Thanks Paul and Talista for visiting and always good to see you J! All input is very welcome. I always thought it was amazing that my W never blamed or talked about her youth (used it as an excuse so to speak) now I'm thinking that wasn't a good thing as she's never dealt with it. I don't know what the issues are, but I know there is the possibilty of sexual abuse (she says not) but her sister claims she was abused by their mothers boyfriend so who knows? There were some other very traumatic experiences that would unsettle any one. I'm apparently the cause of all this though, to which I've taken ownership of the things I've done but hope there's more to it than me. We do communicate better than we ever have and that is a real positive I think. Just this morning P, I said to her I think she would be happy with this "plutonic" relationship for ever and after reading your post I'm sure she will. She seems to think that all she needs is time to deal with things but I think she is just avoiding the issues as she always has. I've always realized it's up to her and her alone to "help" herself and it's my decision whether I stay or go ,I do need/want more from a relationship than this but I owe it to her, the children, myself to try everthing possible (earn my way out) to make this M work. It is just so incredibly frustrating to see these people struggle through life and miss all the great things it has to offer. J cooler weather on the horizon so igloo a/c turned down. C.