I think that when there is no longer a box at the bottom of the last page of a thread, that is how you know it has been "locked"? I am assuming my other thread finally got too big.
Anyway...greetings DB friends, I hope you all had a great weekend. I myself had so much sex that I can barely walk, and he has already asked me this morning for "more" tonight...to which I happily said "I can't wait".
Hey DQ - the other tip off that your thread is locked is that little padlock icon by the forum title.
I'm so jealous of you right now... I myself had crappy chore-sex one time over the weekend and know that resets her "sex timer" for another try in maybe a week or longer. 5
And Cinco....d'oh! Um yeah, the little lock by the side of my thread, yeah...that's a good clue that it is locked. I had to laugh when I read that!
I have to address something I have seen in a few different posts by HD men about their LD wives....
I have seen a few of you say, essentially, that your wives did "seem" to enjoy sex a lot in the past, and now she may be re-writing history or you aren't sure if you were reading her wrong and she never enjoyed it, or maybe she has always been faking it...the general idea here is that you don't actually *know* for sure if she liked sex before or not, but she *seemed* to.
So...I have to just say as a former LD wife who is now not only HD but also I have FINALLY been liberated into my own sexual self...
...that I now "get" something I never "got" before. It is difficult for me to explain it but I will try....
With my fiance, we discuss sex, we talk about what we like, we talk about fantasies, we talk about the sex we had last night or the sex we want to have tomorrow night. I tell him specifically the things he does that drive me crazy, and he does the same. In other words, there would never be any "question" in his mind whether I am enjoying the sex or not. BECAUSE WE OPENLY DISCUSS IT!
And what I "get" now that I didn't "get" when I was LD and married, is that if you are not close, connected and inimate enough to actually TALK about your sex life with your spouse, then you will not ever be sure if it was "as good for them as it was for you", as the saying goes.
Now, I can imagine that many of you men would say "well I for one would love to talk about it, but she won't, so what can I do?"
Unfortuantely, if you feel that way, you are probably way off base and you have some inner work to do. If you and your wife and not freely discussing sex and what turns you both on and how to experience that together, then it is YOUR issue as well as hers. She is not stonewalling you alone, although it may appear that way to you. But you are actually stonewalling her, too.
I know that my ex-h would have said "I would talk but she won't so its her fault, not mine". And yet, why would I have talked to him when he was so insecure that anything negative I may have said would have sent him into a depression? And if I couldn't openly express something negative to him, then how could I openly express anything positive to him?
He and I never fully made ourselves so vulnerable to each other that we were willing to talk out loud. That made a huge wall up between us.
I now "get it". We weren't connected and that was obvious due to the fact that we literally could not even discuss our sex life.
Yes, I was a horrible wife and there are so many things I wish I had done differently...but as for how I felt about things and what might have helped, I really needed my ex-h to MAN UP about things and to initate open and honest discussions about things. But instead, he was too afraid to find out that maybe he wasn't "doing it" for me.
So he too, I would guess, would have said "she seemed to enjoy sex when we were first together, but later I wasn't so sure".
Well....when we were first together, why would he only say I "seemed" to enjoy it? Because he was too afraid to ASK ME directly if I enjoyed it. He could not say for sure if I enjoyed it or not, because we never directly discussed it.
I didn't know it then, but I do know now, that without that open intimacy and being able to discuss things, we were never going to get anywhere. How could we improve if we literally didn't even speak of our desires? We both desired to be more initmate and wished we were happy, but if fear was choking us down and not allowing us to be vulnerable enough to at the very least, face the TRUTH each of us were feeling, then how could we ever have truly good sex?
I hope this makes sense. I hope some of you HD husbands can think this over. YOU are playing a part in your situation, too. And each time you agree to sex with your wife, without happy participation from her, you are giving her the message that you don't care enough about your sex life to really find out if it is good for her or not. You may not realize you are doing this, but you'll just have to trust me. Also, each time you are not brave enough to open that discussion, your wife goes a little further behind her own wall and figures you are not really all that serious about your own sex life and needs, or else you would speak of it.
One of the very important ingredients to my current excellent sex life is daily communication. This is in the form of compliments and naugthy talk, for fun...but it also includes very specific and detailed intimate information sometimes, too. There are always ways to improve, even when it ROCKS like my sex life...but it can't improve without discussion! And if we were too embarassed or afraid or unwilling to be vulnerable to discuss our sex life, it would not be what it is.
I wish I had known this when I was married. I wish my ex-h had the courage to actually speak to me about sex, during sex, after sex....any talking at all would have helped. How could he expect to REALLY know what I was thinking, feeling, whether I enjoyed sex or not, without talking to me about it?
Just my thought for the day...please don't take it too personally....just roll it around your head and try to realize, things are not always what they seem. Your wife not talking to you about sex is not just your wife's issue, it is yours as well.
Believe me NTE, I know OUCH...it cost me my marriage to get this knowledge. You might still have a shot to correct things, at least. I already had to take the bullet in the head for my own ignorance, and it did feel exactly like a bullet.
Dance, I know I have brought this up before. If she doesn't want to open up and talk about it, how do I make that happen? I always want to know how I did from her. And I do verbalize when she is doing something that feels really nice to me and guide her to what feels the best or what I want at the time. But for whatever reason she just does not want to talk about what she wants, needs or feels. Even things as simple as, "harder or softer?", "faster or slower?", I can't get feedback from her during the act of ML. Believe me I do ask and have never stopped asking.
It really just annoys her for me to ask, "Did you enjoy that? I want to know how intense it was for you." Maybe the difference is that she truly is LD. You and Ali I think are HD who had your desires squashed and then went back to your natural states of HD once the pressure of other stuff in your relationships were removed and you felt that connection again. For her it is ND until the pressure is off and then LD is her natural state if she feels connected.
She has never ever initiated, never told me she's horny. We can have the most wonderful romantic evening together and she would be perfectly happy for it end with us just going to sleep with no ML, if that's not LD I don't know what is.
When we first were together she didn't want to talk sex before during or after. I never thought anything of it, I just thought well as long as I am pleasing her and I knew I was pleasing her. I got enough feedback then to know. I guess to an LD it's, "well this feels nice, it can't get any better than this, end of discussion."
Cinco, yes, you may be right that there is something different about myself and Ali that your wife may never reach into for herself...but my guess is that she will first need the proper motivation to reach into herself for it.
Therefore, as part of your follow up to your ultimatum letter, you are going to have to explain to her very clearly how important good communication is to you. Don't just let it go. In fact, don't accept her willingness to agree to your letter without also her willingness to agree to open and honest communication.
This will be difficult for you and very difficult for her as well.
I want to say right now, when I was first together with my fiance, I literally could not even speak during sex. It was like I had lost my voice, even if I tried to speak even one word, there was no voice coming out. It took him months to make me realize that it wasn't actually about "dirty talk during sex"...it was about communication. Without communication we were never going to have truly fulfilling sex. It took me a very long time. And that goes for both the dirty talk and the direct communication.
Although I would say I was probably way more open during non-intimate times than your wife is, I was still very stunted.
So even though I may have been a closet HD, I was still under some kind of hypnosis that did not allow me to speak during sex or have meaningful conversations about it.
Again, my man is very good at not only sex, but also true intimacy. He is the one who got me to "see" this stuff and how true it is for EVERYONE. His vast experience allowed him to see the difference between sex and SEEEEEEEXXXXXXXX. And that difference is intimacy.
So....you are correct I am sure, that you wife will never just open her spout and tell you the things you need to hear from her....UNLESS she agrees to your letter, agrees to counseling, you both put in the effort to learn and grow together....and maybe you will be suprised after all?
Also, just one point about how it annoys her for you to ask "did you enjoy that, I want to know how intense it was for you". Well...you are going to need to brush up on your communication skills too, before this can get better. Because the gist of that question is basically "tell me I did you good". Now, while I totally get why you need to hear that, and you SHOULD hear that...but until she breaks free from behind her wall, she won't just go straight to that answer. This is "too deep" for her. She will have to start with much smaller things, even a coy smile at the thought of something that turns her on will be communication for her at this point. I don't know if this is making sense but I will try to explain better if not. Let me know.
Just realize that this will take a lot of time. I think it took me at least a full 6 months of regular, good, sex before I could actually even say one word during sex. It takes time...it takes patience...it takes learning and growing. I had no idea how much I would have to GROW in order to experience the great sex life I have now. I would have thought it would just be easy if two people have it "goin' on" that they could just "get it on" and all would roll through smoothly. My very knowlegable and beautiful fiance has taught me differently....it doesn't necessarily go smoothly at first. It takes time together to get your groove on, even for him with his experiences.
Hang in there and have HOPE! Your message above has the undertone of "but I don't think she has some magical ingredient inside of her and without it, we may be doomed". FORGET ALL OF THAT and have hope instead. PICTURE HER as you wish she could be with you. SEE IT in your mind. Stop dwelling upon her shortcomings and focus on her potential. IT IS THERE.
Well my first step to reading her "subtle" communications will be to have a little more light in the bedroom instead of the total darkness that she insists on. We do occasionally do something in daylight but the operative word is occasionally.
I know my post had that "missing the magic" undertone. This goes back to your old "DQ's sex blog" post about the only easy way for true success is for HD's to marry HD's and LD's to marry LD's. Otherwise it's the HD struggling to get the LD to discover what comes naturally for the HD and just getting frustrated because the HD doesn't understand the LD.
I have been with HD's remember? That's what the A's were all about (and have had HD girl friends before my M also). There was no coaxing any talk out of them, we would plainly tell each other what we wanted, talk dirty, whisper fantasies. No inhibitions or embarrassment, just great communication making for great sex.
Should I just add a paragraph about good communication in and out of the bedroom in my letter to my wife? I would love to help her find her voice and tell me plainly what she likes and how to improve things.
C - Of course I advocate that HD's and LD's stick together, but its too late once we've said "I do!" So you are stuck with the struggle, as you know... :0)
But still - take heart! No matter what you think you know about your wife, you are still going to end up NOT knowing SOMETHING about her...there are countless things she does not even know about herself yet!
As for adding another paragraph...I would not advise that. I think the "terms" of how you will both need to see your future lives together can be worked out together in counseling. I think you bascially need to get her on board before making her commit to certain acts. But once you get the commitment from her, then you are going to have to make sure you don't accept less than what you need. However...try very hard not to make what you "need" just look like a copy of something you have already had with another woman. Regardless of what you have had out there in the world with other HD's, you still don't know exactly WHAT you MAY have in the future with your wife. Don't try to make it the same...it must be its OWN beautiful and unique thing....that only you and she can share.
Cinco - I really have hope for you. I think you two can make it and she is going to really surprise you one day.
But its going to be an even longer and more painful road than what you have already traveled so I hope you are up for it. Just know that the long, difficult road will still be WAY better than a divorce!
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