Many couples initally have a strong mutual sex drive and satisfying sex life at the time of marriage but somewhere along the way, the other spouse begins loosing their sex drive. Eventually a portion of these low sex drive partners then loose all desire for sex for a variety of hormonal, psychological and/or physical reasons and become no sex drive partners.
Many (not all) of these low/no sex drive spouses would not even consider the possibility of sex with their spouse, except in very rare circumstances (maybe a few times a year if pressured or to provide a "reward" to the other spouse to get something they want). They seem to have a total aversion to sexual contact and shy away from any situation that could lead to the possibility of a sexual encounter with their spouse.
The low/sex drive partner usually knows the other partner has significant sexual needs and frustrations, knows how miserable they become after long periods of sexual neglect (months and years) but will do little or nothing to work together on the situation. Any attempt to bring up the "sex" topic with the low/no sex drive spouse can often be met with total hostility, leading to the punishment by the low/no sex drive partner of his/he spouse. Having said all of that, the low/no sex drive spouse still professes to love their mate. How can that be? Can the low/no sex drive spouse really love their partner if they will not even consider the possibility of working on a mutually agreeable arrangement? How can bitterness on both sides not set in?
The fundamental question for the partner with a reaonably normal sex drive is how can you move forward with your low/no sex drive partner if he/she is not willing to consider the possibility of working out a solution? Is the threat of divorce (or divorse itself) ultimately the only real solution if you are craving a physical relationship in this circumstance?
Any real world comments or suggestions will be very useful.
From this post, I see you getting very bitter and basically ticked off. Maybe just desparate. I can tell you that for me, the low desire spouse, love DOES NOT equal sex. I know it makes no sense to you. To me it does. I love my husband more than anything in the entire world, he is my everything. Do I want to have sex? No. I can't explain it, I just don't.
I'm the one that read the book two weeks ago and my H and I are still doing great. 3 times since reading the book. That in itself is a divine miracle for a couple who "got busy" about 8 times a year. I am going to post a message to all the high desire people about what's in my head. It may be different from your wife's thoughts but, you just never know.
My H posts on the board to as jongo13. I will make sure he responds to this thread tonight. Maybe he has some good advice.
Hi lowrob, I don't know specifically what you can do in your situation. I've found trying to deal with someone else's situation where you really don't know the history and you don't hear the other person's viewpoint, that it's hard to give very useful advice. Ask Sooner, how little help I was to him . I can tell you about what happened with me and my H. You take from it what you can.
I think in many ways our r and the way we handled things, particularly the way my h handled things, was different from the typical SSM marriage. He handled things in a way that helped me stay motivated to figure out how to solve the problem. I was angry with him about a bunch of other stuff, but nevertheless, he did a great job of dealing with the SS period of our marriage.
First, he believed me when I said I loved him even though I didn't want to have sex. He kept the pressure off me of having to prove my love for him through sex. He simply took me at my word. If your w tells you she loves you, even if she doesn't want to have sex...believe her. Don't tear yourself up inside over the idea that your w doesn't care about you and love you because of her low sexual desire. It may not make sense to you, but just believe.
Second, he gave me space. I knew what he wanted, but he didn't press the issue. We didn't get into arguments about it.
Third, he didn't ask me for reasons for why I didn't want sex. I couldn't have told him what the reasons were anyway. I was pretty baffled myself. In fact, I turned myself into an amazing knot trying to figure it out for myself.
If he had been pressing me for reasons, I would probably have gotten angry with him about it. We probably would have had big arguments. The anger would have been mostly due to my own frustration over my own lack of understanding of what was going on and then being pressed for answers I couldn't give. Take my level of frustration, sense of failure and worthlessness, add his pressing me for answers, and I probably would have exploded at the nearest target...him. Then that would have probably set up the fruitless cycle of argument, anger, and getting further and further apart because neither wants to be the first to give in.
The reality was there wasn't anything he could do that was going to magically bring my desire back. It wasn't about him. He realized that long before I did. I can remember the moment when I said to him, "I wish I knew what happened to my sex drive." The sense of relief I felt just saying that out loud to him was amazing. I'd say that was one of the important moments for us, where solutions reallyt started coming. If we had been having fights and lots of hurt feelings over the issue, I'm not sure I would have found it very easy to say that to him.
Fourth, since we've been having more discussions about sex, he has come to appreciate how difficult it can be to get started having sex when you really don't want to. He doesn't have personal experience with it for himself, but we've had some discussions about what it feels like for me when I'm not in the mood, particularly at the beginning. He realizes that it isn't a small bump in the road, but requires effort on my part, sometimes quite significant effort. He doesn't hold it against me that it isn't always easy and effortless for me. It's just the way my body sometimes works and it isn't about my love for him.
Finally, I've realized something that may be most fundamental to why we were able to work things out. He and I agree on the role of sex in marriage. We both believe in monogamy and fidelity. We don't believe sex is the central defining aspect of marriage though. The state of our sex life is not going to make or break our marriage for either of us. He likes sex A WHOLE LOT! And my desire level is back up to what I was used to before it disappeared...most of the time anyway. But sex doesn't hold as important a place in our marriage relative to so many other things
I do believe now that my H is different from the HD spouses who post on this board in that he doesn't equate sex with love. He equates sex with FUN ! Somehow that just makes it different. Less pressure. Infectious enjoyment, in fact. When I started looking at it like that, instead of racking my brain about the relationship between love and sex, I felt my desire increase. Sex is something we do together for the fun of it.
MPT - I haven't even finished reading your post yet, but I wanted you to know that you've been extremely helpful to me. The fact that I haven't yet found a solution is by no means a reflection on the quality of your input. I always learn a lot from your posts and I appreciate them greatly. Please don't hesitate to give me your input - I need all that I can get.
I finished your post now MPT and you said something that started me thinking. In theory, I can understand when you say that you can love your spouse and not want to have sex with them. I think my wife is probably the same way - I honestly believe that she loves me. But the problem is that I get to feeling that she doesn't love me, or that she's not "in love" with me, and even if I believe in my heart that she does love me, my emotions (or whatever) take over and I feel like she doesn't. Does that make any sense?
Anyway, I do believe that sex and love are at least somewhat related in a marriage. However, I very much like sex for the fun aspect of it as well. I've told my wife that I think sex is by far the most fun we can have as human beings. I guess I've stayed away from stressing that because if she thought that all of my whining was just becuase I was missing out on some fun, I think she'd see me as shallow and selfish. Am I going about this whole thing the wrong way. Should I simply say "I know that you love me - I don't need sex to know that, I just want to have some fun with you"? Obviously I'd phrase that a bit better, but you probably get my point.
By the way, I agree with you that there a lot of things more important than sex in a marriage. But when sex (and romance in general) is the only thing missing, and the lack of it is driving one of you into depression, I think it becomes a central issue - at least until it's resolved.
Quick response here and then I'll try to do a little more over in your thread when I have a little more time.
Quote: I honestly believe that she loves me. But the problem is that I get to feeling that she doesn't love me, or that she's not "in love" with me, and even if I believe in my heart that she does love me, my emotions (or whatever) take over and I feel like she doesn't.
Understood. Just realize that this is coming from you, not her. You and I were doing the same thing with respect to our spouses, leading to our distressed feelings toward our spouses and marriages. Different issue, same behavior on our part. I'll say more later.
Quote: Anyway, I do believe that sex and love are at least somewhat related in a marriage.
Yes. The point my h made through his response to the situation was that he knew the love was a constant within our marriage. The love was the central core to our marriage. That was firmly there without question. Because of his understanding of that core, variations in behavior (including sexual interest) were the branches blowing in the wind or the leaves budding, growing, changing color, falling away and then returning. ( ) This belief is what kept him grounded, happy, friendly, and patient throughout our SS period. His attitude and behavior are what kept sex from becoming a battleground for us.
Quote: But when sex (and romance in general) is the only thing missing, and the lack of it is driving one of you into depression, I think it becomes a central issue - at least until it's resolved.
I've got too long a response to this for the moment. But think about what you wrote...sex/romance is the only thing missing right now from your marriage.
I have gained some excellent insight from your post and will reflect on your thoughts. I am hoping to gain the strength to deal with our sex drive differences in a much more positive way - try to support (I know I am capable of this) and more effectively communicate with her (I need to work on this with respect to our sex drive differences). From what you are saying, this type of consistant supportive approach will eventually bring couples to understand each other more deeply and will also lead to a more balanced sexual relationship. It is hard to be patient and supportive but the alternatives are likely doomed to failure. Perhaps the wife (and I) will also be interested in considering the thoughts and ideas in Michele's book.
I am not sure if I believe or disbelieve your comment concerning "most men who post on this board equate sex with love". Its probably a matter of interpretation and this is a complicated issue. But speaking for myself (and I suspect most of the men that post on this board) I believe I am doing so because I love my wife and I am trying to understand what and why this part of our relationship has drastically changed and how to deal with the situation (otherwise I would be divorsed or looking for an affair).
In addition, for many guys, the attraction to sex is not necessarily from the physical act but the idea that you and your wife are attracted to each other, are passionate with each other, want to please each other and accept each other unconditionally. Yes, the sex itself is important, but most men are even more interested in the idea that you are pleasuring your wife and she desires you. I am not sure if many women really understand this concept and believe its only about satisfying the guy's selfish animal instinct.
Once again, thanks MPT for the time you take to respond, and providing me with a very positive message for moving forward in our relationship.
HI lowrob In regards to your question, I dont beleive you can move forward with a LD partner who isnt willing to change. I think you can only hold on until a solution is found. I went 8 years with a LD W who, knew there was a problem but just couldnt or wouldnt change. But then things came to a head and after days of arguements,talks,slient treatments etc. I asked for a divorce. All of a sudden my W jumped into action looking for a solution. She discovered this website and SSM,and we began our road to recovery. Would asking for the big D help you??? Who knows. It seemed to work for me but I could just be one of the lucky ones who discovered the magical solution. I wouldnt suggest it to anyone but if all else fails.... I read your posts and like a lot of HD men on here completly understand the frustration and bitterness. I delt with 8 years of LD aggravation and never understood my W reasoning. Now I realize that the only way to a solution is understanding. Good Luck on finding the path to understanding.
Quoting MPT:The point my h made through his response to the situation was that he knew the love was a constant within our marriage. The love was the central core to our marriage. That was firmly there without question. Because of his understanding of that core, variations in behavior (including sexual interest) were the branches blowing in the wind or the leaves budding, growing, changing color, falling away and then returning. ( ) This belief is what kept him grounded, happy, friendly, and patient throughout our SS period. His attitude and behavior are what kept sex from becoming a battleground for us
Hello MPT,
I think this idea/concept is really lovely. Think I will borrow it for my sitch. Thanks.
Thanks for the response and that of your wife. I really admire your situation and the change that has occurred in your physical and emotional relationship. Your wife must be incredibly special to make the huge step to consider the possibility of change in this department. You are also one persistant and understanding guy.
I also really feel for Sooner, his posts are excellent at describing the confusion and suffering that the husband feels after years of frustration and no end in sight. Virtually no other positive avenues to motivate change remain untried and the emotional portion of the relationship goes through a roller coaster ride, more often than not on the downhill slide.
My comments following relate only to what I see as the male perspective. I find it almost unfathonable (although I know it is true) that many wives are in the reverse situation and I would have no idea if the same dynamics would be at play in this situation.
Having read your posts Jongo and Sooner (and the posts of many men on this board), it is shocking to me that there are so many of us who are in virtually identical situations where we initially had a loving and sexual relationship with our wives but over time the wife has given up embrasing the physical portion of our relationship. No apparent reason. Nothing you can really do to change the situation. Just accept. For years and years and years. Nothing, absolutely nothing seems to motivate the desire to change. The wife loved and continues to love the husband, seemingly enjoyed a physical relationship at one time and believes she might enjoy this again, but its gone and lost. The husband really "craves" this relationship and the more it is denied, the more he craves. The harder the husband tries, the more elusive a satisfactory resolution appears.
On the one hand the wife thinks of herself as inadequate and deep down knows that a physical relationship is important and not really that objectionable, but just will not go there.
So what can you do to motivate change? Well it seems from the posts of men and women who have been on both sides of the fence, that there are probably two paths to motivate change. The first is to be patient, fully accepting, supportive, loving, no pressure at all, try keep the lines of communciation open and very positive and hope that over time that a physical relationship evolves. This approach may or may not be successful and could take years or decades to be successful. On the other hand, passive aggresive type behaviour seems to make the situation much worse and doesn't seem to have any hope of motivating a change in the situation. Onto the other extreme, when you take an aggressive approach you are rolling the dice. Aggressive behaviour usually involves the threat of loss of your relationship through either affairs or divorse. This would appear to be a very risky approach but has the advantage of bringing the situation to a quicker resolution but has the disadavantage that you may loose your relationsip altogether. You would really have to be fully prepared to walk away from your relationship to take this approach.
So most of us, who love our wives, are caught in this terrible dillema and typically end up taking the worst possible approach, the passive aggressive behaviour. I guess that is human nature. We go back and forth in a circle of frustration and confusion.
Comments on this analysis would be very useful - am I missing something?
. I can tell you about what happened with me and my H. You take from it what you can.
! Somehow that just makes it different. Less pressure. Infectious enjoyment, in fact. When I started looking at it like that, instead of racking my brain about the relationship between love and sex, I felt my desire increase. Sex is something we do together for the fun of it.
) This belief is what kept him grounded, happy, friendly, and patient throughout our SS period. His attitude and behavior are what kept sex from becoming a battleground for us.