NM you said: "I was particularly aware of my desire level, and found that when I paid more attention to how I moved (stimulating various parts of my vagina by rubbing against my H's genitals) in order to feel pleasure, it heightened my interest. You might say, um, YEAH, of COURSE. I should point out that in the past, I have felt inhibited to move in order to heighten my own pleasure."
This is your KEY, honey. THIS is what he means by "exciting". When your body is excited, it wants to seek its own pleasure, and seeing each other be excited is exciting!!!
Keep doing THIS thing you did with the rubbing! Here is your gateway into your own personal sexual self.
You wrote: "The day that my wife finally "got it," after more than 20 years of marriage, was one of the most important moments in our relationship, and in my mind, absolutely crucial toward getting our relationship back on track."
I was wondering if you could elaborate on this experience for you? (Or as much as you feel comfortable). I am curious what happened -- how did she know that she "got it"? How did she communicate that to you? How were you able to trust that she actually did "get it"? What were your next steps after she "got it"?
The 'long version' of the story is here in my Original Thread to this board. The 'short version' I gave to DanceQueen not long ago when she asked:
"What was her turning point in realizing her part of the mistakes?"
After plowing through a few relationship self-help books last fall, I finally found The Sex-Starved Marriage in November, which really spoke to how I had been feeling for a very long time, but had not been able to explain well enough to her. I emailed the link to Chapter 1 to my wife from work that day, and held my breath. When I got home that evening, she met me in tears. She finally "got it." To me, this was the real turning point for her.
Just because my wife 'got it' does not mean that she always can say "yes" now: but I do trust that when she can 'Just Do It!', she will. Your husband seems to be looking for a risk-free pathway for his part, and he needs to realize that there are none. He's going to have to work at handling the occasional rejection, just as I have done, RE: my original thread here.
He also might want to seriously consider what I posted in My Latest Thread: that a soft, indirect, timid approach to asking you for sex is NOT a turn-on, and will backfire on him.
I understand all too well what rejection feels like, and the nerve required to take a risk and approach your wife in a "manly fashion" anyway, regardless of a long history of rejections. My wife says she can watch me begin tensing up from about 9:30 PM on (when the last kid has gone to bed) up until the point that I decide to ask. Of course, this is the wrong sign to give, as it makes her tense up too. Obviously (but much easier said than done) the more relaxed and confident I can be, the better the results.
Now you know why I have taken up light meditation exercises....
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I am one of those H with a LD W who has felt like giving up many times and then happy some things seem to work for a while.
nightmare Anyway, to get back to last night's discussion. My H asked me to think about several things:
3) It cannot feel like "work" or "clinical" when we're just doing it. So, you want it easy? I say do it if it feels like work or clinical. It is going to feel that way till it changes. The important thing is the change. Think of JDI as a process that leads to a result.
I was listening to a pod cast about making changes in relationships. The marriage counselor giving the pod cast said when people make changes, the first 50 times it feels like the change is forced/work/clinical and it isn’t till the 100th. Time, that the changed behavior feels natural.
3) Discuss the JDI plan with someone else he is close to and get their feedback. Have him come on the SSM forum. Men and women will help him work out some issues you both have. It works faster and better when both spouses post.
and have felt somewhat self conscious about moving/rubbing/acts that intensify my own pleasure. I think it goes back to the old feelings of "good girls don't do this". Good girls do like it. It cements the M.
I have been to several group therapy sessions and have countless women and some men refer to them self as a recovering (insert religious teachings here ) and how that “good gilrs/boys don’t,” has taken the joy out of life.
If pre and extra marital sex is a sin, so is not having sex with your spouse a sin. But, let me take the word sin out of the picture and say it is hurtful to both spouses. BTDT.
Near the end said is the MOST exciting and rewarding if I know my wife is getting pleasure from sex, I will say is the exciting and rewarding if I know my wife is getting pleasure from sex,
When she doesn’t seem to get much pleasure from sex, I feel like I baked a caked that didn’t raise, so it looks like a cookie, rather than a cake. Still enjoyable but not what I intended, so I am disappointed. I am OK with cookies if it doesn’t work for my W but cookie after cookie, and never a cake gets to be depressing.
You said you had pain. I will be blunt but try to be helpful. My W had some of the same issues. The following ideas I got mostly from reading a forum for women that had breast cancer (BC) and are now recovering from surgery, chemo, and radiation. The women used to enjoy sex but now have lost their sex drive due to medications and radiation treatments.
My W had BC and we had different sexual needs/interests, or little interests in her case.
She liked the Rabbit and some of the water based lubes I bought. After using the toy for a while, she now can relax more during sex.
I don’t have all of my facts straight but this is the short version. Another poster on DB was sown up too tight after surgery or delivery and she had to use graduated vaginal dilators. Intercourse was painful before using the graduated dilators but now she is fine. http://www.vaginismus.com/products/dilator_set
Also, many people use something like http://www.bettersex.com/Sex-Toys/sp-splash-personal-lubricant-for-women-2303.aspx even if you lube naturally. I want to encourage you to try some lubes just to determine how they help. Lubes really improved my pleasure and I know my W doesn’t have any ouch moments anymore. We started with water based lubes but still had some ouch times. Then I bought a silicone based lube ant really liked it. Water based lubes do get sticky and dry-out as time passes. Silicone lubes don’t dry-out and last a long time.
I am not your H and men/women differ so take what I say as it might or might not apply to your H. From my male POV, suppressing my sex drive is OK to a point. After that point, the sex drive turns into frustration, then resentment.
Several times I thought about staying away from my W when it came to sex. It is difficult for me to do, but I was (other men said the same thing) looking for ways to avoid sex with my W because of our sexual problems. Most attempts at having sex lead to frustrations that became so severe, what should have been joy just lead to more and more resentments and eventually to internal anger.
Short version, I wasn’t happy about my decision to avoid any situation that might lead to sex. I wasn’t happy because of all the frustrations I had when we did have crappy sex. It was a really bad time for me, mostly because of my W’s unwillingness to try anything different that might change or improve our sexual R.
Many times I was ready to file for a legal separation and live in an apartment by myself. We live in a nice home that is paid off and I was willing to live in a place that was half as nice as our current home.
If you have any questions about anything I suggested or something else from a male perspective, just ask.
Nightmare, think of it this way: is it truly your belief, when you are "rubbing your vagina against his genitals," that you are not increasing his pleasure? I promise you, no matter how much pleasure that gives you, he doesn't think you're being selfish. He thinks you're responding to him, taking pleasure from him, and giving him great pleasure in return. Having any part of his genitals rubbed with any part of yours probably a dream come true. If you don't believe it, ask him whether he'd like you to do it again.
Quote:
I should mention before I go on, that in other aspects of our relationship, I am very happy. As weird as it may sound, I feel as if I have married my soulmate. We finish each others sentences, we talk on the same wavelength, we share goals and dreams. I find him funny and endearing and nice to look at. I like to touch his skin and to cuddle in his arms. I am not afraid of him -- we are like best friends. But when it comes to intimacy, I find myself pulling back.
It's not that shocking. I could write something similar, except I'm the high-desire end of my marriage. But aside from the hurt and anger and rejection of our sex life, I love her. I'll never cheat and I'll never divorce her, but you have to understand how scary it is to say that. You as the LD wife have all power in the marriage when it comes to sex. You decide everything; he decides nothing. It's easy for him to feel like the only power he would have is the threat to leave or cheat . . . . but what if he doesn't WANT to leave? I don't. I made the choice to back away from that big gun and tell my wife right out that I'm not going to leave her whether she changes or not, but can you understand how frightening it is to give up the last shred of power that way? It might be too much for your husband right now, and yet that also means that even if he says he might leave, you don't have to take that to mean that he WANTS to leave. It doesn't have to mean there's no hope.
If pre and extra marital sex is a sin, so is not having sex with your spouse a sin.
I really do like this as I am Catholic and am currently "recovering" from the good girls dont F***! ...... or for that matter even think about or enjoy sex.
Maybe it would help YOU to look at it like that too..... we are unintentinally taught by our Parents about sex. Whether they say a word about it or not. My Mom pretty much didnt say anything either and .......... well you get the point. I personally love this cause I honestly never looked at it from this POV! An epiphany .... SEx between my H and I pleases GOD! WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO all the more reason to ML! Sorry for the hijack... got really excited when I read that!
N~
You are getting fabulous advice here.... take your time and start moving forward slowly. It took a while to get here and it will take some time to make real lasting change. I also like the 100th time way of looking at it. That does make perfect sense also. Explain to your H that it will take time to feel natural. But practice makes perfect!
Lou's post was great with all the advice.... All my best to you and your H~ Take care and God bless, ~Ali
Sorry for disappearing for a while. Much has gone on since my last posts, some good, some bad.
Probably most helpful for me, is that I've switched therapists. I came to realize after ~ 6 months that my previous therapist wasn't really helping me and that I needed to leave her. This was a difficult realization to come to and then a difficult job to execute.
From the first time my husband met PreviousTherapist (a few weeks after I did), he had been encouraging me to switch therapists. I didn't want to, because I wanted to give PreviousTherapist a chance, and thought we might be able to make it work. I saw her weekly, and tried to bare my soul. However, although I had no problems being honest and direct in sessions, I was rarely able to access my deeper emotions. I often spent time thinking about how she'd react, rather than where I'd like our therapy to go. However, I somehow felt like I was making progress (even though it could be argued that I wasn't really), which is why I didn't leave. I would go to session, work on some small thing, feel incrementally better, report back happily to my husband, who would then become even more dark and gloomy, because he felt like I was occupying my time with insignificant tasks.
It should be mentioned that conversations between my husband and myself, if he suggests that I try something that he came up with (new therapist, getting a video, making more appointments), my typical reaction (almost without thinking) is to push back or push away. I might say: "I don't think that is the case." or "Really what is important is this." or "That reminds me of something unrelated that I thought of today." or "I am really busy today, maybe tomorrow." We go in circles talking about this, with me feeling that he's becoming increasingly more bossy, and with him feeling that I am completely unwilling to take his opinion into account. He feels like I am fighting against him rather than fighting for us. Do the rest of you have interactions like this? I hate them. I feel like we're not working together, and they just escalate to more sadness and anger.
Anyway, with PreviousTherapist, I needed to decide to leave her myself, not at my husbands insistence. Ironically, what we'd been working on in therapy was what ultimately helped me to leave her. While in therapy with PreviousTherapist, I realized that I was depressed, and she helped hold my hand as I found the right meds. With the meds working, I can think more clearly and act more decisively. PreviousTherapist also pushed me hard to define my own space away from my husband, and by being able to do so, I was able to define my own space from her.
I've met with NewTherapist just once so far, but already I'm feeling more comfortable and productive. My goals in therapy these days are to come to a better understanding of my emotional side. Much of the time, I just feel sad. NewTherapist had a surprising insight that perhaps I was more comfortable with sadness than with other uncomfortable emotions. She had me explore what feelings I experience before sadness washes over me. It turns out that right before I go to sadness, I feel vulnurability and fear. I don't want to feel either of those emotions, so I either slip into sadness (somehow crying makes me feel more actively in control of my emotions) or to feeling completely blank (which makes me feel helpless).
My assignment this week was to try and sit with my vulnurability and fear. To try and hold onto them so that they don't slip away from me. If I can feel them, then I can start to get at what's causing them.
Also, I have a weak connection between my analytical and emotional sides. If I'm feeling analytical, I rarely feel emotional and vice versa. Obviously this is difficult when trying to navigate issues with LD. When experiencing the emotions that come up with sex, my analytical side would turn off, leaving me helpless. NewTherapist is trying to get me to reconnect these sides. I can see us on an emotional exploration that will be helpful for me
So, I guess that is the positive side of the past few weeks. But as always there is darkness as well. I've written a lot now, so my next post will be on darkness and difficulty.
NM - I've read so far and am waiting for your continued writing about darkness and difficulty.
I wanted to respond to this that you wrote: "It should be mentioned that conversations between my husband and myself, if he suggests that I try something that he came up with (new therapist, getting a video, making more appointments), my typical reaction (almost without thinking) is to push back or push away. I might say: "I don't think that is the case." or "Really what is important is this." or "That reminds me of something unrelated that I thought of today." or "I am really busy today, maybe tomorrow."
Yes, I have had interactions like that in the past with my current relationship...and at some point, I had to just reel myself in and say to myself "DanceQueen, what the heck are you doing?" I could literally catch myself at becoming contrary to his suggestions. (Not about the same topic, but I do know what you are talking about). My man can come across as demanding and controlling, and I think my automatic dismissal of him was sometimes my attempt to counter-act feeling controlled. But honey...when you realize that he is trying to make these suggestions FOR YOU because he loves you and he wants to see you make this work with him, maybe you can stop being contrary. Even if you are thinking something contrary, instead of saying "I don't think that is the case", say "Ok - I will think about that". PLEASE do this, you really need to. Women need to learn about their own communication pitfalls, and what you are describing is one of them. The contrary statements do NOT promote good communication, and they also do NOT promote him learning to be less controlling. You have to take that up as a separate issue (his controlling nature) and stop dealing with it in this passive-agressive way. I hope that makes sense.
Back again -- sorry for my hiatus. It is very difficult for me to write when times are bad, and then easier to write when I have some sort of discovery/revelation. I don't think this pattern is particularly helpful for me, since it's precisely at the bad times that I need the most help, and that's when I close up. Also, I have this history of only reporting the encouraging, cheerful, or easy to figure out stuff, which again is misleading, especially for my therapists.
This happened just the other day with one of my therapists. We were discussing our intimacy problems, and I talked about the usual things: emotional distance, sexual pain, discomfort with vulnerablity, etc. But I omitted one of the most difficult things right now, which has a huge effect on our intimacy: my husband's sadness.
In my previous therapy sessions, I have mainly glossed over my husbands sadness, by saying that this is "his" problem to deal with, and I have a hard enough time keeping track of my "own" problems. At the beginning, I think it was helpful for me to define "his" and "her" problems. I had a tendency to get wrapped up in my husbands feelings and felt instinctively that I wanted to help him, which had the unfortunate result of keeping my feelings deeply buried. For a long time, I was simply unable to feel my deeper thoughts-- to access these emotions and then to name them. After much therapy and some drugs, I seem to be coming to a better understanding of my emotional self, although this journey seems to have just started.
So, this brings me back to my husband's sadness. Why should this be a problem of mine, do you ask? Shouldn't he be in responsible for his own emotions? I think what I'm learning is there is increasingly fewer "his" or "her" problems, but rather a large body of "our" problems.
There are several reasons for my husband's sadness, from what I can understand (and this may be revised after more comprehension and understanding from my part). First, (and in no particular order) my husband is sad because of what we have become -- two very close friends, but more akin to brother and sister than lovers or spouses. We have been struggling with intimacy issues for almost a decade, and we're only in our 30s. He wonders whether this is just how our relationship is meant to be. Were we ever meant to be lovers? Shouldn't it be much easier than this? Sixteen year olds can figure out how to have sex happily, the whole human population survives because of reproduction -- why can't we figure it out? Perhaps it wasn't meant to be for us. These thoughts swirl around in my husband's head and make him feel despondent. I can't really answer these questions with data or facts. I don't believe that we are meant just to be brother and sister. I have felt that there is a large portion of our relationship missing, and I feel that I want that. However, I cannot give him proof of that, and the proof of inaction thus far in his mind could easily explain that I'm not sexually interested in him or in us. So, this sort of discussion usually gets us talking in circles, with my instinct to discount this theory, and his instinct to try and get at whether this is true.
The second reason why my husband is sad is one that I haven't grappled with yet. My psyche seems hell bent on moving my thoughts away from this topic. So, here goes. My husband has been going through progressive stages of hurt, frustration, anger for a LONG time. He has tried many ways to try and get us to communicate better, to try and figure out our sexual problems when they started, or a year later, or several years later. In the beginning, he was patient, then a little more urging, until finally he realized that this was affecting him deeply. He saw changes in himself, an inability to be open, a jealousy of other couples, a pulling away from me. He then pleaded with me to see how this was hurting him, how it was hurting us. He warned that he saw our relationship going in a bad direction, that it would be harmful for us, that we might no be able to bounce back. And then watched as his dire predictions started coming true.
And for the most part, for many years, I turned a deaf ear and a blind eye. I didn't confront him to say that I wasn't interested in sex, or that it bothered me, or that it worried me that we were starting to have bigger problems. Instead, like an ostrich, I preferred to keep my head buried in the sand, in order to ignore what was happening. Perhaps it was fear, perhaps it was extreme denial, perhaps it was my own need to feel safe at the expense of my partners happiness, or state of mind. And in those multiple years, I chose my my own safety over that of our relationship. I put "me" firmly and consistently ahead of "us".
I think this type of interaction is particularly bad for us. In addition to dealing with the hurt of a decade, and trying to put it behind him, my husband has difficulty trusting me in this way again. How will he know that he can be safe? How can he feel that I value our relationship if I repeatedly choose myself over us? How can I show him that I'll be better this time? And on my side, I don't understand how I spent so many years in denial, and avoiding the situation. This would have been so much easier when we were younger, without the years of hurt layered on it. Why wasn't I able to stand up for us? Why did I choose to hide myself rather than fight with my spouse? What does that mean about me? What do I need to learn so that I'm not afraid again? How can I truly apologize? These also are a large set of questions for which I have no answers.
Finally, the third sadness for today. When we have good days, with me letting go of my fears, and distance and space and enjoying the moment, now my husband is starting to feel "weird" during our intimate the situation. He feels as if we aren't "supposed" to be doing this. He describes it as akin to the feeling when you think of brother's and sister's having sex. This also of course makes him sad (refer to sadness #1), and makes him wonder whether he'll be able to go back. It also makes me sad, as I feel like I've turned him away from me,
So, these some of are some of the darknesses in our lives right now.
Edit: "Why did I choose to hide myself rather than fight with my spouse?" is probably better worded: "Why did I choose to hide myself rather than fight alongside my spouse?"
