Congrats! We keep telling you that you're doing well and are on the right track -- keep at it!
One hint, however: come tell us the *next morning* (rather than 1:43 AM). Naked-cuddling-throughout-the-night is one of the nicest benefits of making love. At least it is for a kinesthetic like myself, and even if you're not one, the women generally LOVE IT.
So snuggle up, spoon, and stay in bed! We'll be here.
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/10/0802:30 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
No, the timing just makes it seem that way. I think I'd like her to read all this, but I don't think she feels ready. She knows I post here and my username, so if she wants to read it, it's here.
Bagheera, I like to cuddle, but she doesn't do that all night. We did get to snuggle for a long time, but eventually she got up, put on the comfortable PJ's and came back to go to sleep. I really don't mind this; I just put an arm around her and go to sleep, too.
Later on, the baby woke up, and I needed the restroom, so I got up and took care of him. And stopped at the computer to admit I was wrong.
Now, last night was pretty special, and I did NOT do the analysis this time. I just went with it. It was wonderful. I was pretty forceful, and she loved it. I will say this for being forceful: she knows I love it when she gives me oral, and I love giving it to her. But we've been way out of balance in that way for years; I would do it for her any time she would let me, including at times when intercourse wasn't going to happen. She would give me oral maybe once a year, and during our worst dry spell, not that often. Looking back, I realize I only got it when I asked for it, and I almost never asked for it. I figured that she knew I wanted it, so if she didn't do it, it must be because it disgusted her or she resented it. Frankly, even when she did it, it wasn't always very good.
Well, last week when we had our little breakthrough, I didn't ask. I told her to do it. She was . . . not in a position to resist. It scared me to death; I was sure she was going to burst into tears and decide she hated me at any moment. But the thing is, she not only complied, she really worked at it. It was obvious that she was enjoying herself. I know I was certainly enjoying herself! She was wild, and she made me feel wild. There was nothing grudging or sad about it. So I did the same thing last night, although this time I just plain told her to do it, nothing so elaborate. Same results. So I guess I'm starting to believe that she really does want to follow my lead, at least in the bedroom. And actually, there was a little glimmer of her own personality coming out near the end, so I didn't feel like I dominated absolutely everything. I'd had my O and she hadn't had hers yet, and I started to do something I knew she would like. She stopped me and told me what she wanted me to do. Man, was that great. She didn't give me the exact details, but that was OK--I filled 'em in and made it work, and all she had to do was relax and enjoy it. It was fantastic. At the end, I cleared off the bed and we lay together in a T with her head on my chest, talking.
Today I made a joke about a spanking tonight, and she giggled, but she told me "I might need a couple of nights off."
I told her I'd talk to her about it again on Monday. I hope that's going to be OK; she seemed satisfied. It doesn't mean I expect sex on Monday, just that I won't be bringing the subject up before then.
We've got to get up at about 2:00 in the morning to get on the road tomorrow anyway, and then we're staying with one of her old friends on Friday night, so that's two busy days when there won't be opportunities anyway.
First: go slowly and gradually into uncharted territory, and keep the sexual frequency down to a slow pace initially. I know you've been chomping at the bit for years...I was too...but moving too fast may cause the entire train to derail.
Second: in dealing with a sexual submissive, DO NOT expect her to be able to spell out what she does and does not want you to do to her, what she will and won't allow, and especially what she fantasize about. She may get very uncomfortable, very fast, and balk at nearly everything you suggest.
I know from the man's perspective, it makes perfect sense to discuss all this openly and directly ahead of time. It would make life a lot easier. But from her perspective, she's dealing with the Nice Girl's Don't syndrome, and perhaps in a big way. If, during sex, you make her do something, if you make her submit to your control, then it's alright, and she can truly enjoy it. But if you ask her to talk about it openly before hand, all the red flags go up in her mind: I shouldn't be thinking about this, I shouldn't be talking about this, and I certainly shouldn't be wanting it to happen to me!
Sometimes, the best you might get are hints -- like that giggle you got at the mention of spanking. She didn't shriek, object, or look aghast. I would personally let it go at that: as something to try when the time seems right.
At other times you might get an indirect answer and a 'look.' Since you brought up fellatio, I'll share an example there. My wife and I both love fellatio, and with the right mood build-up it can be pretty 'rough and raunchy' these days. I'll never understand the female 'rush' that goes along with this, but I don't let her puke and we have a great time.
Back in my 'gentleman in bed' days, however, I was pretty timid about fellatio. I considered it as her gift to me, I never directed, I never touched her head, and I never came in her mouth -- this last goes to an experience where she tried to swallow in the first year of our marriage once, and that once was enough. Over the last several months of our improving relationship, it became apparent that she wanted more from the experience, and wanted me to take more control: nothing was ever said verbally, just body motions and actions. During a 'sex talk' one afternoon, I asked about swallowing, and in response I got this eye-rolling look and all she could say was "I don't know...you'll just have to try it." So I did, and we haven't looked back (although I usually want to save my orgasm for other things on most nights).
The point is, her indirect answer was typical of the sexual sub: an implied --> "YOU take control, use me for your pleasure, and I'll probably love it." Implied, but not spelled out. I know that this detective game will probably frustrate you, but you'll get used to it, and even find it endearing, in a mysterious, feminine sort of way.
Third: Because of the her (probable) tendency to NOT want to talk about these things directly, make sure you set up your safe-word system for your own protection. Make sure she knows that at any time things approach a boundary for her, you'll honor it and stop the action if she uses the word.
Four: Using the marvels of the Internet, be sure to thoroughly research anything new you're thinking about trying, especially for the first time. You're the one in control and directing the action, so go into everything knowledgeably. And if things go awry and don't work (which they will sometimes), both of you need to have a sense of humor and be able to laugh at yourselves, or at the very least, be forgiving of goofs or inadvertent hurts.
Have fun and play.
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/11/0812:25 AM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It's been a great weekend so far. Exhausting, but great. The big political event went off without a hitch. We haven't stopped running yet, but at least we're home now.
Did I mention exhausted?
I'm reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I do see myself in there.
I'll have more to say later. Right now I have some stuff to get done.
Thanks, Baggy. I had some computer issues that kept me away earlier in the week. I thought two of the points were interesting, but not too controversial for me. The part about abuse in childhood being recreated so the victim can enjoy it in a controlled way . . . . I would not have thought of that in a million years, and I would have done just what you did, and run into the same wall.
It was the first one that pulled me up short.
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
(1) Nice Girls Don't (desire or enjoy sex)
This was posted as one of three things to keep in mind about sexually submissive women, that often their desire to be dominated is a way to avoid any responsibility for desiring sex, since their upbringing or some other cause has left them with the belief that sex is bad and they would be wrong to desire it.
This is one of the things that worries me the most about the "just go with it, you found what she likes" school. If it's as simple as "she likes to be told what to do in bed, and maybe get her hair pulled a little" then fine, I can do that. Who am I kidding? I LOVE doing that. But (and maybe my Nice Guy Syndrome is acting up) I worry. I love doing it, she loves doing it, but does that make it a good idea? Fundamentally, her "Nice Girls Don't" attitude is unhealthy and untrue. By dominating her this way, I'm basically saying to her "You're right; you'd be a slut if you were making love to your husband, but you're being raped by a swashbuckling browncoat, so you might as well lie back and think of England." That can't be healthy, can it? If we do that for 20 years, how much cognitive dissonance is going to build up in her mind, and what will it do to her? Or maybe I'm saying "You're right, sex is filthy, but I'm really the filthy one, because I want sex and you don't." This also doesn't seem particularly healthy. How does she stay in love with the guy who forces immorality on her, even if she enjoys the immoral filth at the moment it's happening? Do I really want to be the scapegoat?
I'm not married to any of this. These are just ideas that I'd like everyone to react to. They didn't seem to fit in the thread where Bagheera posted the original comments. Everybody who's still responding to what I say, tell me what you think, please.
