All right, I'm having one of my bitter, analytical moods right now. I've been studiously avoiding references to sex since we made love on Thursday the 2nd. She was feeling pressured, so I'm trying not to pressure her. And this afternoon she actually reached out and touched my butt when I leaned over in the kitchen. That hasn't happened in months.
But I made the mistake, tonight, of asking her whether she still feels pressured. "Well . . . not really." Not really? What does that mean? "I meant no. I misspoke." I know you better than that . . . just tell me. "No, I misspoke. I meant no. I don't feel pressure."
On the one hand, I don't believe her.
On the other, it would madden me to be constantly second-guessed and treated like I might not be telling the truth.
On the third hand, the last time she finally admitted to feeling the pressure, it was after weeks of telling me how happy she was.
On the fourth hand, the book I'm reading right now says men think of women as liars because women contradict their past statements, but women see no contradiction because they're expressing the truth of the moment--and they express it as if it has always been that way and always will be. So if she felt happy yesterday, she expressed happiness as if she'd always been happy. If she feels pressure today, she will express that feeling as if she has always felt pressure. It's not literal truth the way a man thinks of it, but an expression of what she feels at the time. I have to tell you, that sounds like patronizing crap to me, but it does explain a lot of behavior.
Maybe to her it feels like she just had sex four days ago, so why would I bring it up again already? But to me it feels like she's had four days of no talk about sex at all, and any pressure should be off--but without SOME pressure from me, sex is going to be off the table permanently. She's just not interested.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the basic conflict in the advice I've gotten. At one point, people say to back off and avoid any pressure. At the other extreme, everyone says to man up and assert control of the relationship. At any given moment, it seems, one or the other does work--but the catch is that she won't tell me which works when; if I'm a "real man" I should just magically know the answer, apparently. The answer is either to ignore her sexually or to take her roughly in the barn--choose wisely!
You know, when I was a kid, some idiot thought I might be a genius and I was invited to spend a weekend at IMSA, this creepy school for brilliant teenagers near Chicago. They didn't allow cars, they didn't play football, and they burned their own mascot in effigy at a pep rally while we were there. It was more or less a place for people who were too far beyond their peers to be able to function in a normal school. I did not enjoy my stay there. In particular, I remember my roommate. He was obsessed with Dungeons 'n Dragons. The moment we met, before I'd put down my sleeping bag, he had a puzzle for me. I was supposed to choose which of three doors in a cave to open. Two were death and one was life, and there were no markings, no differences in the doors, blah blah blah.
Basically he wanted to play a monkey dominance game by keeping me guessing at a puzzle he'd designed to be impossible. He never did explain why his choice of door was the correct one; I don't know if there was any rhyme or reason to it.
I hated that son of a bitch and his guessing game.
I don't like guessing games.
Anyway, I'll probably feel better in the morning. I'll get up early, take a walk with my wife, and we'll see. Don't read too much into my late-night rantings; I need a way to vent a little, and this is it.
But I made the mistake, tonight, of asking her whether she still feels pressured.
Yep, you did, and here it is:
Quote:
On the one hand, I don't believe her.
On the other, it would madden me to be constantly second-guessed and treated like I might not be telling the truth.
Women tend to be very, VERY sensitive to how men respond to their expressions of feeling and emotion. They've had a lifetime of men inferring, or outright telling them, that they are emotional, irrational creatures who aren't worth listening to or taking seriously. The best thing that you can do when your wife expresses her feelings in some way, is to LISTEN to her, TRUST her to be honest with you, and ACCEPT what she is saying at face value. If you don't understand, then ask for more input, but NEVER belittle her or disbelieve her.
Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear
But to me it feels like she's had four days of no talk about sex at all, and any pressure should be off
You set a nice trap for both her and yourself, Bear. Note that ANY response she gave other than a validation of YOUR feelings that 'the pressure was off' was going to make you feel defensive and exasperated -- and it did.
Her initial response of "Well . . . not really," was an HONEST expression of how she was feeling. On the one hand, you had a good time last Thursday, and had a good weekend following that. On the other hand, she KNOWS that the clock is ticking and that you're slowly becoming sexually pent up. She knows you as well as you know her. So while you have been deliberately avoiding any overt pressure, it's still there, hanging between the two of you. It's almost impossible to avoid at this stage in your SSM recovery.
Quote:
--but without SOME pressure from me, sex is going to be off the table permanently. She's just not interested.
You both have a lot of TRUST to rebuild with regard to your sexual relationship. She has to learn to trust that your physical desires are an expression of your love for her, specifically, and not just a 'rutting' urge. You have to trust that your wife is, indeed, still a sexy and sexually interested woman, and not just an austere schoolmarm. Give it time -- you're both making good progress.
Quote:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the basic conflict in the advice I've gotten. At one point, people say to back off and avoid any pressure. At the other extreme, everyone says to man up and assert control of the relationship. At any given moment, it seems, one or the other does work--but the catch is that she won't tell me which works when; if I'm a "real man" I should just magically know the answer, apparently. The answer is either to ignore her sexually or to take her roughly in the barn--choose wisely!
In this context, "Pressure" means that you have placed the burden for your own sexual happiness on her shoulders. It is anything that you do to place control of the sexual relationship into her hands, and then you sit there like a dog waiting expectantly (or frustratingly) for a handout. First, this puppy-dog-mode is a very unattractive mode for you to be in, and is a turn-off for her. Second, if she is indeed a sexual submission, she will HATE having that control placed into her hands, which is another turn-off.
Instead, your taking control of and leading the sexual relationship will first mean patience on your part -- just accept that, for now, the sexual frequency won't be what you want it to be. You can't go from 10% to 100% in one step. But when you do feel that the time is right, it will also mean taking a risk and romancing/seducing your wife, rather than just giving her "the look" at 11 PM. In other words, you have to take responsibility, you have to take the risk, and you have to remove the burden for making yourself happy from her shoulders and place it on your own.
Your wife isn't off the hook entirely here: she has to learn to take Michele's advice and Just Do It! when you take the risk and attempt to seduce her -- especially in the beginning when such overtures feel rather awkward to the both of you. You BOTH need a string of successes in order to gain confidence and build a new pattern of interaction.
You could argue that this is still a form of pressure: pressure to respond positively to your seduction. But that kind of pressure is far less severe than the kind where you've placed all responsibility and control of the situation into her hands. In other words, we are encouraging you BOTH to share the risk and share in the pressure. You take the risk and seduce her, and she takes the risk and responds positively.
So we really haven't given you conflicting advice. We just haven't explained it well enough.
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/07/0805:34 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
You really are doing fine and making sure progress at improving your relationship. I'm impressed.
You've been posting to this thread for three weeks --> just 3 weeks. In looking it over, I feel like I've turned a fire hose on you and yelled "Drink up, kid!," expecting you to soak up in a couple of weeks what it has taken me literally MONTHS to figure out.
Along the way, I've certainly had my moments where I wanted to throw a self-help book across the room and stomp about singing "Why Can't a Woman be More Like a Man?" (from My Fair Lady) to my puzzled German Shepherd. So I can't blame you for your own moments of analytical exasperation -- they go with the process.
So, hang in there. You guys are making progress -- keep at it!
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Thank you. This might make me a puppy dog, but I think I needed somebody to tell me whether I'm really as terrible a guy as she seems to think sometimes.
(LONG ranting raving venting message deleted. Felt good to type it, though.)
I got rid of a long, angry rant here. I know that's not doing me any good, but I'm frustrated and it's hard not to get angry. I'd just gotten off the phone with my wife a few minutes before I wrote it, and I knew as I finished it that it wasn't really fair. Last night I took the twins to a club meeting two hours away and we got back late. She had a quiet night with the baby. Today she took the twins to their camps and the baby to the zoo. She was trying to get the boys out the door, and I was changing diapers, feeding the baby, cleaning out the car, packing up the stroller, making her coffee, whatever I could to help. She swears by this "love language" theory, and she says mine is touch and hers is acts of service. Well, I've been doing acts of service for years and she's never cared much, but whatever. Anyway, I come back in from cleaning out the car with an armful of bags of cups, papers, etc to throw away, and her only comment is "Hey, make sure the dishes get done today." I told her I'd planned on it (which was true), but I was already staying home to work hard on the house, and I didn't like being left with orders. She wasn't very happy with that, but she had to go.
Anyway, later on the phone, she told me she thought she'd been doing me a favor by taking the kids so I could work on the house. I told her that had nothing to do with it--I just didn't like being ordered to do the dishes while she headed out to picnic at the zoo with the baby, especially since she couldn't even bother to say thanks for all the things I did instead of taking a shower so she could make it out the door on time. She apologized and told me she was grateful for what I'd done. I guess I should be happy that we talked about it. I don't know.
I'm sure this means I was being a puppy and looking for a pat on the head. Maybe I was. I don't see it that way. I wasn't asking for anything in return; I just reached a point where the sheer ingratitude was too much.
Another disheartening thing I've noticed is that those passionate kisses have dried up again. That didn't last long. I try, but it's clear that she's not interested. Whether that means she was faking before or something changed, I don't know. Maybe all she really cared about was the novelty of responding, but whatever it was, it's gone now. She's back to her old ways.
Bagheera, when you say any response other than validation would make me feel exasperated . . . tell me if I'm kidding myself here. I really think that if she could find it in herself to say, "Since you asked, I do feel pressured, but if you could change this and this, I wouldn't" and actually follow through when I follow through, I don't think that would be exasperating. I think it was her attempt to play both sides and avoid giving me an answer that I found so frustrating.
Maybe she can't do that, but I think it would work.
A man finds a genie in a bottle. The genie only grants one wish. The man thought long and hard and decided that his wish would be for a bridge to be built between California and Hawaii, as he had always wanted to visit but was afraid to fly.
The genie told him, "well this can be accomplished, but there would be serious ecological effects by putting a bridge that long throughout the ocean. Do you think you could pick another wish that would not have such negative side effects?"
The man thought for a moment, and then said "ok well then my back up wish would be that I could really, truly understand women and how they think".
The genie said "how many lanes wide would you like that bridge?"
- - - -
I am sure this doesn't help you and possibly makes you grumpy (or as my little nephew says "gwumpy").
But hopefully it at least made you smile.
Silly, I have given up trying to give you advice because I fear you just see me like the enemy in some ways (plus I know I come across and too aggressive and know-it-all and that turns a lot of people off). But I am still reading and silently rooting for you to get this thing turned around. Bagheera is your best bet for advice.
Hang in there, and how wide do you want that bridge?
I think you are doing well ~SB. You need to slooooooooooooooow down and remember this will take time.
It is like when you are learning to dance "ballroom" dancing. You will step on eachothers feet, you might trip one another ..unintentionally and then after months and months of grueling practice.... you Dance beautifully and gracefully.
Does that metaphor help you see?
YOu two are doing great .... listen to Bagheera.... his advice is right on the money.... and get a journal or just keep venting here but also make a running list of what works and what doesnt...... I too at times would just want to give up , throw my hands up , hurry the process,,,,
What about what you are doing for you? I check on you now and again and every time I do you are doing more for her.
When was the last time she did something for you? And even better cause we cant control what others do when was the last time silly old bear did something for silly old bear?
Join a gym... Ride a bike.. go for a run...
Have a nite out with the guys? Something..... it seems you are losing yourself more than finding yourself at times....
you are an awesome H from what you post here and a great Dad too.... now what about you? Take care sweetie... Ali
(LONG ranting raving venting message deleted. Felt good to type it, though.)
Ha! I got to read it anyway...it came across in my email notifications.
Quote:
She told me she thought she'd been doing me a favor by taking the kids so I could work on the house. I told her that had nothing to do with it--I just didn't like being ordered to do the dishes while she headed out to picnic at the zoo with the baby, especially since she couldn't even bother to say thanks for all the things I did instead of taking a shower so she could make it out the door on time. She apologized and told me she was grateful for what I'd done. I guess I should be happy that we talked about it. I don't know.
Bear, you have a perfect right to stand up for yourself, and not just be taken for granted or ordered about. KEEP AT IT! No, she's not going to like it, but she'll get over it and respect you all the more for it.
I'm going to keep encouraging you to get beyond your 'Nice Guy Syndrome' by
(1) carving out your own life and agenda, (2) taking charge and being the 'Man' of the house, (3) serving your wife and family for YOUR own gratification, and not expecting anything else in return, and (4) taking charge of your own sex-life.
You've already laid out your own GAL program, so (1) is going well. Don't let it slip!
As for (2), you already know that she has a tendency to act like her mother, and her school-teacher job reinforces that tendency. Don't let her get away with it. It may mean a few angry confrontations before she gets the message, but in the long run, she'll find you all the more sexually attractive and deserving of respect. Stand firm, don't let her dominate you, and be your own man.
Number (3) is a hard one to change. The old 'Nice Guy' covert-contract bit is a really difficult habit to break. "I'm doing this, and this, and this for you; so surely you owe me something in return" --> this doesn't work. The more you can find your own satisfaction in such service, the better -- let it be an expression of your love, and an end in itself.
And finally number (4). I hear and understand what you're saying. Not three months ago, I was telling our therapist how I felt like my own wife was still in control of our sex-life: she maintained the power, she was the 'gate-keeper,' and she set the pace. Her response? She said that she felt like -> I <- was the one in charge, the one setting the pace, and that she was like a horse out in front of the chariot, with my reins constant slapping her backside to go faster. I'd be willing to guess that you and your wife have a similar dynamic going on right now.
So take a deep breath (or ten), and relax some. I know all too well how bloody confusing the male-female dynamic can be, especially in dealing with a strong woman who is, at heart, a sexual submissive. As Alimari says, slooooow dooooown, and take things one day at a time.
If it helps at all, I've felt exactly as you are right now: You're being told by your wife (and us) to let up on the 'pressure' you wife feels, while at the same time, you're scared to death that if you do, she'll say "Cool, no more sex, EVER!" You're being told to take charge and initiate sex in a firm, seductive way, while YOU'RE the one who's been rejected and shot down by her repeatedly over the past several years -- what's fair about that? She gets the easy part, kicking back and saying "yay" or "nay."
The truth is, none of this is easy. Changing a long-standing bad relationship is hard effing work. It takes months, with many regressions, failures, and sleepless nights along the way. But it CAN be done, and YOU can do it.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
So she came home all flustered and worn out. Frankly, I was hot and tired, too. But I did do one smart thing (other than the dishes) by lighting the charcoal grill, figuring we'd have supper. It turned out that she'd come home starving, so she was delighted. "You read my mind!" she said.
Later I was carrying a bunch of stuff inside through the sliding door. This can get complicated since we only have the dogs about halfway trained not to bolt through the door, and my hands were full. I was through the door and closing it when she called out "Wait!" So I waited for her, holding the door open about six inches, my hands full, holding the dogs back with my foot. She got up and padded over, then stood there. "Are you coming through?" I grunted. "No, I was just coming to help!" she said brightly.
I couldn't help but laugh. I shut the door and went on my way. What did she think she was going to help me do? I was done and on my way. I wasn't mad, I just noticed how silly the whole thing was. I put everything down and went back, and she was coming through the door. She apologized. "You want to help? Here's how you can help me." I said. I pulled her in and gave her my best effort at a passionate kiss, and she kissed me right back.
Sometimes I think she's off reading these threads somewhere and plotting to make me eat my words each time I complain about something.
