honeymoon feeling to it. Lots of togetherness, and lots and lots of s**. Went to a musical (Mama Mia), had massages, laid around the pool, and did a lot of walking around the hotels and casinos on the Strip. Never got around to gambling, though, we kept saying that we would do that "a little later". Nobody here at work understands that ("You went to Vegas and didn't gamble? What's up with that?"). I only wish we could have stayed longer.
But coming back to reality isn't so bad - it's a much better reality than it was just a few weeks ago. I'm feeling much more confident about the future. We can make this M something better than it's ever been. I'm also much more confident that I can make her happy, that she will soon get to the point (if she isn't already) of realizing that in staying with me, she isn't just "settling", and that she's not just staying for the sake of the kids, which her half-hearted, half-committed D-day words implied. I hope this post-Vegas high lasts for awhile, it's so nice.
Coincidently, the stack of mail waiting for us when we got back included a bill for the no-longer-secret cellphone. This was actually a good thing, because it showed that she had changed the billing address (from the OG's house), which showed that she wasn't going to try to hide it. Though I was a little curious, I just ignored it and didn't open it. I guess I was trying to return the gesture that she made in making the bill available to me by not insisting on seeing it. Plus, it's old news now, and knowing how many times she called him no longer matters. Onward and upward.
Things have been going quite well for us in general. Have been slowly coming down from the Vegas "high", and things have mostly continued from there, notwithstanding a nasty little bump in the road last night. The week went well, we had a nice 4th with a block party. She got called off from work on the 5th, so we got to spend a nice day together, mostly out by the pool, and it culminated in my giving her a long massage (I learned a few new tricks having gotten a massage from a professional in Vegas). I was richly rewarded for that!
However, last night she came home from work about half an hour late, which started up some stress for me, since I know that she used to regularly talk to the OG during her long commutes to and from work. I probably shouldn't let it get to me anymore, but it does. Then I got into an argument with my 14yo stepD, and my W stayed out of it instead of taking my side, which only encouraged my stepD, and pissed me off. So then I decided to check her cellphone (her "regular" one, not the secret one which is now gone), which I haven't done in weeks. She had put a passcode on it so that I couldn't check it. Feeling entitled, I asked her why she had the code and if I could have it. She said that she had put the code on a long time ago (probably when she got the other phone), and grudgingly gave it to me. Turns out the code is a combination of her age and the OG's age, which of course pissed me off even more. I asked her whether she is still talking to him. She said no, that it was completely over, and that I should know that by how good things have been lately between us. I accused her of keeping the memory of the A alive with these little remnants, like the passcode. She said that the code has just gotten easy for her to remember, that's all, and that she would change it. I told her that I still struggle sometimes with the fact of the A, she said that she knows and that she understood. In the end, we hugged and kissed, and said ILY to each other.
So I guess the evening ended OK, but I'm still annoyed with her. I do believe that she's not seeing or talking to him, but I also don't think that still having the old passcode is simply an oversight. I think she hangs onto these little reminders and resists totally letting go. On the one hand, if ever I bring up the subject of the A, she says that she doesn't want to think or talk about it anymore, and that it's completely over, but on the other hand she keeps these little reminders for herself. It's totally aggravating.
It's just a bump in what has become a smoother road, so I'll keep it in perspective. But it's a reminder that all will not be smooth sailing from here.
Listen to her about looking at how good things are going. When I read your posts it is like going back in time for me. Things were going great and then I would snoop and find she was still e-mailing these "friends". (guys she met on match.com that pumped up her ego, but only electronic contact) It was nothing of any substance but it certainly pissed me off, especially when she would lie about ongoing contact. We like talking to people who make us feel good and that is hard to let go of and "when" all contact will truly stop is up to her. My W finally gave up on it because she never figured out how I got so much information and was tired of me being crabby about it. I effectively "broke her" of it but I don't recommend my methods as they will drive both of you crazy. Now I know better. It would have taken less time if I would have left it alone and focused on forgiveness and making myself the best H ever. You want some promise that she won't ever leave again? Your best shot is to show her you are an amazing person by forgiving, growing and loving her. You helped push her away now start pulling her towards you by your actions. Don't be petty and resentful unless you like misery. Does she deserve it? Maybe not. Does she "owe you"? Probably so. Holds her hand as you walk together but don't "pull her" along.
I had a FIL who put up with unbelieveable antics from my MIL. I said many times how I could never live with someone who was such an emotional wreck. Yet, at his wake she called him her "rock" and said she never would have made it through life without him. Now she is dealing with her actions and him being gone 20 years sooner than expected. He loved her and knew she needed him and so he chose to stay with her for 45 years.
Drop your suspicions and you continue a postive evolution of your R. If you keep "chasing the ghost" you will only frustrate her as she is making many positive steps. She is probably progressing as fast as she can so be patient. I think you handled the passcode very well but please stop snooping.
An update: Overall, things generally continue to go well, although there have been a few snags. W was sick yesterday - strange intermittent sharp abdominal pains. Took her to the ER, spent 3 hours there, but they couldn't find anything wrong. Blood work was fine, CAT scan didn't show anything, appendix was fine, etc. So we just came home and she's going to see her regular GYN in a few days if the pains don't improve. They seemed to subside somewhat over the course of the day.
Two nights ago, we had an argument as we were about to turn in for the night. Can't even really remember how it started. It had something to do with how she seemed to be pulling away a little, and my uneasiness over that. She said that she was a bit resentful that I hadn't even mentioned that July 4th was the 10th anniversery of her dad's death, and she felt unsupported on that day. In truth, I had thought about it, but didn't want to bring it up and remind her of it. That was dumb, I guess. She still feels the loss quite a bit, even after 10 years. Anyway, I should have tried to be supportive. But she seemed to be punishing me excessively for this oversight, and it made me angry. After all, I'm still dealing with a fair amount of pain myself, and I (selfishly) think that she should be taking that into consideration before she accuses me of being insensitive. Later in the conversation I asked her if she was even sorry for being unfaithful. It was probably the wrong moment to ask, but in any case she said "not really". I didn't expect a whole-hearted sorrow-fest, but I did expect something more than "not really". I then said that I didn't see how she could simultaneously say she loves me and not be sorry for betraying me. She said, "well, that's just how I feel. I love you, but I don't really feel sorry right now". I told her that I was really trying to find a way to trust her again, but that I don't see how I can. I mean, if she's not even sorry she was unfaithful, then what within her will prevent her from doing it to me again?
I felt so hurt and angry. This was not an argument I wanted. I didn't feel like I'd picked a fight. Quite the opposite, I was trying to be communicative and not let a small problem become a big one. I've learned (somewhat to my surprise) during the course of the last few months that it's me, not her, who really does a better job of communicating real thoughts and feelings, things that are more than just small talk. I thought about that, and tried to set aside (again!) my need to have her be sorry (this issue will continue to be a big one, I think), and instead focus on how she was feeling about her dad. We laid on the bed in the dark on opposite sides of the bed silently for maybe 10 minutes. Although I really wished she would make the 1st move, I knew she wouldn't, and I didn't want to go to sleep angry, so I moved over and put my arms around her. She hugged me so tight, laid on my chest, and we fell asleep like that. Sometimes these hugs show me more than she's ever willing to say.
Yesterday evening, in the spa, she came over to me and very unexpectedly said that she had been so glad that I'd made the move to hug her that night, that she'd felt so bad, and that she had slept so well after. Half of me wanted to continue to talk about it, but I just dropped it. She doesn't make these gestures often, best not to discourage it.
This stuff will continue to come up. Her being truly sorry for the betrayal is important to me. It eventually needs to be her attitude, or it will be an ongoing sore spot and source of problems.
Excellent, wonderful, stupendous! 