Trixi trying to find moorage

[Trixi]

Hey- my thread locked! My most recent thread

So.
I went over to my old house-- H actually has done A LOT to the outside to make it look nice. The tree he took from where I live looks amazing. He has big plans for other parts of the yard. It made me VERY sad to be there. This will sound immature, but I was sad and jealous. He gets to know where HE is living; he gets frogs, salamanders, snakes, bats, a plethora of birds, squirrels all sorts of trees; I, on the other hand, am watching my landlord cut down all the trees to put duplex lots right behind where I live. I have a few birds, (juncos and chickadees, robins) but NOTHING like my old house. I don't know where I will be living in 7 months. ::stomp::stomp::pout::


He played me a couple songs he wrote last night. He was pretty excited about them; they're pretty good.

I did start crying at one point because being there made me sad. He asked why I was crying and luckily didn't press. (I was way too emotional to talk. We did talk about it later, though- see below.)

The wedding collage my mom made is still in the den, so that was good to see.

We talked some R on the way to hiking; he said that maybe he never got to do what he needed to do before coming back to me and that is why he is thinking we should see each other less. [side note, I think that this has A LOT to do with the band--he is basically spending as much time as he can writing, jamming and recording and I think he might be wanting to see how far he can go].He said he isn't seeing anyone else, doesn't want to see anyone else so it's "nothing like that." He said that 'now is MY time, not your time, not my son's time, not my parents or my sisters time, but MY time." (that sounded a little MLCish to me.) He feels sad too about us not being together, but isn't ready to do anything different. Mentioned communication/wanting us to talk more- so I went ahead and pitched retro. He said he might consider it.

Go hike; great place. We made it halfway up but had to go back because he is jamming tonight.
Here's the positives:
*He talked about our Steely Dan weekend and renting a Harley and going somewhere. (ie, long range plan)
*He wants us to go camping in September. (We spotted an awesome campsite.) He wants me to make reservations. (ie, long range plan)
*He asked if I was still thinking of a tummy tuck; asked how long he would need to care for me and then said "it doesn't really matter, I'd be there as long as you needed me"
*talked about finishing the hike another weekend and then talked about doing a different hike in between, but that we *definitely* had to come back to this one and finish it

Negative-- in talking about hiking/camping/reservations in September I said "well, remember there is a weekend in there for retro that I want you to consider" and he was like "uh. yeah." I scoffed and he said "yeah, I guess I'm not really feeling 'into it' today; I might later." I said "if you wanted to play golf better, you wouldn't keep doing what you're doing- you'd hire a coach" and he said "hmmm..good analogy."
Oh, and I was careful to say that good communication is important no matter which way we go.

All in all, we had a very good time.

He's coming over early on wednesday to finish our spanish homework before the lesson; celebrating his bday at his mom's Thursday and then w/me Friday. And I am going to a murder mystery party on Saturday night

I sure hope he will seriously consider retro... It was really so sad to be at my old house.

[Sara]

Good work. You did it. You asked, and he didn't say no. So that puts you in the top 5%. There is hope. I would not push it at this time, it is still pretty far off. You should look up the group on facebook. Just search for people with unique names like Smartcookie, or Kalni Sunshine.

[Dom R]

We talked some R on the way to hiking; he said that maybe he never got to do what he needed to do before coming back to me and that is why he is thinking we should see each other less.

So.. he's saying that if he can somehow "get it out of his system", then it will be ok.

That implies that any time in the FUTURE he has some kind of various urges, it is ok for him to "go away" for a while, "get it out of his system", and then come back.

Are you willing to have a marriage based on that premise?

If not, sounds like you should tell him that. In very very direct and blunt terms.

[Sara]

Trixi,

There is always a danger in reading more meaning into things people say. If you are unclear about what your H means by his statement, I suggest you ask him to explain it. It would be unwise to interpret and look for implications, and then to make direct and blunt statements based on your interpretation. That is why we have language, so that people can express themselves and say what they mean.

[Trixi]

Sara- yeah, I understand what you mean...

Too bad I don't think HE knows what he means. He has told me over and over and over and over that he *wishes* he knew what it was he was wanting so that he could tell me and we could address it. As far as him not getting to do what he "needed to do"--I think he means growth. No, I don't know that for sure...I am extrapolating from other conversations. He's all over the map right now.

That implies that any time in the FUTURE he has some kind of various urges, it is ok for him to "go away" for a while, "get it out of his system", and then come back.

To a degree, I think he is trying to venture down a path he didn't get to take when he was 'responsible' for being the primary breadwinner of the family. He didn't "have as much confidence, but has a lot more now" and he feels like "the universe is lining up things re his music". Actually, he has told me that he felt like he missed out on things because of furthering his career, raising his son, etc-specifically he missed out on pursuing music. He was doing what he was "supposed to do".

If we were to fully reconcile, I would make it very clear that flitting in and out the door to 'get things out of his system' will not be acceptable to me.

He has said many times that he can't go thru this again, so if we get back together, that's it.

Yesterday he warned that he "can't promise if you moved back in, everything would be perfect". I said that I understood that, and in fact, piecing is probably a lot harder than either one of us fully understands; but that's where good communication comes in handy.


Oh yeah, yesterday he also said that he probably looks like he is being selfish- and he guesses he is. And that he hates that he hurts me because when I am sad it makes him sad..sometimes he thinks if it's going to 'be like that' he doesn't want to have to deal with it.

Pretty much all the men I know think I'm a fool.

This whole thing is so odd. There's no OW. (Except music.) There's other DBers (like Butterflymom) who slept with their WAS *while* the WAS had an OW. And they eventually reconciled. So, is it really that terrible that I am giving my H space while letting him still see me? Am I really that big of a sucker and is he that big of a cake eater? Or do we have something special and it's off track right now?

Can anyone think of any other DBers who have/had a similar situation as me?

[Sara]

No, there is nothing terrible about what you are doing. You are being considerate of your mate. Isn't that what marriage is about? The yardstick to judge that by is not what others think, but by how it feels to you. If it hurts you to give to him without getting back what you are hoping for, then it is not a fair deal. If you can get what you want out of the relationship while also giving him what he wants, then that is a fair relationship for both of you.

Have you read Husband's thread since he returned from his Retrouvaille weekend? He and his wife had lived in almost silence for the past year, and he was asking all of us what she thought that whole time. Now he knows what she thinks and feels and they are both happy to set aside 20 minutes a day to talk about their feelings. His marriage has direction again, and the past is really past. I think Retrouvaille could be just as good for you. It is not just a place to reconcile with your spouse. That is a side effect. It is a place to meditate about your hopes and dreams for your own life and to discuss that with your spouse. If you find that you can still grow together, then reconciliation happens. It could help your husband clarify his thinking about his life and help you see if there is a role for a woman in that future scenario.

[NikB]

Ahh Trixi... a direct quote from my H on bomb #1 day:

"I always did was I was supposed to do not what I wanted to do. What I was supposed to do."

Sounds familiar, huh?

Yesterday he warned that he "can't promise if you moved back in, everything would be perfect".

Well I'm sure glad he realizes that!! It will NEVER be perfect - it's life, it's not gonna happen. Glad he knows that.

This whole thing is so odd. There's no OW. (Except music.)

That you know of.. I hope you're right though.

So, is it really that terrible that I am giving my H space while letting him still see me? Am I really that big of a sucker and is he that big of a cake eater? Or do we have something special and it's off track right now?

Can anyone think of any other DBers who have/had a similar situation as me?

Mine's been pretty close, I think. At the beginning there was his "friend" - definitely an EA. He still to this day swears it was never an actual relationship beyond a friend although I think that's BS. But anyway, my H's main "issue" wasn't an OW, it was more just "not happy being married, didn't do it because I WANTED to get married but it just seemed like the next step, didn't know what I wanted," etc. So my H is more like yours in that he wanted out either way - oW or not. And yet spent a lot of time with me, kept in pretty close contact, etc.

I think it's like Sara said - it has more to do with YOU and how you feel, than how you're handling things. My biggest concern is that you spend way too much time putting your days/weeks/weekends on hold for him, waiting around to see if he's going to entertain you or not. Seeing him is one thing - letting your life revolve around him when he's so "waffly" is another and that's where I worry for you.

*He wants us to go camping in September. (We spotted an awesome campsite.) He wants me to make reservations. (ie, long range plan)

Why is it always your job to do all the "work" for these plans??

It's great that he's wanting to make long term plans with you - I'm glad to hear it! I don't know exactly how the convo went but based on what I know and on my sitch, I almost feel like you jump so eagerly at any plan he suggests that it might be TOO much. As in it might be sending (or more like reaffirming) that message that you're right there waiting and available anytime he even hints at wanting to do something together. Not only that, you'll even make all the plans!

Make him work for you sometimes. Know what I mean?? He should be "woo'ing" you.

Negative-- in talking about hiking/camping/reservations in September I said "well, remember there is a weekend in there for retro that I want you to consider" and he was like "uh. yeah."

Alright.. you asked.. you indirectly asked again... and you reminded him. Now leave him alone about the Retro!! And meanwhile we'll all keep our fingers and toes crossed for you.

Besides - you're planning the camping trip - you can easily make it NOT on the Retro weekend.

And I am going to a murder mystery party on Saturday night.

Thanks for the big ol' smile!!

[Trixi]

Have you read Husband's thread since he returned from his Retrouvaille weekend? He and his wife had lived in almost silence for the past year, and he was asking all of us what she thought that whole time. Now he knows what she thinks and feels and they are both happy to set aside 20 minutes a day to talk about their feelings. His marriage has direction again, and the past is really past. I think Retrouvaille could be just as good for you. It is not just a place to reconcile with your spouse. That is a side effect. It is a place to meditate about your hopes and dreams for your own life and to discuss that with your spouse. If you find that you can still grow together, then reconciliation happens. It could help your husband clarify his thinking about his life and help you see if there is a role for a woman in that future scenario.

Yes, I have been reading his thread with great interest. The 20 minutes a day thing has me concerned. *sigh* I had told him that it wasn't like MarriageBuilders with a bunch of rules and time requirements. Plus, not living together makes it pretty hard to do something "per day". Shoot, we go several days at a time without talking. bugger.

it has more to do with YOU and how you feel, than how you're handling things. My biggest concern is that you spend way too much time putting your days/weeks/weekends on hold for him, waiting around to see if he's going to entertain you or not. Seeing him is one thing - letting your life revolve around him when he's so "waffly" is another and that's where I worry for you.

Hmm..well, I feel like I am getting tired of "waiting", but will wait awhile longer because I don't want to look back and think I quit too soon.
With regard to waiting for him to entertain me- I think I should clarify something. As an introvert, too much "going out" burns me out- fast. I like to do things with people, etc, but my need for that is actually pretty low compared to most of the world.

(Holidays excluded)-I guess I don't feel like I have "missed out" on a bunch of stuff because of the fluidity of the plans with H. ..I suppose to extroverts, it would look like I am sacrificing because I can't accurately book up my whole weekend with doing things. Thing is- I don't WANT to have gobs of stuff to go do. I'll leave it at that because I'm not explaining it well and I know that it won't make sense to about 75% of the population.

It's great that he's wanting to make long term plans with you - I'm glad to hear it! I don't know exactly how the convo went but based on what I know and on my sitch, I almost feel like you jump so eagerly at any plan he suggests that it might be TOO much. As in it might be sending (or more like reaffirming) that message that you're right there waiting and available anytime he even hints at wanting to do something together. Not only that, you'll even make all the plans!

This is how it went down; we accidentally drove into a campground and he said "wow, I wish we were here. I could be playing guitar, there could be a fire; we could play cards...we should come back here and camp in sometime in September."

During hike he brings up coming back, hiking there again, camping-maybe bringing the 4x4 jeep. He discusses how HE will take care of renting a Harley for the Steely Dan weekend this coming week. (Side note, he rented it today for 3 days aug 1st-3rd.)

We forgot to pick up a Recreation Pass before the hike; we stopped by the ranger station to buy one after the hike and they were closed. Ranger station is across street from campground. H says "Ok, how about you be in charge of picking us up the Recreation Pass? Oh- and there's that campground- write that down and see if you can get us reservations for September."

He is busier than me so I don't mind handling these things...

Gosh, Nik, I hope you don't write me off. Really, I SO appreciate your advice, I don't want you to think I don't! I just want to flesh out the story so you can see that it wasn't a sitch where he absently mindedly said "hmmm...camping..." and I jumped up and said "Oh camping? great- let's go to this campsite- and don't worry- I'll make the reservations- I'll take care of it all". It was more collaborative than that.

And you better believe I will not be making the reservations for the same weekend as retro. I wish I didn't know about the 20 minutes per day thing...ugh. That's gonna probably put a damper on his willingness.

[Sara]

So don't tell him about it. Just go, and let everything else happen. You'll cross that bridge when you come to it.

[NikB]

(((Trixi))))

OK this is out of order but first things first -

Gosh, Nik, I hope you don't write me off. Really, I SO appreciate your advice, I don't want you to think I don't!

Not for a second!! And you can't get rid of me that easy. (just ask my H )

I really do care about you and want to see you happy. I hope the advice helps but I completely understand that you have to take what works, and leave behind what doesn't! And it's sometimes hard to read "reality" from just a few words or paragraphs, so I know I may be reading things in that just aren't there.

Hmm..well, I feel like I am getting tired of "waiting", but will wait awhile longer because I don't want to look back and think I quit too soon.
With regard to waiting for him to entertain me- I think I should clarify something. As an introvert, too much "going out" burns me out- fast. I like to do things with people, etc, but my need for that is actually pretty low compared to most of the world.

This makes sense to me. I'm actually pretty introverted too believe it or not. I get a lot of my "extrovert" fix at work and posting to people (here, email, etc.).

Thing is- I don't WANT to have gobs of stuff to go do. I'll leave it at that because I'm not explaining it well and I know that it won't make sense to about 75% of the population.

You are to me, actually - I understand what you mean.

I guess where I worry is that it seems, from your posts here, like you're "waiting" for H to plan your weekend time. If you're totally happy having an open-ended weekend, that's cool! I LOVE unscheduled time, too. I just get this feeling that sometimes you really DO want to go out and do something, and you wait hoping your H will plan something rather than planning something on your own. Does that make sense?

And realize please... I could be totally projecting because of myself and my sitch. If I'm way off base definitely tell me.

I just want to flesh out the story so you can see that it wasn't a sitch where he absently mindedly said "hmmm...camping..." and I jumped up and said "Oh camping? great- let's go to this campsite- and don't worry- I'll make the reservations- I'll take care of it all". It was more collaborative than that.

Great!!! I'm glad to hear this. Thanks for the additional details, as yes it does help. I'm glad it was more of a collaborative thing. And given that, even more excited that you have plans so far out in the future. And I like how he was really visualizing it in his head, too - envisioning a future with you? Definitely a good thing.

I've been looking around for a sitch closer to yours where there truly isn't an OW. It's odd how few of those you see. You can find WAW threads from women who want "out" but don't have an OM, but I haven't found any yet from Hs. I don't mean this to be discouraging at all - I just mean it's surprising how hard it is to find a sitch really close to yours. Like I mentioned I think mine is pretty close, but still not quite the same. You may be right that the band is the OW in your case... I have often felt like cars were the "OW" in mine. I'll keep looking though.

On Retro - I agree with Sara - just don't mention the 20 minutes a day. I wouldn't mention anything to him that you haven't learned from the Retro website, honestly. He doesn't need to know details at this point.