I have very long hair too.... my H doesn't like it pulled back. Interesting.... His Mom is very uptight , stiff hair do etc. etc. etc. You know "MOM"~ mode...
Anyway I see your point. Weird in a way that one looks for that opposite almost. Any good books on the subject?
I myself have read Passionate Marriage and loved it.. a bit complicated but I loved it. I grew up with the belief that my sex drive was "bad". And good girls dont... well they dont so much of anything.
When I met my H I devoured him like an eclair. Sexually I felt strong and I loved exploring my sexuality with him and then I had kids with him and it "magically" disappeared. UUGGH~
Anyway your post has opened up a new way of looking at things for me.. I am definitely going to at least read about it some more. I was in sex therapy a long time ago but I was "recovering" and " surviving" so I didnt get to explore my sexuality too much..
WE have explored fantasies and have a lot of fun with it actually. I am very open and liberal. Last year when I was testing the naughty girl water again..... I picked him up at the airport w/o undies on... in a dress and showed him on the drive home. He loved it and we had a great evening..... I am very open at at the same time I have to fight my internal dialougue. And that is sometimes hard....
I also *( now~) put my H before my kids and yes that sounds like I am a bad Mother in print......
But actually it makes me a very good Mother. It is amazing how happily the home runs when Daddy is happy and Mommy is happy. I used to follow the order that is somehow preordained by who I dunno? First make kids happy then hubby and if there is time left you can be happy too but not before your kids for heavens sake.
I would read Michael J. Bader's Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies. Just be prepared for lots of psycho-babble: his intended audience is fellow analysts and therapists, not the general public.
I swear Ali, you're at least a switch, who's been taking on a very dominate role of late. I'd be interested to know what your fantasy is (over in your thread), BUT it's probably better to keep it private between you and hubby. You and DQ already drive us boys nuts with your stories....
And I fully agree with you: Child Centered Marriage == BAD NEWS, even for the kids. Been there, done that, it is TEH SUKZOR.
See what my older kids do to my vocabulary?
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
If I rent it tonight, I may have to give a different meaning to the term Taken in Hand. My wife and kids are across country on summer vacation, and it will be another week before I can join them.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
A little more blogging this morning, whilst doing laundry. (Yes, I'm still home alone too -- I hate separations).
In yesterday's post, I discussed how my sexual archetype (my ideal fantasy girl) helps me to overcome my built-in pathogenic beliefs. She proves, both with her body and actions, that Nice Girls Do, with enthusiasm. She is also strong enough to take anything that this Nice Boy might do to her, and enjoy the hell out of it. In my case, it's all pretty straight-forward and vanilla.
But what about my wife, and other sexual submissives? For the obvious reason, I wanted to understand where this sexual archetype came from most of all. There are three layers to this 'onion,' the first two of which would apply to most women who are sexual submissives:
(1) Nice Girls Don't (desire or enjoy sex)
I've discussed this 'topmost' layer before, so I won't go into great detail:
Sexual archetypes are our way of overcoming the guilt and shame surrounding pathogenic believes, and this one is pretty universally drilled into young women. One way of overcoming this guilt (but not the only way) is to be overcome by, or forced to submit to, a strong, over-powering, dominating man. Then it becomes, "he made me do it" or "I couldn't resist him." Responsibility for the act shifts to the man, and the woman can then enjoy it without guilt or shame.
I'll remind you: these are NOT conscious decisions or thought processes -- this is all going on in the sub-conscious. All the woman will know is, "this turns me on, while that doesn't." So don't accuse your wife of playing Jedi mind games with you: she's not.
(2) A history of 'weak' men
Digging down one layer:
According to Bader's book, guilt associating with hurting or overpowering members of the opposite sex is a common theme among pathogenic beliefs (for both men and women). And as a child, we often take on the guilt of our parents too. For example, the daughter of a weak father and a dominant, overbearing mother can form the pathogenic belief that ALL men are weak and easily overpowered by her sexuality: so she unconsciously compensates by having a fantasy man who is strong, overpowering, and who 'takes' her -- one who isn't weak and can't be hurt by her. My own wife was raised by a single parent (her mother) and thus grew up with a string of men who either abandoned her -- like her father -- or who were too weak to handle or stand up to her mother, and so she fits this profile nicely.
The unconscious belief that men are inherently weak (and thus the tendency towards sexual submission to prove this wrong) can also occur later in life. One of the best kept secrets of many ardent feminists is that they secretly fantasize about some brute who will simply ravish them without regard to their stated beliefs. Many other strong, dominant women, in positions of power and authority over men by day, want to just let go and submit to a stronger man by night. I'm NOT saying that this is universal and applies to all strong, dominant women (everyone is different), but it is a common trait and should be considered.
A long standing sex-starved marriage with an HD man and an LD woman may also contribute to creating a sexually submissive wife. I know in my own case that my wife still carries a tremendous amount of guilt over the hurt that she caused me over the years regarding her lack of sexual desire. When we were at our worst, I would easily become angry and frustrated about it, yell, stalk off to the couch for the night, and even punched a hole in the wall on one occasion (and nearly broke my fingers, stupid jerk). In doing so, I inadvertently became yet another weak man, in her chain of weak men, whom she could easily hurt and who saddled her with the burden of his sexual needs. Being sexually submissive is an unconscious way of removing such guilt and burdens, and permits her to become sexually aroused and enjoy herself.
This is one of the reasons why I encourage the oft-rejected, HD men here to 'man up' and approach their wives for sex in a direct, confident, masculine manner. If you appear weak and timid, if your wife feels 'burdened' by your sexual needs, you are all the more likely to turn her off and get rejected...again.
(3) A history of childhood sexual abuse
The third, and darkest, layer only applies to some women (although far too many), but is a layer that we've had to grapple with in our marriage, since my wife was sexually abused as a young girl. I'm getting more personal here than I ever have before on this forum.
One of the most difficult concepts to understand, as someone who was not sexually abused as a child, is the fact that many such victims completely eroticize their abuse circumstances when they become adults. In other words, what once was a source of trauma and hurt as a child gets unconsciously turned into a source of pleasure as an adult. It's a wonderfully ingenious way for the unconscious mind to 'turn the tables' on the abuse, a way to overcome it and triumph over it. This explains why many victims become sexually promiscuous as adults, as a way of dealing with such past pain. Some become sexual dominants, seizing power where as a child, they were powerless. Others become sexual submissives, taking their pleasure directly from what was previously traumatizing.
This later bears a little more explanation, since on the surface, it doesn't make logical sense. Why would anyone purposefully recreate the circumstances of their abuse? The primary difference lies in the fact that this time, THEY ARE IN CONTROL of it. It is done voluntarily and by consent, usually with someone whom they love and trust, and if a limit is approached, they can call for a stop immediately. Where before they were completely helpless and had no control at all, now they do. And it becomes that much more of a triumph when it occurs with someone with whom they are deeply committed and loved -- the circle is complete, as it were.
God, how I wish I had understood this years ago. I knew about my wife's history before we were married, and it made me admire my wife-to-be all the more for the strong, independent young woman that she had become. After we were married, however, her buried past came bubbling to the surface again, to the point of her having flashbacks while making love to me --> and it is an absolutely awful experience to have your own wife look at you with terror in her eyes when you are feeling just the opposite at that moment.
At the time we went to counseling, and I'm sure the counselor encouraged me not to take it personally, but I know that I did anyway. Such incidents made ME feel like an abuser, although I know that is NOT how my wife viewed it. And so I made the mistake of ratcheting back the level of passion that I showed for my wife while making love -- I become more soft, more gentle, and more attentive -- all in an attempt to be the Anti-Abuser. I thought that was what she needed, when in fact, she really needed the opposite. I should have ramped UP my passion for her, linked it strongly to my love for her, and helped her to break through those old hurts. Instead, we spiraled further into a long-term sex-starved marriage.
There were, of course, other contributing factors. When the first child arrived, she wrapped herself up completely in Mommy-Mode, wanting for her children the family life she didn't have herself. With pregnancy and child rearing she developed strong body image problems. And as my relationship with her became more distant with a child (or two) between us, I withdrew from her, and I no longer cared for her and cherished her in the way that I should have. I kept the paychecks coming in, and did the yard-work, but felt pushed to the outskirts of the family in every other respect. Nonetheless, we maintained our love for each other, and connected often enough to stay together, and now we get to emerge from the valley of fire hand-in-hand on the other side. It's about time!
So hang in there guys, and fight for your marriages. And hopefully, I've given some of you a glimpse of what might be 'under the hood' of a wife whom you are having a very hard time understanding. Don't walk my painful path -- learn early, learn well, and repair your marriage!
Bagheera
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/12/0805:10 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Oh Baggy...your post nearly brought tears to my eyes.
Anyway...your research has served you so well. I wish other men in SSM's would do that type of research, so as to better understand women in general and their wives in particular. Seriously, the nose-to-the-books research is what it takes most times.
Anyway, so many people have an SSM (or other marital problems) but it escapes most of us that we will need help in dealing with and understanding the problem.
Seems that somehow, people in general believe that relationships should be "easy", that they will just naturally flow, that if there is a problem it will "fix itself", that if things don't just naturally flow and things don't fix themselves, it must be a bad relationship so lets just ditch it and get out now. Or we try to "fix it" - - - by pulling back, getting stubborn, and expecting the other party to fix their end first before we will fix our end. Or we may allow some counseling into our arena to try and help us, but basically if the counselor isn't really REALLY good and intuitive and pulls you out of your stubborn hiding place, it won't do any good - - and then "oh well it must not be able to be fixed".
Instead...relationships should be considered more complicated than computers and machinery. We NEED EXPERTS to help us with those things. We need manuals and books and study, before we should ever just get into the tower of our computers and tinker with them and expect it to fix a problem.
When I was married, I made that mistake of expecting a relationship to fix itself and if it didn't, it meant there wasn't enough love there to make it better.
I was so wrong! Baggy has it figured out. It takes study and dedication to learning yourself and your partner and your relationship. If we aren't willing to do those things, then of course we are going to fail.
Baggy, thank you for sharing all you have learned and continue to learn. And hopefully others with follow suit and do their own study and research. THAT is what it takes - or at least, it is one of the many many things it takes to fix a broken/bruised relationship. Its so complicated, but with tools and knowledge, you have a huge head start toward 100% recovery.
He loved it and we had a great evening.....