Divorce and Children

[sgctxok]

Just so we don't send the wrong message...

I think it's fair to say that no kids want to see their parents divorce. So in that respect I agree, they will never be glad it happened.

But will they be ok? Can they not even just be ok, but thrive and blossom?

Absolutely.

And that's why, even if a couple does divorce, truly decent and right thinking people will make every effort to co-parent peacefully and amiably.

I know you FIB. I know in the deepest part of my heart that you will never allow your feelings about what has happened between you and your wife spill over on to your kids. I know that you will never diminish her with your words. I know you will always encourage your kids to have a healthy and good relationship with her as well as you.

My boys were older when this happened to me, and perhaps that's a little different, though I can't say if it's better or worse. But I can tell you that after over a year and half since the divorce, my two boys are living very normal and happy lives. They miss their mother I'm sure. But they know that it was her decision to move away from them, and they still visit with her when she makes an effort to see her.

No, children of divorce are not doomed.

Don't allow yourself to believe that lie.

Our childrens future, much like ours, will be as good as we allow it to be.

I take serious issue with this, so I am doing this separately not on FIB 's thread......and I'm doing it personally, not as your moderator.

But will they be ok? Can they not even just be ok, but thrive and blossom?

Absolutely.

We want to think so. It isn't completely true. It takes quite a bit.


I've been divorced a long time. I'm a child of divorce (I was 18) I've seen so many, many other folks who have been divorced a long time.

It isn't ok. They aren't ok. Sometimes they will even say, their parent's are happier now...but the kids aren't. They miss the emotional and financial security. They miss family meals. They miss the holidays. They miss weekends. They miss bedtime. They grieve. They 'hide' it sometimes.


You will do what you can to help them. Many don't 'thrive'. They merely 'survive'. And it takes a long time and a lot of help to get them to that point. And one of the parent's is usually a LOT less involved, and the kids FEEL the neglect.

And then there's the drama.



Our childrens future, much like ours, will be as good as we allow it to be.


It isn't that simple. It just isn't.






If you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice. But if you really have a choice....DON'T DO IT.




If you do it.....and have young children.........stay more than involved. Suck it up. Do what it takes for the children. Stop the drama with the ex. Just get over it.

Keep all the people involved in the children's lives as much as possible as if you were still married.

Get over the Other person. More harmful than the fact of the OP -- is fighting about and badmouthing the OP. Having the kids worry who they can tell about what. They may try to harmonize both or manipulate both....even if you aren't trying to get them to do that.



Learn to communicate well with your ex ... be friends as much as possible ....




Unfortunately...what kids need to see most for their security....lifelong commitment .... and how to make a relationship work ..... can't be done very easily when you divorce, even when you move on...... the new R is still short term enough and will take a very long time to prove it self. Words don't mean so much. It takes ACTION.

What WILL prove well is good will towards your EX.....not just in words....and if you can do that....maybe you can work it out with your spouse.

[Bworl]

You know, the biggest problem with these little threads that YOU start, is the fact that you are a moderator.

Because of that, these threads appear to have an authority, a credibility.

You do NOT possess the professional expertise in the form of training and education to make statements about the children of divorce.

For every story like YOURS, where there appear to be lifelong wounds that never heal, there are many other stories where children not only survive but thrive.

Given how many of the situations on this board will end in divorce, and how many of them have children involved, all you are managing to do is bring additional pain to these people.


You say that children will not be ok and will not be able to thrive and blossom.

Then turn around and say it will take quite a lot of work.


Well.....DUH!!


What about this mess will not take quite a bit of work!


I agree with about the last 1/3 or 1/4 of your post. But then, you are saying there pretty much what I tried to say to FIB.

Find a way to find peace between the two spouses, and focus on the children so that their life is a peaceful and normal as possible given the circumstances.


I think what really gets to me sometimes about you SG is that you feel no compunction whatsoever to use horrible scare tactics to almost bully people into NOT divorcing.


There is nothing healthy about a child watching ONE of his/her parents spend 3, 4, 5 or more years living a life where they weep, are anxious, cry for no good reason. There is nothing healthy about a child growing up learning that marriage vows mean that Daddy is allowed to live apart from us, with another person, stopping over every other weekend if it fits into his schedule.


If you're going to demonize children of divorce, let's at least be fair and present the WHOLE story for what you're suggesting as an alternative.


Then go take a look at this board and tell me how many of the situations here right now are HEALTHY for the children involved.



It's called propaganda, when the truth is what's called for.



Bill

[sgctxok]

It's called propaganda, when the truth is what's called for.


The truth is that children have a terrible time of it, even when the marriage was terrible to begin with.


THIS IS A PLACE TO SAVE MARRIAGES. Propaganda looks a lot different. Bullying looks a lot different.


Everyone knows not every marriage can or should be saved. But if they can be saved...it's worth every effort from YOU (you personally and you collectively), ME and the people involved to do so.

I will take a stand when I feel it's made light of.


I will take a stand when advice is harmful to marriage.




You also come off with credibility. When you post a lot or have been on the boards a lot....it comes off that way. You have a responsibility to speak for marriage.


When I post personal opinion I qualify it.




If you're going to demonize children of divorce, let's at least be fair and present the WHOLE story for what you're suggesting as an alternative.



How did I demonize the children. I didn't.

What part of the story are you looking for...how to raise children in a bad marriage. I don't suggest that. Make the best marriage you can.

What if you can't .... I already said that...if you can't you can't......but it's still not ok.





Some children do thrive. I have one that's thriving and one that gets very shy of survival. The thing is.....you have very little control when your home is split up.

[Lissie]

Sg.

You know I am happy that you started a thread of Divorce and Children.

I have to say that the number one priority on most on this board that is a parent is their children.

It isn't ok. They aren't ok.

This statement hurts very much to read. I feel like they will get to ok or better.

They miss family meals. They miss the holidays. They miss weekends. They miss bedtime. They grieve. They 'hide' it sometimes.

They miss the "old" routine, yes, but you can fill their hearts and love with a new routine. I am not saying it will be the same no, but it will be yours with your children.

Let them help YOU in making a routine, somthing they have always wanted to try.

Let them grieve with you when they want to grieve on a day when they just want to remember the old times, and nothing new has to be done that day. That day can just be a day of remembering and laughing, and grieving.

Our childrens future, much like ours, will be as good as we allow it to be.

Thank you Bill, Yes I agree with you 100 percent!

This thread, maybe should of been put on the Divorced forum, also

I would like to see what those wonderful parents have to say over there, that have been divorced for a while.

I am not saying getting a divorce is not going to way heavy on them. I am not saying that this is NOT a traumatic pain
yes, but most of us didn't have a choice.


And I think that most of us are ready to do it ALL and that task, that big heavy holy cow task, will be taken by us. Especially b/c most of us didnt' have a choice, and we fought for our marriges, how can we not fight for our kids?


But I am saying that this

Many don't 'thrive'. They merely 'survive'

Feels disrespectful to me as a mom that puts them first in all that I do.

My family and I could not find a divorced care group for my children in my area, so we were able to locate wonderful people, work togther and start one in their school. B/c people on THIS forum pointed me towards a divorced care link, and people in this forum helped me see how it has helped them. Slowly but surely.

My kids still hurt, yes, it has been 6 months since the divorce, It is still fresh, and new. I see them better, the pastor at church sees them better, My family sees them better. WE all HAVE a LONG way to go, I am sure it will be hard work everyday, but if that is what it takes, then so be it.

The parents here, all their, babies deserve and will get 100 percent of mom/dad time and family time, and grandparents and aunts and uncles or whoever they have.

I think that just b/c you said they don't thrive, I will be out to prove the statement wrong.

My X has taken away to many things so many. I refuse for him to take a way the ability for my children to thrive. I refuse it.



Oh yes I think that most here try to be cordial with their ex's and throw their own pissed offness out of the window when it comes to their children.

I think that most of the peeps, shut it, when it comes to the well being of their kids. Mrs H, how is that tongue? painful. Yes b/c she shuts it b/c of her beautiful boys, which I have met and they played and smiled and were very loving and caring.

I have been on the phone with some men and women from this forum that I have heard cry b/c of what their STBX or X have done in regards to their children, and it makes them fight and work even harder for their children.

The children see this, they know, they feel a certain safety.

This thread has me in tears this morning, b/c I will not allow this divorce crap to be the be all to end all of my children's life or mine for that matter.

Unfortunately...what kids need to see most for their security....lifelong commitment

WE have a commitment to children. They will always know it.



They put themselves last, in order for their children to still have a "normal" life.

We may not always get it right, and we may mess it up here and there, but damn it, the bottom line here is that these parents are going to want to raise their children, so much BETTER b/c of all of this.

I have heard children, of these LBS brag about their parents, I have met Althea's son. His face, his goals his dreams he told them to me , with a passion and a thriving look on his face. He smiled and juggled for us. He is a child of divorce. He will thrive, her 4 children will thrive. I met Tawny Ian's daughter, and that kid has been thru alot with here mom. Her smile, the love and respect she has for her dad, that will insure that she is going to thrive. They may have stumbling blocks along the way, but their parents will not get TIRED of getting them back up, and dusting them off, and saying hey let's try again.

Bill and Deb, their children, and how much they have sacrificed, even after getting married, b/c they want to do the BEST for their children. More children that are going to thrive.

Yes not all parents But most of the parents here I know do.


They are the LBS. They are the ones that have that care and nurturing and involvement.

We want to be heros to our children, b/c we HATE that this has happend to them.

So instead of sitting at home hurting about it, which will really make it so much harder for our children to get healthy, we are doing whatever it takes to get our children to better than ok.

By talking, by therapy, by church, by prayer by learning from each other. I call these people when I am like OMG what do i do? Never once have any of them have ever said to me, Oh Lis, tell them X is a jerk and they deserve better.

And these are peeps that their X's are JERKS.

No they have told me ok, try this and this. Let them know their dad loves them so much. etc etc.

I feel like after I read this, it gives a message children are going to be marked to be doomed b/c they are children of divorce.

I swear not my kids.

What WILL prove well is good will towards your EX.....not just in words....and if you can do that....maybe you can work it out with your spouse.

I will be friendly, and cordial, and bite my tongue so much. I will go out of my way, and take it all. I will put my children's needs first. I will be there for them every step of the way, but just because I am being nice to the X does not mean things are going to work out. Sometimes we even talk like best friends. Still not going to work out.

Divorce is NOT the death of your life.

I have seen to many here thrive for me to know this.

I have seen spoken to and have relied on the help of my church and peers to know that divorce does not have to be the death of your life, therefore it will not be the death of my children's life, or mine for that matter. I will see to it.

If anythying this divorce is going to make them so much stronger, wiser and committed b/c of the pain they go through. They will even have a clearer picture of what is right and what is wrong. I told my X to his face, the cycle stops with my son, and i mean it. With the help of God and he will not abandon us. This divorce will NOT be the be all to end all of them.

I get very emotional when it comes to the well being of my chidren, I am very biased about how they are brilliant and strong, and have taught ME so much thru out all of this.

I also know the pain. I know it very well, I have their journals all of them. But through those journals I can also see how far they have come, inch by inch. They will continue to go far.


I am also very aware about the times in the very beginning when they cried themsleves to sleep b/c papi was not home.

I HELD them and ROCKED them and I did not sleep, just as so many here have been awake many nights talking and holding and praying.

Those children, being held, and rocked and prayed for, those children, are going to also thrive.

Their parents will see to it.


It is bad enough that the peeople on this board are scared and hurt and feel just so horrible b/c their spouses have left them. Their spouses are acting crazy, mean, or just have vanished.

That is hard enough, but if people on this board are going to be divorced, some day, they have to know that they will make it if they choose to. We have to turn their fear and worry into tools for survival.

Many people on this forum do not have a choice!

The divorce has been pushed down their throats! If that is the case, then how can we give such little hope for their future and the future of their kids?

[sgctxok]

Everyone has a bias...which comes from our experience.

The bias for this board is pro marriage....and yet many of us live with the heartache of divorce.


Lissie, I don't mean to remove hope, and don't think I've done that, and I understand how anyone that is divorced or about to divorce might feel personally attacked...when I haven't done that. I'm divorced as most of you know, and certainly don't want to attack myself.


My position is from what I've seen, and heard Michele talk about.

What I've seen comes from my own life, lives of my friends, lives of the men I've dated right after my divorce, lives of my children's friends and lives of folks here.....after 7+ years on this board.

My point was to counteract what seems to be an .... well, the kids will be fine.

You are right....many people don't have a choice. Many people do.


I can tell you my oldest daughter has a hole in her heart that won't go away. Lots of depression from missing having a dad. Some of it from missing her dad......even though I would tell you he's a jerk. Doesn't matter.

I have been there for her, committed to her all her life. I have time with her, gotten her counseling, the whole 9 yards. I can tell you it wouldn't have been good with her dad around. And I felt that divorce was necessary, and may have even happened if I would have DBd it. Maybe not, who knows.

My point is for folks who want to act like it doesn't matter, you need to do what's good for the parents first and the kids will be ok. It doesn't really work like that.


But you are right..... all that isn't helpful.


What IS helpful.....solutions.




So Lissie, Bill, and anyone else:


What do you find is helping you get your children through the divorce?


Do you have another person involved with you or with your ex.....

What's working, what's not working with that?

[Reincarnated]

I can't think of a topic that is more emotionally charged than this one.

Most of us on these boards are the LBS. We were the fighters, looking to every resource to try to work things out. I believe that all of us here will do the very same thing when it comes to helping our children through this.

Co-parenting is the goal, but not everyone can jump right into that kind of R with their stbx or x. I am one of those people. Email-only contact is the only way that I can stay healthy right now, and I need to be able to care for my kids. I will work towards co-parenting in the future, but I'm not ready for that.

So, without that, what have I done for the kids?

They each have their own IC, who both x and I have met with and agreed on. They have continued to have a loving relationship with all of their extended family on both sides. They have had numerous other adults in their lives tell them that they can talk with them whenever things are feeling too hard, and mom & dad are just too close to talk to. I found a divorce support group run by age group with social workers, which meets 2x/month. There is an open-phone policy for the kids, and they can call either of us whenever they want. I kept in the back of my mind how kids can sometimes express their feelings of hurt, anger, etc., in indirect ways, so I started reassuring them of my love and dedication to them anytime they needed redirection or discipline. NEVER talk badly about the x; the old, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." Don't use the kids as messengers--email, text, call yourself. Keep things between estranged spouse and you business-like. Don't hide all emotions from the kids--its ok for them to see you cry, and they are watching to see how this should be handled--model your coping skills. Help them GAL, too. Cut them some slack early on in the sitch--if you have a hard time concentrating at work, can you imagine having this upheavel in your life while you are trying to learn algebra?! You may have to help more with their organization, maybe tutoring for hard classes. TALK WITH their teachers and guidance counselors. These people are with your kids more time than with you in most cases. What insights can they give you, what resources can they point out to you?

With all that said, I still think my kids are only getting second-best. The best outcome in any sitch would be for both adults to buckle down and do the work required to save the M. M is the best place to raise kids; its not fair to the kids for either adult to put selfish needs above theirs, and that is really what happens here. But as frustrating as it is, some divorces cannot be stopped. So we take that second-best start and work twice as hard to bring it back up to even the playing field.

I still worry about the standards that this sets, the example that my kids will see from my WAS. But they will also have mine, and I will do everything I can to show them that there is another way, another path available to them, if they ever find themselves in a R that could be better.

[No_hill_for_a_Swimmer]

Sg
I have to agree with you on this one most of the time. Children of divorce face headwinds of negativity which is like going through life with an anchor while participating in the long race.

A famous exception is President Clinton who had to stand up to his parent to stop abuse brought on by drinking. I believe right or wrong those deamons chased him to the White House. His and his mother's choice was which deamon was the lessor of two evils. Those incidents I believe manifested themselves in actions that honestly influenced people and events far removed from the original incident.

[swashy]

Well SG - I certainly agree that D is not the ideal. Obviously. And I think everyone here would agree with that. That is why we all came here. To save our marriages. We believe in M and I think just about everyone here was willing to fight for their M.

That said, to suggest that children from D can't thrive....well that's simply short sighted. They can. Is it easy? No. Are there more stumbling blocks? Of course. But with kindness, patience and love it can be accomplished. And certainly simply coming fron an intact family is no guarantee that a child will thrive either.

I can tell you with no hesitation that I am a waaaaay better parent for having gone through this. And you know what...my STBX is even being a better parent as well. Do I wish we could have been better parents together...yes. But that is out of my control. We have joint custody. 3 days with me, 4 with her and then 4 with me 3 with her. We live 3 miles from each other and have kept them in the same school.

My kids hurt over it. They cry about it. I comfort them and do my best. But I also see them smiling more than ever, laughing more than ever, hugging me more, telling me they love me more...they ARE happy. And I'm not just talking about the last two years...than EVER.

I guess i just don't think it's as simple as a this or that. Better D'd or together. There are too many factors at play. Yes they may be happier with us together. But what does together really mean? What does that change for them?

And SG...you talk about the hole in your Ds heart. You seem to feel as though it is becuase of the D. But could it be because her dad has chosen not to play a role in her life? Because he is failing as a father. Just because you are Dd doesn't mean he couldn't have chosen to have done that. How would it be different for her if he had?

[sgctxok]

With all that said, I still think my kids are only getting second-best. The best outcome in any sitch would be for both adults to buckle down and do the work required to save the M. M is the best place to raise kids; its not fair to the kids for either adult to put selfish needs above theirs, and that is really what happens here. But as frustrating as it is, some divorces cannot be stopped. So we take that second-best start and work twice as hard to bring it back up to even the playing field.



Donna, I hear you. This is my struggle too.

It wrenches my heart. My ex was a bit abusive. He's not a nice guy. My oldest lived with him a year, but mostly he checked out (sends cards and stuff, fought for custody, blah blah blah)
So it's a struggle.


Maybe you and others sharing things that work.....will help folks....maybe I'll even pick up some tips.




There are things I wish I hadn't done:

I wish I hadn't dated so soon after my divorce. I would do that differently.

I would not have let them meet anyone I dated unless I was serious with them. (I wasn't remotely a tramp....but I did bring who I was dating around them. )

I was just sooooooooooo tired a lot. And striving to keep financially afloat. I wouldn't have put THAT much energy into it again (I went back to school FT and had to work part time jobs to keep it together.) I would have relaxed with THEM more.



So....on a more positive note.... What are YOU doing? How are you trying to make things great for your kids?

[sgctxok]

And SG...you talk about the hole in your Ds heart. You seem to feel as though it is becuase of the D. But could it be because her dad has chosen not to play a role in her life? Because he is failing as a father. Just because you are Dd doesn't mean he couldn't have chosen to have done that. How would it be different for her if he had?


Thats a very good question. And I don't have an answer. From what I see it SEEMS (and that isn't everything) that usually one of the parents check out, and spend a lot of reduced time with their kids or one or more of the kids.

With my partner, he and his exW seem to coparent very well. SHe coached him though...she's an awesome mom. They are excellent with the child that has developmental issues. The older son seems to have a 'hole' in his heart.



I can tell you with no hesitation that I am a waaaaay better parent for having gone through this. And you know what...my STBX is even being a better parent as well. Do I wish we could have been better parents together...yes. But that is out of my control. We have joint custody. 3 days with me, 4 with her and then 4 with me 3 with her. We live 3 miles from each other and have kept them in the same school.

My kids hurt over it. They cry about it. I comfort them and do my best. But I also see them smiling more than ever, laughing more than ever, hugging me more, telling me they love me more...they ARE happy. And I'm not just talking about the last two years...than EVER.



And you DO raise another good point. While many folks (dads is what I've seen) seem to check out............many DO become more active parents after the divorce. My guy was very involved with the child that was sports minded, and not as involved with the others.

He has become a better dad to both.


Great points.









All-

great discussion.