Really upside down #2

[Bworl]

Would it be bad to say something like ...

Sorry UD, but yeah, it would be bad.

And it's not that you're wrong to feel that way. Not at all.

But what kind of response do you honestly think you are likely to get to such a statement to her? I guess I've just read enough stories on this board to know that, at this point in time, the answer you are likely to get will not be very pleasing to you.

Detachment is not a switch and I don't really think there are steps like 1-2-3.

Have you read people using the phrase "drop the rope?" It's sometimes used to provide an analogy to the mindset that you are trying to reach in detachment.

I used an analogy once regarding walking your beloved dog, who happens to be on an extremely long leash.

Your pet is thoroughly enjoying the walk and takes off to explore anything and everything, but in the process gets so far away that neither of you can see each other anymore.

During his wandering, he has managed to wrap that leash around all manner of trees and poles and other things.

You realize that you can't see your pet anymore and you want to help him make it back to you. But when you begin to pull on this very long leash, all that happens is that it gets stuck on all those things and actually makes it impossible for your pet to get back to you.

So what do you do?

You let go of the leash.

Because now that you're both not pulling on it in different directions, your pet can eventually make his way back home.


You and your wife are pulling in opposite directions.

She wants away and space.

You want her back with you.

Who wins? ...neither of you.

Until one of you stops pulling.


I hate the old cliche "If you love someone, let them go...", yada, yada, yada. But there is certainly some truth in that crappy cliche.


Do you think parents whose kids become drug addicts don't wish they could FORCE them to stop doing drugs?

Do you think the spouse of an alcoholic doesn't wish he/she could stop their spouse from drinking?


You cannot MAKE her change her mind.

There are no words, no actions that in and of themselves serve as the magic wand that will bring her back.


She has to DECIDE that she WANTS to come back. She has to DECIDE that she would rather be with YOU than any other person.


So your job is pretty straightforward.

Become her best choice.

And take every opportunity to let her SEE that you are the best choice.


I may think I'm the best candidate for a managerial position in a Fortune 500 company, but trust me, they are NOT going to hire me based on my words. They want to SEE what I've done and what I know.


So it is with your wife.


You must reach the point where you ACCEPT that the decision to return is hers.

You must reach the point where you ACCEPT that you cannot make her realize the error of her ways. She KNOWS she is right.

You must begin the process of focusing your efforts on becoming once again the man that she cannot live without.


Blessings,

Bill

[upside_downer]

I see what you are saying, Bill. I guess it's just that what I'm trying to accomplish is to detach, etc. We are in this cycle, though, where she calls me and wants to do things. Everyone thinks that is great, but every time it catapults me into feeling bad.

When she says things like "I still can't tell you things" that's when I feel like this and want to tell her she needs to do something to change because I don't want to go off and do something like date or give up when that isn't what she wants from me, but can't show it. I am trying to protect my head from the constant barrage of her hitting me with things like "I can't talk to you, I was never physically attracted to you" things that just rip me apart.

Why does she feel the need to say those hurtful things, but not realize that the exact thing she wants from me (action changes, not word changes) are what she needs to do as well to get it from me?

I've heard the analogy of drop the rope. The way I interpret it, or at least the way I'm tempted to get on with it is to lose all contact because I'm struggling. But that is bad, right?

I thought about what I wanted to say and it does sound bad, but I feel that somehow she has to know that she can't treat me like crap like this and expect I'm gonna take it.

I thought about a hybrid of the next time she asks me to do something, I say I'm not really interested because she's not able to talk to me.

That leads me down the same path I think. Arrrrrrrrrghhh!!!

[Continuing]

Hey UD,
Just got caught up on your sitch. And the rollercoaster continues, does it not?

As for you, you are still too attached to her and what she does. Detachment is a process and takes time, but you also have to focus your efforts on it. You cannot continue to allow her actions to be the basis for your emotional state.

This, right here, in this unassuming little paragraph, is the key to everything, IMO. I am working very hard at it. Some days are I'm pretty good, some I'm not. I find myself drifting back into the mind set of what I need to do to make this stuff work. "what if shes not calling me, what if I don't see her for a long time, how is she doing to notice the changes?" Then I snap out of it for a time. Those are the wrong questions, they don't matter. The only way for me to completely detach is for me to be seperate. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her right now, I want to get to a point where I don't feel like that. I'm not sure how to do it and whats more, is no one can tell me. I (we) have to figure it out for ourselves.

"I'm making efforts to change what got us here so we can have what we need going forward. This includes doing things that are hard because I can get hurt. I don't feel you are meeting me halfway, though, because you still can't tell me things."

So, I'm new here and barely know what I'm doing, so I would get more opinions on this than just mine but I think: Do NOT say this!! You...have...NO...control over her. I have to say this to myself all the time. What would be the point in saying this. Who's benefit is it for? Don't talk; do. And you have no right to demand anything from her at this point (and really never did). You are both seperate people, you are not merged.

But that being said I know how you feel. I'm there with you and I have asked my wife questions to that really didn't matter and they were more for me than her.

As for the question you asked me: not uptight but intellectual. My wife always said I was so intellectual without emotions. Well, that has changed real quick.

I'm reading along.

B

[Continuing]

I hadn't sen your most recent posts when I post my response, oops.

My wife said similar things to me to (never attracted, never really loved me like I loved her). But what is it that they say here, don't believe hardly anything they say and only 50% of what they do. People can do some pretty impressive mental gymnastics to keep themselves from feeling the total experience of what they are doing. I think saying this like this is a way of justifing their actions and maybe deep down, to hurt us like we hurt them. These things that they say may have some truth to them but it was NOT the whole story. Its just convenient for it to be the whole story right now.

I've heard the analogy of drop the rope. The way I interpret it, or at least the way I'm tempted to get on with it is to lose all contact because I'm struggling. But that is bad, right?

Eh....I struggle with this too. Objectively, no its not bad, as in you are breaking a rule. You do what you need to do. If having no cantact for a while allows you to detach then do it. Its for you! But i know, subjectively, that then your minds goes to "but what message does it send her"? But then I think that our actions are, once again, being governed by our wives and we are not totally separate...again. Just what I'm thinking right now anyway, I might change my mind, HA.

[Bworl]

First off...

she says things like "I still can't tell you things"

Why does she say this? Is there something in the way that you respond to what she says that makes her think she cannot talk to you? Because, you see, if you are dragging this ball and chain of needing your relationship back right now with you into your conversations, maybe that's making you RESPOND to what she says, instead of just LISTENING.

To be honest, anytime she says "those things" that hurt you, you should be saying something like "I'm understand that you feel as though you were never attracted to me. I don't believe that's true, but I really don't want to talk about these things right now. Let's change the subject."

See, I think the problem is that you DO want to talk about those things. But you don't like the answers she gives you because they hurt and you don't agree with them.

Basically you're beating your head against the wall.

You're trying to have an honest conversation about your relationship with a woman who has emotionally checked out of the relationship and already firmly convinced herself that her decision was right.

You don't WIN that conversation.

You get your ass handed to you and go away with your tail between your legs.

You still don't get this. You insist on putting the CART before the HORSE.


Your wife has decided that you are not what she thought she was getting.

Maybe parts of that are right, but we know that for the most part this is wrong thinking on her part. We also know that whatevver problems the two of you were having, they were more than fixable if both of you had committed to fixing them.

Doesn't matter.

And she doesn't want to hear that.

You have to SHOW her a new man. And you have to do it over time and you have to be terribly consistent about it.

Not for days. Not for weeks. At least a few months of solid, consistent behavior that shows you to be BEYOND the drama between the two of you.


That's why we keep telling you the same thing over and over again. Quit trying to get her to address the issues. You can't MAKE her do that. In her mind the issues are settled!


Go back and read the books. Find anywhere in there where it says if you just find the right words and the right atmosphere, you will make your spouse UNDERSTAND.

You won't find it.


And this...

I thought about a hybrid of the next time she asks me to do something, I say I'm not really interested because she's not able to talk to me.

Petty, vindictive, controlling, and extremely "little boy" like.

If you had even just stopped at the word "interested" we would have had something to work with.

It's ok to turn down an invitation. It shows that your life does NOT revolve around her and hearing from her.

There's no real need for you to go dark.

Go dark is NOT, I repeat NOT detaching.

Detaching says that I have finally realized that this is HER deal, not mine. I didn't fully cause it, it's not even particularly rational given the issues that were involved. These things she says are NOT true, but justifications she has created for her decision.

Detaching says I realize all that now. Therefore, her words can no longer hurt me, because I see them for what they are. Her actions can no longer hurt me, because I realize they are further manifestations of her faulty thinking about how she will find happiness.

Detaching says now that I am free of being in bondage to HER words and actions, I am free to JUST BE ME. In everything. In all interactions with her.

Assuming of course you've cleaned up YOUR act regarding the things in the marriage that needed worked on.


Look, you continue on this path, you will create the very future that you DO NOT want, and even accelerate the process.


What have you SHOWN, not SAID, what have you SHOWN your wife that she should find different and suddenly attractive about you.


Because make no mistakes.

DB'ing is like Missouri. It's a "SHOW ME" deal all the way.


Blessings,

Bill

[upside_downer]

Hey UD,
Just got caught up on your sitch. And the rollercoaster continues, does it not?

As for you, you are still too attached to her and what she does. Detachment is a process and takes time, but you also have to focus your efforts on it. You cannot continue to allow her actions to be the basis for your emotional state.

This, right here, in this unassuming little paragraph, is the key to everything, IMO. I am working very hard at it. Some days are I'm pretty good, some I'm not. I find myself drifting back into the mind set of what I need to do to make this stuff work. "what if shes not calling me, what if I don't see her for a long time, how is she doing to notice the changes?" Then I snap out of it for a time. Those are the wrong questions, they don't matter. The only way for me to completely detach is for me to be seperate. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her right now, I want to get to a point where I don't feel like that. I'm not sure how to do it and whats more, is no one can tell me. I (we) have to figure it out for ourselves.

"I'm making efforts to change what got us here so we can have what we need going forward. This includes doing things that are hard because I can get hurt. I don't feel you are meeting me halfway, though, because you still can't tell me things."

So, I'm new here and barely know what I'm doing, so I would get more opinions on this than just mine but I think: Do NOT say this!! You...have...NO...control over her. I have to say this to myself all the time. What would be the point in saying this. Who's benefit is it for? Don't talk; do. And you have no right to demand anything from her at this point (and really never did). You are both seperate people, you are not merged.

But that being said I know how you feel. I'm there with you and I have asked my wife questions to that really didn't matter and they were more for me than her.

As for the question you asked me: not uptight but intellectual. My wife always said I was so intellectual without emotions. Well, that has changed real quick.

I'm reading along.

B

Thanks for visiting, B. I'll be popping in your thread as well. We need all the support we can get.

[upside_downer]

[quote=Bworl]First off...

she says things like "I still can't tell you things"

Why does she say this? Is there something in the way that you respond to what she says that makes her think she cannot talk to you? Because, you see, if you are dragging this ball and chain of needing your relationship back right now with you into your conversations, maybe that's making you RESPOND to what she says, instead of just LISTENING.[\quote]

She says that because she has always been the kind of person who does not open up to hardly anyone. She has 2 people in her life that she can really open up to and they are her cousin and cousin's H. Not even her mom, or sister. I had the opportunity back when we were still getting to know each other because she started to open up to me, but that door quickly slammed shut because I was unaware that her need of support involved me just hearing what she had to say. I took all the stories, explaining, etc. and dug, trying to understand and identify with it. That was my way of showing support. She took that as me being selfish. She never felt supported. THAT's why she says she can't tell me things. Now she expects that somehow, I'm going to start listening while she acts the way she is. The angry part of me wants her to continue to feel that pain, but hashing this all out, I finally see that I just need to staple my mouth shut and stop talking about ME.

See, I think the problem is that you DO want to talk about those things. But you don't like the answers she gives you because they hurt and you don't agree with them.

Basically you're beating your head against the wall.

I hate to admit, but part of me does because I'm waiting for her to have a shred of honesty with me and tell me what is going on in her life instead of expecting me to be OK with it as an occasional visitor. I'm struggling with conceding to that.

You're trying to have an honest conversation about your relationship with a woman who has emotionally checked out of the relationship and already firmly convinced herself that her decision was right.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Petty, vindictive, controlling, and extremely "little boy" like.

Yes

[upside_downer]

Struggling today. I want to intiate and ask how my W liked the Batman movie, but I shouldn't initiate!!!!

Must....be.....goood......

[Bworl]

Why can't you intiate a conversation about a movie????????

We're not playing a game here. This is real life.

I saw the movie. It was amazing, Heath Ledger was amazing...I wanted to talk to other people about it.

Gosh, sometimes we make things so damned hard on ourselves with ridiculous thinking.


UD, you cannot talk RELATIONSHIP with her. You cannot share your NEEDS or FEARS with her. You can't talk about that stuff unless she brings it up, and even then YOU HAVE TO BEHAVE.


For crying out loud, conversations about things like movies could very well be the kinds of things that open the door back up to her.


Where did you EVER get this notion?


Sigh....



Bill

[poet]

Can't share our "needs" and "fears?" OH MY, what track have I been on.

thanks,