You know lodo, I always have admired you. You have always stayed friends with your W regardless of what was going on. It takes a big man to do that (and I am not talking about weight lol!). I dont' think realizes what she has gotten herself into. I know my H doesn't get it either. I want to eventually be friends with my H. It is hard losing your spouse and your friend at the same time.
I do find it funny in a way that she did all her communication through email. What would she have done 20 years ago? Yikes...talk to you in person???
Me-31 H-38 M: 5 yrs T: 7 yrs No kids Went to Prostitutes 10-1-06 Found out about OW 12-24-07 Bomb on EA/PA: 1-2-08 OW ended it with H "for good" 3-8-08 OW is back 4-19-08 H and OW tell me that they are in love 5-19-08 Filed for divorce 6-5-08 Divorced 7-2-08
what a nice thing to say It is hard losing a best friend - we communicate together like no one I've ever encountered before. And I think she'd agree with that.
Well, I don't know about 20 years ago, but 9 years ago she did it with a mixture of email and letters. I guess there were some phone calls too.
played hookey today and got caught up on paperwork. Well, kinda caught up - still a lot left to do but i HAD to go out for a long run, right? justifiction, justification....
On that long run, i thought about this long conversation I had last night with a friend from the midwest. all this stuff has been rattling around in my head for so long that it's hard to get perspective, but I think things are starting to settle into recognizable patterns.
The first thing I recognize is that W is responsible for her own happiness in a R. If she can only find that happiness alone, there is nothing anyone will ever be able to do to make a R work with her. I am not responsible for her happiness. I'm only responsible to show a willingness to compromise for the good of the R and to show support, friendship, love, and understanding. Have I shown her that? To be truthful, probably not. I thought she needed space, not support, so how many times have I never been there for her? And yet it was okay, in my mind, because she was never there for me. Bad patterns even though we both connect so well.
Second, I think she retreats into her independence as a way of dealing with rejection. I was her first relationship for this reason. And she has retreated again after not getting the attention she wanted from me. That said, I have to ask why I was drawn to her in the first place. Was it this independence? I think it was. And that might mean I have my own intimacy issues. After all, I was content to let her leave town for 3-6 weeks at a stretch and not feel the need to drive out and join her. Will have to think about this more.
Third, she has pushed a lot of blame on me, in her own way. This comes through in our interaction patterns. It's the small things that say a lot. She can justify as much as she wants, but when she moves on and is still unhappy, she'll realize the problem is her. I'm happy to let that go and not feel bad about myself for being generous. The justifications, the infidelities, the lying, the selfishness - why on earth would I let her make ME feel responsible for that?! And yet that's what happened ...
We all owe ourselves dignity and self-respect. Joan Didion had this to say about self respect: "To have that sense of one's intrinsic worth which constitutes self-respect is potentially to have everything: the ability to discriminate, to love and to remain indifferent." I don't agree with large swaths of her essay, but this gave me pause. It's time for me to learn indifference.
I sent a poem to a friend, a snippet from "The Deer" by Mary Oliver. Here's the snippet that I sent:
"This is the earnest work. Each of us is given only so many mornings to do it - to look around and love the oily fur of our lives, the hoof and the grass-stained muzzle. Days I don't do this I feel the terror idleness like a red thirst."
I didn't tell my friend the context of this poem. My wife wrote this in a letter to me after she'd begun her master's degree and was trying to justify why she wanted to concentrate on her school work and not deal with a R. It was in the break-up letter. I had never read the complete poem, and on a whim I looked it up. What a surprise to find that the "Deer" isn't singular, but plural - two. What did Mary Oliver mean by this? She describes seeing two deer "like two sisters" that she follows with what's written above - why two? Out of context, as my W wrote it, the snippet justifies self-focus. Selfishness. In context, I think it means something else entirely. It is expanding the boundaries of self. It is a longing for the relationship of oneself to those around us. An entirely different meaning completely. IMO. And isn't it interesting what my wife got out of it - justification.
I don't know. Musings.
I'm still high on this incredible soup I made last night. It was metaphysical. I don't think I've ever made something that offered transcendence, but this did. Could it have been the butter?
Maybe all of those patatoes! or carrots? or did you sneak in some fruit after all??
I think anyone really can take something out of context and make it their own to justify the reason they are doing what they do. You don't have to be doing something "wrong" for that to happen.
I wish you clarity and peace and that happiness will fill your heart in the not too distant future.
kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
We all owe ourselves dignity and self-respect. Joan Didion had this to say about self respect: "To have that sense of one's intrinsic worth which constitutes self-respect is potentially to have everything: the ability to discriminate, to love and to remain indifferent." I don't agree with large swaths of her essay, but this gave me pause. It's time for me to learn indifference. lodo
Lodo I too am in awe of your ability to remain a true friend to your W after everything. I am trying to do the same with my H, but I've come to a place where I need to be my friend first. The self respect quote really hit home today and I just wanted to say thanks for posting it. I am reaching a place where I need to reclaim this part of me.
Thanks and keep up your amazing work.
corey
M:39 H:39 K:S14;D8 T:22yr M:15yrs S:12/28/07 EA/PA 3/14/08 OW preg 11/17/08 born 12/12/08 his ~~~~~~~ Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option
You have managed to be at a place of much more detachment than I. I am struck though by some of the similarities in our sitch...another one I encountered as I read through your great summary was the emphasis on email as the vehicle for W. to communicate--at least during the whole separation process of the last 7 months. I remember telling her I preferred to talk face to face and she said email was better for her because it allowed her to reflect on things first before responding. I think it is because it is less intimate and more safe to be able to "compose her words". In conversation, many of her rationalizations and explanations didn't make a lot of sense, but she is good with words and (like your W.) able to arrange them to speak to her own view.
The independence thing is another striking similarity. Though my W. has not used this term, there is an emphasis on achieving and working her way up that has been a theme in her life. We have talked about her experience of "never quite being satisfied" with things, so in a sense she is perpetually looking outside herself for things. It's like the only place of feeling safe is when they are on their own or "independent". Problem for me is that, although I've had years of being single that have been okay, my best experiences where I feel safest and most fully "me" are when I've been in a loving, stable relationship!
Anyway, enough about me, but I wanted to comment on some of these similarities that stood out. I'm still really struggling with the whole idea of being okay without W. as inane as that must sound. You seem to be so strong on your own, lodo, I wish I had that. How did you get to that place for yourself?
Just posted on your thread but thanks for stopping by. Yes - it sounds like our Ws are doing many similar things. I hadn't really thought about the use of email as a way to avoid intimacy, but I suppose you're right. My W didn't like to discuss things at work, but wouldn't take time from her schoolwork in the evenings.
I very much hear you on the issue of W never being satisfied. My W always seemed to have these things she needed to prove. I would support her in those, but they always seemed to take their toll on our time together and I got a little tired of it. In a way she seemed to be running from herself by challenging herself. She wasn't happy being who she was, but seemed to need to constantly recreate that. Strange.
I've had the best moments within a relationship as well - I like to share things, experiences. And intimate conversation and understanding is something I place a high value on. That said, I am fine by myself. Trying to get back into the groove anyway.
keep taking care of yourself. It really does get better.
It is hard losing a best friend - we communicate together like no one I've ever encountered before. And I think she'd agree with that.