Helping OW??

[fooled again]

At least that's what it feels like I'm doing. She calls it therapy for her - I guess it's therapy for me too. But also I'm trying to make her understand that I WILL NEVER GIVE UP ON MY MARRIAGE. But I'm jumping ahead (yes this sounds like a cheesy novel, I know).

If anyone is confused, join the club. My last thread was The Ultimatum. Some of you asked me to keep you posted, but this is a whole new encyclopedia of crazy, or maybe just another volume in the set. So I thought it deserved a new thread...

Had a couple of weeks of "piecing", then while H was away on business I sensed a shift. Tried to talk to him about it when he got back - he said he was feeling too much pressure. I said I could give him all the patience in the world as long as OW is not in the picture. He said she wasn't. We went camping for four wonderful days (his idea), but on the last day he was distant, a little testy. We came home & I had to go away for a day. While I was gone I talked to H on the phone & asked about his state of mind. He said he's still feeling pressure, he's confused, doesn't know what he wants. I pushed him, he finally said he's done w/ us & knows he has to let me go. Was I relieved? Not on your life.

I came back from my short trip, H picked me up from the airport, we had lunch together then he brought me home. I tried to keep it together but I just couldn't - I cried. He left. I called his cell a few minutes later & said I thought our M deserved a better goodbye. I guess I was looking for closure, or something. Yeah, I know, I know, bad idea but sometimes you just can't help yourself (apply 2/4 here *). He got frustrated & angry & said he'd call me later. Haven't heard from him since. Guess he's back in the tunnel - who knows how far.

I tend to go on and on in my posts so I'll stop here and post more in a bit. Trust me, it gets better & better.

FA

[MidwesternGirl]

Why are you empowering OW?

Honestly, I would not give her the time of day. She is nothing. She is a band-aid as well.

When someone does this, I do believe they are pushing a spouse further away from you.

Maybe I just don't get it but I also feel that ultimatums don't always work as the spouse who is being given the ultimatum tends to think of their spouse as being controlling, manipulative and a mommy-figure.

I would think very hard before doing these things.

[HeartScared]

I sent a friend of mine a link awhile back and there was this poem in it. She sent it back to me today. I am posting it to you.

(((FA)))

S T A R T O V E R

When you've trusted Jesus and walked his way
When you've felt his hand lead you day by day
But your steps now take you another way,
start over.

When you've made your plans and they've gone awry
When you've tried your best and there's no more try
When you've failed yourself and you don't know why,
start over.

When you've told your friends what you plan to do
When you've trusted them and they didn't come through
And now you're all alone and it's up to you,
start over.

When you've failed your kids and they're grown and gone
When you've done your best but it's turned out wrong
And now your grandchildren have come along,
start over.

When you've prayed to God so you'll know his will
When you've prayed and prayed and you don't know still
When you want to stop cause you've had your fill,
start over.

When you think you're finished and want to quit
When you've bottomed out in life's deepest pit
When you've tried and tried to get out of it,
start over.

When the year has been long and successes few
When December comes and you're feeling blue
God gives a January just for you,
start over.

Starting over means "Victories Won"
Starting over means "A Race Well Run"
Starting over means "The Lords' Will Done"

We need not just sit there ... START OVER.

[fooled again]

Okay to continue...

After a couple of hours I decided to call OW. Guess what? H had seen her a few times while we were supposedly piecing, wanted her to take him back, told her he loved her, didn't want to come back to life w/ me, couldn't stand the pressure. This was b/f his business trip - this was the shift I sensed. Remember kids, always listen to your gut. I think that feeling in your gut is actually God (or a higher being/force) trying to tell you something. Don't ignore it!

When H got back from his trip he had come straight to me, but did call her & told her he couldn't see her b/c he had D w/ him for a few days. Said he wanted to go to her cabin w/ her & would meet her there on Sun night. This convo took place while he was at his place getting some stuff for our camping trip (remember, camping trip was H's idea). H never intended to meet her at her cabin. She spent 3 days going crazy b/c he never showed. H hasn't called her since.

Okay, so now jumping forward to yesterday, I called OW & she called me back. We talked for several (maybe 3) hrs. We talked again today for about 4 1/2 hrs. OW has lots of questions, I told her I don't have the answers and I doubt H does either. She wants closure, I told her she may never get it. She wants to understand, I told her H doesn't even understand why he is doing what he does. Told her he was confused, lost, depressed, doesn't know who he is. Told her he likely can't see anything beyond himself, like he is in a room full of mirrors and it is ALL about him.

But my #1 message to her, and I repeated it several times in several different ways, was that I would never give up on H. I told her that I know that one day he will come back to me - it may take a week, a month or a year, but he will come back. She said she believes that is true and that she is really nothing (I didn't say anything to that - this is therapy, remember). I told her that H and I will always be connected by D and that she will always wonder what is going on between us. I reminded her that for the 2 1/2 yrs they have been involved, everything he has told her has been a lie. I told her that I believe H and I belong together, and that one day when he realizes where he belongs, I will be there, the door will always be open.

I guess in that moment I decided that I will stand for my marriage no matter what. But I think I will have to do it in a detached way, the way BFM did it. I don't know how long it will take, but I will never close the door on H. Go figure...

But my Ultimatum stands. When H is ready to come back to me, he must meet my conditions. I guess that is how I can stand my ground while leaving the door open. It was always up to him if he wanted to come home - I told him that it had to be his choice, not out of guilt or a sense of obligation, but he has to be ready to do the work.

So I will not call H now, but I will continue to talk to OW. She thanks me for listening to her, asks me if she can call me tomorrow. She is getting some understanding, I think, of what her R w/ my H was really all about. I know she wants to believe it was love, and I know it was love on her part, but the more we talk the more she seems to be accepting that she is only a part of a much bigger thing that H is going through. I'm not pushing the MLC idea, most people discount it as a cliche and I want her to keep talking to me.

She asked if she could call me tomorrow and I said yes, so there will be more.

FA

[MidwesternGirl]

I have heard much about conditions but then I ask myself what conditions God put on people in order for them to come to him. Nothing.

You have your way of dealing with this and of course everyone's beliefs are different.

I just do not see how having conversations with OW is beneficial. Let God deal with her. All I can say is that I know of women who have gotton involved and it just pushed their husbands further away and closer to OW.

[Creed]

fooled again

Please be careful if you truly decide to keep this 'conversation' going with OW. It's just another way of her still being part of your marriage, and it's never meant to be a party of 3.

That she wants to continue talking to you after the full discussion you've already had would make me very wary.

Sounds to me like everything that needed to be said, was said. She needs to be on her own, not using you or your H. You cannot heal her world any more than you can heal your H world.

Forgive her if you can, but then it's time for her to find her own path and her own source of strength.

I'd hate for your words to her to come back as ammo against you at a later date by your H or by her.

You said that you want her to keep talking to you. Do you mind me asking why? What are you hoping to get from these discussions with her?

What you do is always your choice, of course. I'm not judging you on that...I just truly don't understand what you're getting from it.

[HeartScared]

FA,

How do you know she is not talking to you to get info to tell your H.

Please reconsider. This is NOT healthy. She is not your responsibility.

[sooners7xchamps]

I would have to agree with steelersfan, Creed, and HeartScared.

[fooled again]

I hear you all and I do understand where you are coming from. OW and I have a bit of history - we have talked and met on several occasions. There is no animosity, no anger, no accusations. It is a very strange thing to describe and likely many of you cannot understand why or how I could be talking to her. But somehow I feel at this point in time it is the right thing to do.

OW & I had agreed the last time that we would keep in touch. We didn't. H pulled us both back into his game. My gut told me to call her a couple of weeks ago. I didn't - that was when H called her. Could I have stopped H going back to OW by keeping in touch and letting her know that H and I were piecing? Perhaps, perhaps not. But we are also two women and in some strange way there is a connection, and through that connection we share an understanding. Am I using her? Partly, but she tells me I am helping her and she is helping me. And what is so wrong with that, I have to ask? I do not feel responsible for her.

H has no idea we are talking, though the thought has likely crossed his mind. Will I tell him? Not sure. Will she? Not sure. At this point H has isolated himself from both of us (well he did just call me a few minutes ago and reached out to me, but I'll talk about that later). What will talking to OW accomplish? Well for one, she is filling in some of my blanks and I hers. But of course I don't have to defend my actions - I just have to listen to my gut.

About the ultimatum, let's just say when I gave him my letter outlining the things we needed to do to rebuild our M, I did think very long and very hard about what I was about to do. True, every sitch is different, and ButterflyMom said to me in one of her posts that sometimes you have to do what you KNOW in your heart is the right thing to do, even if it goes against everything everyone around you is telling you. Again, it's about listening to that higher force that is guiding us. We have to find our own way through this, not simply follow instructions in a book. We have to try something new, monitor results, see what is working and what is not.

Sitting back and doing nothing has gotten H and I nowhere. I knew I had to draw a line in the sand. H likely has a long way to go b/f he is out of his MLC, and he does need to work through the process himself and figure out what he wants, who he is. I need for him to understand that I respect myself enough to not let him take me for granted anymore, not let him use me and play games w/ me. If he continues to see and talk to OW, if he wants to live on his own, if he wants to keep secrets, that is entirely his choice - I am not controlling or manipulating him. I am simply saying to him, "If you want to be with me, this is what I know that I deserve, this is what I expect from my H. You can choose to walk away from that if you can't do it and I will understand. But I cannot live the way I have been living anymore. I must let you live the way you want to live and I must be true to myself."

I appreciate everyone's advice and concern, truly, as I appreciate the advice and concern I have gotten from well meaning friends. This is my M, my family and I am fighting to save it with every fiber of my being. And I will trust in God or that higher being to show me what is the right path for me to reach my goals.

FA

[mkultra]

Hi, so basically your convo with OW are like having a convo with your ex's new wife or Girlfriend. Right? Sometimes that happens. The new person seeks advice from the former flame. That happened with my Dad's OW. She woul also talk to my Mom!! But in this sitch you are competing. I say that it makes you look like a snooper and that makes her look better and weaker at the same time. It only makes you look like a snooper and makes them closer. Even if she gets intimidated by your tenacity, the WAS is seeking someone weaker to comfort. So instead of comforting you, he will comfort poor OW who is making it easier for your H. Affairs are easier than marriage sometimes. That does not create a safe path home for your H. Plus, these affairs need to die a natural death. DO NOT SNOOP. Talking to OW is R talk. Do not do that. Read DB again and again. Stop making her look good. Focus on your own life. Make yourself look good. You are precious and you deserve the best. Stop fighting for someone. Fight for your marriage , yes. But do not prolong the affair by snooping or begging or by making demands. I feel like we are in the same boat because I was also with my H for 23 years and married for ten and I am sure his OW would have loved me also, she was probably very jealous of me. As they should be. We are the wives. We are the mothers. We are the ones that people respect and admire so live like that. Put yourself on that rightful pedestal and become the spouse that people cannot believe the H would actually leave!!! I am sorry if this is not good advice but it helped me to be completely removed from my H's affair(s) because I believe the less we know. the less we have to forgive when the Hs show no contrition. Act As If. Act Happy. PMA!!!