toruble on the the lake erie shore...#4!

[pisces9]

alrighty nutso dude...he he! all i know from my end is when my H opened up to me last week i played it cool and i was so excited to hear it- so i know its diff as the WAW but she likes hearing it im sure...just dont overdo it and maybe back off a bit and just be casual for a while...teeny bits here and there maybe with humor, etc. you are doing well and your communication is much better than it was awhile back...baby steps- YAY

[Forrest Gump]

I have some thoughts for you.. bear with me..

[Neilh23]

alrighty. I'll be waiting.

having some difficulty today. I'm seeing many of the issues my behaviors caused in my M..... and wonder if my W will come back. I've hurt her so much.

sad today. I think i need to feel this tho.

I will post the things later....it's VERY complicated. I'm writing an email to my W about it. Once that's done, i'll copy and paste it here. I'm not sure whether i will send it to her or not.

[TwinDad]

Neil,

Without reading your e-mail, I could almost say that now is probably not the time to send her an e-mail of that type.....remember she is driving the R right now

[Neilh23]

oh i know. it's therapeutic more than anything. Like i need to write this out to her in order to fully grasp it.

i'm still going to post it because it'll explain alot about my personality and why i doubt myself all the time

[Neilh23]

this is the email i wrote, but have yet to send, to my wife...

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated....and hopefully, this explains why i doubt myself a whole ton...

"hey....

as you might be aware (LOL), i'm not very good at organizing my thoughts and speaking them outloud so they make sense. That being the case, i wanted to write you about this stuff....

the hardest thing for me to do is see things through your eyes. I think I'm beginning to. You said at the start of this period that i was controlling and that i should own it. For the longest time, i didn't see it (i know i said i did). Yes, of course my immediate actions during the first part of our separation, showed that i do (aka..calling the number, walking into the house like it was mine still, driving by that nite) act controlling. It took me a while to figure out how i was during the time we were together. I see it. NOt sure if I see all the things, but i do. Whenever I wanted something, be it from you or in general, I always stated my reasons why without letting you answer. That made it appear as if I was unbending and you didn't have a say. I never really let you get angry with me. Two minutes after we had an arguement, I would come up to you and try to diffuse the sitch without really letting you feel the anger.


Another thing you said was that you never felt like we were on an equal standing. I see that too. One, me always stating the reasons behind something. Secondly, the fact taht i always tried to fix your problems, rather than just listening to you. I understand how much that hurt you. It made it appear that you weren't capable of fixing or dealing with them yourself. All you needed was my ear. Whenever you talked about something, there were times when i had to put in my 2 cents, and relate it back to myself. I remember very clearly last fall when you were very upset about how they were treating you at school with the AP classes and you didn't have your books, etc. I told you to just quit teaching AP. That didn't help [censored]. All you needed was for me to say "what can i do to help you?"

this next part is going to sound self-centered again and as if i am making excuses for my behavior. It's not meant to be. These are some of the things that i've discovered during my talks with Von Korff...... and its only been recently that these things have really come to light. I'm not sure how to put it without it sounding like it is. this is pretty deep and complicated [censored]. I'll explain it as best as i can...

For the longest time, you were my "mirror." To some extent, in every relationship, the couples mirror each other. It's a healthy thing. Ours became poison. In a lot of ways, you were my moral compass, my guideline to life, my emotions, my existence. I needed your approval in order to do anything. THat's why i said at the start of this I would quit coaching if it meant we could be together. I needed you to tell me what to do to save our marriage. When in reality, i needed to figure it out on my own. From the emotional mirror aspect, I could see where i would've been controlling. I assumed my emotions were the same as yours....... when i was happy, i assumed you were happy and didn't allow any other thoughts to enter in. That's part of the reason i always tried to diffuse things when you were angry. Because I wasn't angry, i felt you shouldn't be either. Hell, i did this the other nite....when i said i wasn't ready to date you, and i said you probably weren't ready to date me either.............

I know why this got so bad. you always said my parents had a dsyfunctional relationship. At the start of this, you said my parents probably should've gotten divorced. You know my dad doesn't express emotions hardly at all. He doesn't like it when my mother is upset or cries. THat's a huge H trait. Because of that, my mother placed alot of her emotional well being in nick, jon, and I. Me mostly, being the oldest. She dictated my emotions, my feelings, my moral compass because she didn't get any emotional reassurance from my dad. She needed to get it from the three of us. Nick and Jon weren't affected as much by this as I was. I did both sides of this when we were together. I never let you get angry with me, and i got upset when you cried. I can't think of a time when you last cried in front of me...like really cried. I think it was after I did the windows at the house at W. THat's not healthy at all. I also assumed that because i thought everything was great, you did too. You stopped getting on my case about stuff, so i thought everything was improving. You felt otherwise. You were tired of fighting with me about emotions. You had become emotionally isolated in our relationship. I became like my dad. You said i was proud to be like my dad. IN some ways, i am. In this aspect, no, i am not. I hurt you by not letting you own your emotions and feel them.

one of the biggest things, i think, that you had problems with was my loyalty to my family, in particular my mom and grandma huber. This came from what dr von korff termed as the "golden boy" syndrome. Jon said it's the "first born" syndrome. My mom placed all her hopes and dreams for a great life and relationship in me, that i felt this pressure to be perfect. To be the perfect student. To be the perfect son. To have the perfect family (hence, part of the reason i never really allowed you to get mad at me because that would mean we weren't perfect). That, in a nutshell, is why i always felt obligated to go to all family functions. I was the perfect son, so i needed to be at all these things. I also got alot of the great traits from my mom and dad. I'm the best looking (yes, you've said that, as has your mom), i can be handy around the house, i'm the best athlete, i'm loyal to a fault sometimes, i'm the smartest. However, i picked up some of the worst ones too. Emotionless, and self-centeredness.

the self-centeredness is the hardest thing for me to grasp. My mom became self-centered because she needed to protect herself from my dad's lack of emotions. You've seen how she makes every situation about her. I talked with Aunt Sue about it, and it's true. Grandma M is like that. I think alot of the first born pressures that i got stemmed from both of my parents being the first born in their families, especially my mom (although my dad is the favorite on his side, he seems to have adapted better to it.) My mom felt alot of pressure from Grandma M to do things grandmas way. Hence, every xmas mornign we HAD to get dressed up and go over there and open gifts one at a time. Because that's how grandma wanted it. I picked that up somehow from my mom when she started to place alot of her emotional well being on me. I felt i was entitled to this great life, and nothing was going to stand in my way..... because that's the way i was brought up.

What this did, however, is create within me this immense self-confidence, but at the same time, incredible self-doubt. Deep down, I never thought i was good enough to be with anyone, including you. I never realized it until this happened. I know I am good enough. I just don't feel it, if that makes any sense. THat's why i always wanted to do things my way...and why i had such a hard time letting go here. And i think why i initiated alot of the convos about a reconciliation...because i needed that reassurance that things will be ok between us and we will stay together. It's also part of the reason i was afraid of you being mad at me...that you would leave me. However, in essence, i created what i looked to avoid.

I understand now how you felt that i never listened to you. My parents have never really listened to me. For example, when it came to pronouncing your name. I told them for years how to pronounce it right. It never sank it. I just gave up, and said well, that's how mom is and started to ignore it. It went into other parts of my relationship with them...i just started to ignore their behaviors and went about my business. The problem was is that you felt they dictated our lives alot, and because i didn't say anything, i wasn't listening to you.

They've taken our wedding photo off the mantel because they couldn't handle it. I asked them to put it back up because it would be supporting my goal. It was back up one time when i was up there, but not since. It hurts alot to not have that support. They've never helped me "own" the things i did wrong with us...they told me "it's not all your fault" and "don't beat yourself up." They tried to fix the problem, instead of empathizing with me and helping me solve it. They didn't really listen to me and meet my need of being listened to. That's why i talk to your dad more than my own parents about this. He does this really well. While I know he's been through this from guys standpoint, he and your mom listen really well and have helped me own my role in this.



we always said nick and jill were weird because they marched to the beat of their own drummer. in reality, they did it right. they cut themselves off from my parents because they saw what it's taken me (you saw this much earlier) to see. They're very dsyfunctional and very needy of us, especially me. Nick and Jon both agree that i'm the favorite.....so does Oia. I always knew it and in some ways fed off of it. THe problem was that it was poison to how I interacted within our relationship........ the entitlement i felt to do whatever i pleased. I see it still in how my parents, my dad especially, interacts with the girls....the girls are still his favorites. They insist our niece is worse than either one. I tell them its not the case....they just don't listen.



I thought i was someone i wasn't. I thought i was supportive. I wasn't. I thought i listened. I didn't really hear you. I thought you were happy. You weren't.



i beat myself up daily because i see this now. I hurt you..............so much. I can't change that. I did what i knew, and it was poison for us. I regret that more than i can express. I know better now.



I need to become the person i thought i was. I will become that person.



there's a reason behind why "trapped" is your ring tone. Check out the lyrics. You'll understand....."

[TwinDad]

Neil,

Pretty impressive letter....I definitley wouldn't send it too your W....just my opinion. I though it came from your heart but in some respects a lot of it "validated" who you were based on your up bringing. I think it is nice to know how your upbringing contributed to who you were, but I think that should be your information. Your W may take it as an excuse which isn't how you are intending it.

I think the important thing is that you recognize these facts and make the changes like you are doing. Your W likely cares little about "the why" things got to where they are and more about seeing them improve through actions (which you are doing a great job at).

Maybe one day when you two are on great terms would I bring this up. I hope this didn't come off at negative, I really do like what you wrote.

PS: I have experienced many of the same problems through my upbringing. I had never heard the "goldenboy" term before but the shoe fits me in many ways (perhaps not the good looking part...lol)

[The Wifey]

Neilh23,

I'm going to jump in here because I don't think you should send this. Your letter is focused on the past, and on your family history. I know you get around to how they both affected your r.

My h said something that resonated with me about how this is about him. With you upset and not eating, everyone is worried about you, I'm worried about you - its still all about you.

You need to let this be all about her. Her feelings, how you played a part in them sure, but how she is feeling and what she is thinking.

Any letter you eventually send should address what she feels, how you plan to address her feelings, etc and not on why you didn't in the past.

I'm not sure if I'm even making sense. But, the people on here have taught me about true giving. The reading I've done has reinforced the giving. Yes I hurt, I'm scared, I am having a hard time. But when I am with my h I don't let him know any of that. I focus on him.

I ask how work was. Does he want something to drink? Look, aren't the flowers over there pretty? How has the motorcycle rides been going? I ask and then listen. I don't care about what he talks about as long as he talks. And he sees that I am listening.

Don't go backward. Don't tell her why you weren't there for her in the past, just do the work and be there now and in the future.

[pisces9]

i also think this is good for your own thoughts- now you can see clearly what needs to change and you can SHOW her all of this overtime....words are just words...if you feel you need to change and really see where it needs it- and you make the changes, she will see it too.

I am impressed at your ability to "tattle" on yourself to us..this shows you really see the bigger picture and the future...keep it going...i think it is good to take stock of yourself, but also realize like Kelly Jo said it is all about her right now....

thanks for opening up Neil- sorry today is tough- maybe there is something in the air...


also- i realize i get anxious too no matter what H says or doesnt say...so it is good for me to look at my fears and why i am feeling negative, anxious, frustrated, sad, etc. bc when they are out of the picture so to speak- it shines the light on us and our brains! thisis something i want to chnage for my life. maybe the same for you with your parents- sure sounds like it...

[pisces9]

"My h said something that resonated with me about how this is about him. With you upset and not eating, everyone is worried about you, I'm worried about you - its still all about you."

wow- i really like how you said this wifey. it is so true...