Moving here from the Infidelity forum. For some reason, I couldn't post anymore there; is that what people mean when they say they were "locked out"? Anyway, I'd been thinking it was about time I moved over here. My 1st thread was getting long and I think my W and I are sort of moving on to the next stage of A recovery, whatever that may be. Here's the link to my 1st thread:
The Nutshell Summary Personal: Me: 41, automotive engineer W: 39, nurse Together 11 years, M for 8 Kids: StepD 14, stepS 13, sons 7 and 6
History: Early 2/03: W begins A 2/26/03: W says "not sure I love you anymore". I think of her as a possible WAW, don't suspect A. Find DB, start DBing, some baby steps seem to be happening. 5/08/03: D-day, after I find incriminating emails. W says she doesn't want to break up the family, is willing to stay married (mainly for the sake of the kids), will break off all contact with the OG. 5/15/03 ish: I snoop and find out that she continued to call him. Confrontation #2. She again agrees to stop. 5/30/03: W gets new secret cellphone. I snoop and find it the next day, but decide to give her some space and not confront her about it then. 6/15/03: Father's Day. I get my 1st ILY from her since January. 6/19/03: W finds out that I know about the cellphone when she tries to access her account online. I immediately find out that she knows, because of an automatically generated email sent to me by the cellphone company. I decide to confront her immediately.
Summary of Confrontation #3 As a title for this thread, I almost chose, "Stop F***ing Calling the OG!", but decided on a less negative one. After all, other than the continued contact (no small matter, to be sure), things have definitely been improving in our R. We've been spending more time together, and enjoying it, with lots of affectionate touching and even some pretty wonderful sex.
Anyway, the confrontation went about as well as I could have hoped. She said that she had just found it so hard to stop talking to him cold turkey, but that in the past few weeks she had only been talking to him like a friend (e.g., no ILY's). She also said that she had seen him a few times since D-day (she had repeatedly lied about this, too), but not in the last few weeks, and that she had not slept with him since D-day. I mostly believe her on this (but who knows). She said that her plan had been to stop all contact with him once she felt "ready", and that she thought that she was "almost" to that point. She said that she thought that things between us had gotten much better, and that as things with me improved, that she felt less and less like she needed to talk to him. She also said, however, that she didn't yet trust in my love and the changes that I have made. She worried that things would return to the way they were before, and that I just want her back because of my competitiveness and need to win. She continues to think of him as her "fallback position", if things don't work out with me. She recognizes, however, that improving our M requires that she stop all contact with him, and that she has been very selfish about this, and very insensitive to the way this makes me feel.
For my part, I was relatively calm and tried to choose my words carefully. I told her that I love her very much, but that I'm done with the situation the way it is. Knowing that she is calling the OG and lying to me about it is driving me crazy. I told her that up til now I'd been careful not to issue ultimatums, and that I'd been trying to give her space and let her come to her own decision to stop contacting the OG, but that I am now at the point where she would be risking everything if she were to continue to contact him and lie about it.
I told her that the changes I have made in myself were real and would be long lasting. I also suggested that there were steps we could take together, like seeing a MC, that would help us to make changes in the ways in which we interact that might also be helpful over the long term (not much of a positive reaction to that from her).
She said that she hated feeling controlled by me (i.e., in regards to my insistence that she stop all contact with the OG). I don't understand this at all; I'm not really a controlling person, or at least I don't think so. As some sort of compromise, instead of immediately stopping all contact, she suggested that she could agree to stopping all contact with the OG by the end of this week (the 27th), that she will only contact him by phone, that she will tell me when she has done it, and that she will get rid of the no-longer-secret cellphone. I guess in her mind this gives her some control over how it ends between them. Whatever. I agreed to this, even though I think it's going to be a tense week. We have plans to go to Las Vegas for a few days starting on the 29th, so I guess this trip will mark a new beginning for us.
Recommitment Issues I'll list a few of the issues that I/we will need to start or continue to deal with as we move forward. I'm sure it's a list y'all in piecing could make yourselves (and probably add a bunch I haven't thought of yet). So here they are, in no particular order.
How to trust that the A is truly over, and that she isn't contacting him anymore. How to trust ANYTHING she says. How to know that she won't ever do this again. How to get past thoughts of the OG, especially in regards to sex. That she doesn't seem truly sorry for the A. That she still basically blames me for causing her A. How to make her comfortable enough to have R talks. How to get her to open up about what she really wants from me. How to get her to realize and respond to the fact that just as there are/were changes that she needed me to make, there are changes that she needs to make for me. How to get her to take some responsibility for understanding the A and for learning how to go forward from here (e.g., going to a MC, doing some reading, etc). How to have an argument or disagreement without fearing that it will push her back to the OG. How to regain my self-respect. How to regain my respect for her.
Well, I'm sure I'll add to the list over time, but it's a start.
welcome to piecing! sorry that w still wants to contact og...but at least she was honest about it.. my h too kept in contact with ow for a while (honestly who knows what the deal is currently) and at first didn't see what the big deal was...oi vey...sometimes they just don't get it.
focus on what's going well and what is working for you.
glad your planning to take a trip with w and also glad that she at least has some time line as to when she'll stop talking to og...
I'm glad things seem to be going well for you (except for the phone contacts with the OM, of course). I can identify with every one of the issues you wrote. Congratulations on keeping your confrontation about the cell phone calm and mostly positive.
You know if you want to work on some of those things you can start counseling without your W. Try to find a SBT trained counselor in your area to talk to. In my sitch, it really helped with self-respect and obsessive thoughts of the OM issues. If you find one that is familiar with the DB principles, you can also bounce your DBing strategies off of the MC before applying them to your R.
Try to set some concrete goals for each of your issues. Ask yourself how you will know if there is any improvement in a given area. For example, how will you know that anything your W says is true? Much of trust is obviously a faith issue, but there are smaller, measurable steps that can help. For example, if your W tells you she will be home at a certain time of day, then follows through on time, do you notice that?
You and your W have apparently negotiated a withdrawal program for contact with the OM. Assuming that she follows through on her end of the bargain, are you ready to hear about each of the calls without punishing her for each and every disclosure? You seem to be doing a great job of not being controlling, but it is still an issue for her since she mentions it to you and it won't bode well for your DB efforts if you're negative about the disclosures. Make sure you thank her for telling you each time she does.
Hi guy: I've been watching your posts in the other forum. You guys have so much positive going on. MC would be so helpful on this recommittment issue and helping your W see the incompatibility of having a M with a fallback position built in.
I agree that you should shop around for a good one. My H and I have found a great one that incorporates DB work, Gottman work, Love Languages, etc. Even then, we both had to agree that we felt comfortable with her after a few sessions.
Hi Brian, I see you decided to move to piecing, I too am considering. I replied to you post on my thread so I won't go into it all again. I am very proud of you, you seemed to have handled the cell phone confrontation very well. I don't think I could have done the same. Considering how I just reacted to the OW calling me last night. Even though I know h hasn't been calling or taking h calls, it didn't help to hear what s had to say. Although LL thinks I shouldn't listen to what s says it could be true & then again it could be a way to put a wedge in my M. I don't know. I hope everything is still going well & I'm happy about your trip. I'm sure you & your wife will have a wonderful time & hopefully bring you even closer together. ~~K~~
Hi Brian, Just wanted to drop in and welcome you to the "piecing" neighborhood. I've been here for a year now, and recently OM has re-entered the picture and things have not been going well lately, so I will keeping tabs on your story with interest.
Hi Brian, Welcome to piecing...the hottest forum on the BB! (I may be a bit biased as it is MY home, but... ).
I think the gradual "weaning" you W is doing might be better in the long run than you demanding a clean end NOW. Why do I say this? Well, in my sitch, after bomb #2 (check my summary at the top of my post if this doesn't make sense) CJ (my H) "broke up" with his EA/PA/soulmate on the phone with me listening. It was a weak ending to be sure. I SHOULD have known better, in fact I DID. I questioned how on earth an A that had been going on for several months, which included plans to run off together (and some unspeakable lies!) could end so simply.
Well it didn't. She was back in touch with him the next day i worked. And they continued their A for months behind my back. By the time my H realized it had been a HUGE mistake, the OW was insisting on continued contact or she'd call me and spill the beans. Too weird...but back to YOUR issues.
How do you trust that the A is really over? Well at first you probably won't. One clear indication will be getting RID of that bloody cell phone. But prepare to have your heart thump whenever the phone rings, whenever your W checks her e-mail or is out for what seems like suspiciously long times. (Like my H's favourite 2 hour trip to the video store up the street).
At that time, with him NOT clearly committed to our M (and me in the dark about OW again) I didn't question him. He told me afterwards that I SHOULD HAVE!!!
Rest assured, however that as things return to normal, day by day, these gut wrenching feelings of "she's thinking about him, calling him" WILL fade.
How do you trust "anything she says?" Like an earlier poster recommended: pay attention to the positives: when she says something and follows through.
I CANNOT emphasize enough the inrediblr focus-shifting power of getting into the habit of listing 3 positives each day. (credit where due: LL ).
Trust ME, Bri after the WHOMPING lies my H told not only to me but to OW too, I was in a total head spin over just WHO WAS THIS MAN??? (Samples: he told her we were separated. No. He told her our house was for sale. Not even a breath of that. He told her everyone here knew about her...NO! He told her he had painted the marvelous landscape that my BIL had painted for us as a wedding gift!!! He told her my brother punched him out. No! He told her all kinds of lies about our sex life. Then of course there were the lies he told ME...there is no OW. Okay it was dinner and a kiss...oy vey, just read my summary!"
The purpose of this rant...I do most days trust this man, I'd say, about 90%. Sometimes when an "unknown" number comes up on our caller ID (which was his Idea so we'd know if OW had tried to call...a nice reassurance for me that he DIDN'T want contact with her anymore), I get suspicious. In fact I picked one up the other day and was hung up on. My worst thought there was that it WAS her, pitiful creature, and she got spooked to hear my live voice (ususally the machine picks up).
How do you know she won't ever do this again? Well, you may hate to hear this, but you won't. Sure there will be signs and reassurances as your M moves forward and gets stronger...for example my H still feels incredible remorse for his two A's and all the pain they brought into our lives. Also the dynamic between us has changed. It HAD to change! He now calls me on behaviour that is controlling, unduly sarcastic, hurtful and we talk it out, instead of letting it fester.
Another thought: You may not be able to fully trust that SHE won't stray again, but I'll bet you have a WHOLE lot more trust in YOURSELF to be able to handle it and BE OKAY regardless, right?
Thoughts of the OG and sex. Oh those were tough. At first I had several "flash backs" (can it be called that when it's imaginary?) full visual, intrusive images of them "doing it" and of course much more enthusiastically than with us. I would actuall have a full body spasm...something like what people with post traumatic stress disorder experience. NOT FUN!
With time these too faded. I've had maybe one in the last 3 weeks. They used to be several times a day. What helped after the first while was to let it wash over me, and then distract myself. CHOOSE CONSCIOUSLY not to feed that line of thinking.
Turns out as H reveled the last time we talked about it, that all was not "fire works and champagne corks flying" in that department with them anyway ...I'm sorry but that was good to know (history of sexual problems in our M).
Even if sex with OM was great...chances are it was all about that initial rush of hormones, that chintzy honeymoon thing that NEVER lasts...so comfort yourself with that at the very least.
She doesn't seem truely sorry for the A and still blames you, huh? Well my H went through a fair bit of time in this headspace too. He was "angry man" for a time. It was MY fault for having stomped on his gentle nature, for being such a controlling b!tch that he couldn't even come and express his discontent directly to ME!!!
Our MC helped him see that regardless of the role I played in helping to deteriorate our M and R, his CHOICE of what to do with his pain was HIS CHOICE...and NOT in any way MY responsibility. He sees this very clearly now.
R talks and opening up about what she wants? Key here is to hone your listening skills, my friend. I can't tell you how many times I had to bite my tongue and just LISTEN, and VALIDATE what my H was saying. Even if I had the perfect rebuttal all ready to roll.
You want the R talks and the talks about her needs to be something that is positive for her. Timing can be important. Some folks here have set R-talk times with a time limit so things don't get out of hand or seem like a rehashing of all old woes. More like a check in on how we're each doing...what's good? What could be improved on...then lets see a movie, eat dinner, do someting FUN!
One thing that others have done (me too) was to ask in a non accusatory fashion: what was the OP giving you that I wasn't and how can I help fulfill that need? H revealed that his OW listened and commiserated with him on his work woes, she had a controlling H so they had lots to share there , she made him feel special, wanted....Brian WE can do all of that!!!
I would strongly suggest that you with great earnesty ask your W to read "after the affair". It really opened my H's eyes to what both sides go through (have YOU read it? Do!) and what is expected and even required of the spouse who strayed.
Do these things Brian and I think the self-respect and respect for her will begin to build on their own.
I wish there were easier answers to all of your questions. The simple fact is that nothing is ever for certain in anything. I wanted guarantees as much as you but they do not exist. How I survived was to focus on what was working in the M and thrive on that. Her contact w/OG will probably continue until she is very comfortable with the M. I was watching some show about affiars and Dick Clark said he didn't stop cheating on his W until they were "best friends". I thought that comment spoke volumes about infidelity.
My W never confessed to anything nor do I have proof of a PA, all I had was electronic evidence that she was trying to meet people and statements from her after the fact that she was "done" with the M. I "busted" her several times and was constantly asking her questions that I already knew the answers to. It didn't stop anything. I went to see the best Atty in town and was just days from throwing her out when she had her epiphany. Either she is phsychic or someone tipped her off. Your W is acting very similar to mine and others on this board. You have a few things to do: Love, Forgive, Trust, Respect. However what she has done will make all of these a challenge. Realizing that these things are a choice is huge. Making this R work is a choice. Both your choice and her choice. Ready for the next challenge? What happens when you struggle to do all of these things like I am? What happens when just one year after thinking that you couldn't live without them you aren't sure you want them anymore? You can question her loyalty because of her behavior but you are just as prone to be a WAS later. Nothing is guaranteed.
The point is the past is done and she may never regret her actions like you think she should. You have a family to keep together, children to be an example to and a W that you said "for better or for worse" to. Focus on your M and W and when those "thoughts and flashbacks" occur stomp them immediately. I mean as soon as they show up, change gears, runa away from them, make them stop. They can chew you up if you don't. That is what is causing me grief occasionally.
You have good communication and contact right now. Use Vegas to start new and never take your M for granted again. Life will be good for you when you Love, Forgive, Trust Respect.
LL, dcr, Jeannine, talitsa, Kim, KAW, SB, and tbone,
Wow, what a great welcome. Thanks. I've read most of all of your various threads (well, maybe not all of LL's, I'd have to quit my job just to have enough time! LOL).
Only one day into Piecing and there was another big development last night. 1st, some more background. During Confrontation #3 last Thursday, we argued briefly over the amount of time that she should have before ending all contact with the OG. I, of course, wanted it to end cold turkey, and she wanted until the 28th (the day before Vegas). I argued that only ending it on the 28th would cast a pall on the trip, with both of us not being able to help but think of the fact that she had only ended it the day before. Ultimately, I had agreed on the 27th (is negotiating this sort of thing freakin nuts, or what?), but I was clear that I thought it would be much better if she ended it sooner.
Anyway, on Friday, I had gone on a long-planned guys-only golf trip to Palm Springs for the weekend. Before I left, I left a card for my W to find in her car which basically said that we are going through some difficult times, but that I love her and need her to help us through this. It was a store-bought card which happended to have just the right words (I rarely buy cards with much prose in them; they almost never say quite what I want to say), and I added some thoughts of my own. She called after she read the card (my cellphone coincidentally rang just as my BIL was in his backswing - perfect timing) and said how much she appreciated the card, and I could really hear it in her voice. When I got back Sunday evening, however, though she was very affectionate and sweet, I could somehow detect a little distance.
Yesterday evening, she was again very affectionate and sweet. Big long hugs. We've been hugging a lot more lately, but these hugs were, I don't know how to put it...somehow a little more intense and at the same time somewhat sad or distant. I don't know what made me think that exactly (how do you get all that just out of a hug), but I didn't question it.
Later, I started to initiate sex, but she just wanted me to hold her. Which would have been fine, except that I still had the sense that something was up. So I asked if anything was wrong. She said "well, earlier today I did what you wanted". She had met the OG for a final goodbye at some park (she didn't say where, I got the impression it was a place that they had met previously), and said that she had closed the "secret" cellphone account and gotten rid of the phone. In my worst DBing fashion, I asked whether she had kissed him or told him that she loved him (no, and no, she said). She started to tear up a little, and said that she was feeling sad and just needed a little time to get over this final goodbye, and said it mainly felt like she was losing a good friend. She also said that it was hard to hurt someone that she cared about so much (I guess he took the goodbye pretty hard.) The fact that she didn't want to hurt someone she cared about was very annoying to me - she hasn't much cared how much pain she's put me through these last few months - but I just let it go. I then asked whether she felt like she had had to fake it with me these last couple of days, with all the affection she had shown. She said no, absolutely not, if she had been faking, she would have just had sex and said nothing. She then said that she has been wanting to spend more time with me and has been feeling better about us than she had in years (she stressed the word "years"). She then hugged me very tight, and we basically just fell asleep after that.
While I wish she had no sadness about saying goodbye to the OG, that's probably unrealistic. But, the way she was and the things she said sounded real. My intuition, I think, has been honed over these last few months and I can almost instinctively tell when she is lying now. I think she was being very truthful last night. I think she truly intends that yesterday's goodbye is to be forever, and that she really does want our M to work. Of course, whether she follows through on never contacting him again remains to be seen; I'll continue to DB, hope, and pray. As she said herself, the better our M gets, the less she'll be thinking about him.
Another positive thing was that she ended it 4 days before our negotiated end date. She didn't say why and I didn't ask, but maybe she didn't think there was any point to dragging it out, or maybe she finally agreed with my reasoning and wanted to end it in time to be happy for the Vegas trip. I don't know, but I'm happy about it.
I really feel like a page has finally been turned. In the numerous times since D-day when she has told me that she would not see or contact the OG, I've always sort of known, or at least strongly suspected, that they were lies, or said half-heartedly. Yesterday felt like the truth. I feel like I can finally exhale.
We had coincidentally scheduled a night out tonight - a movie and then dinner - and I'm taking tomorrow off to spend with her and the kids. I know she's a little sad, but I'm going to make it fun, with no R talk. It's time for both of us to relax together. All of the recommitment issues will have to wait, for the moment.
Quoting shinybear:I CANNOT emphasize enough the inrediblr focus-shifting power of getting into the habit of listing 3 positives each day. (credit where due: LL ).
SB, let me 1st say that you wrote an awesome post, one that I'll be rereading several times and responding to more over the next few weeks. OK, today's positives are easy:
1. My W said her final goodbye to the OG yesterday. 2. The "secret" cellphone is gone. 3. It's date night tonight, and I'll be sleeping in tomorrow, and spending the day with my W and kids.
I may never have 3 positives this positive ever again!
).
on the phone with me listening. It was a weak ending to be sure. I SHOULD have known better, in fact I DID. I questioned how on earth an A that had been going on for several months, which included plans to run off together (and some unspeakable lies!) could end so simply.
